Axis Winter Fort Construction

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> The War Room >> Axis Winter Fort Construction

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Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/15/2021 10:56:14 PM

GibsonPete

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As the Axis player in 1941 when do you recommend the construction of forts to deal with the harsh winter? When is it too late and when is it too early?

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/15/2021 11:18:04 PM

AlbertN

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I am kind of interested in that too but I assume one will learn the hard way. By gaming!

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/16/2021 12:44:24 AM

IanW

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Do you mean forts that let you overstack divisions, or do you mean an adequate defensive line ?

In either case, the key isn't your lines, it's your supply lines and response forces.

1941-2 Soviets cannot defeat well-supplied German formations in good condition.

They can defeat freezing, starving German formations with no ammunition.

So make sure you've got that, and got some fire brigades that can free encircled troops.

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/16/2021 1:49:58 AM

GibsonPete

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IanW, I mean an adequate defense Line. When to begin constructing the level two fortifications to keep my virtual axis infantryman cozy and warm.

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/16/2021 2:18:08 AM

freeboy

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supplied troops in good order will need to be close to depot, in a city or town or fortified unit you can build a line like this from the start of mud

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/16/2021 4:31:18 AM

IanW

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Do you need them capturing victory cities before winter, or securing the rail lines that you can put depots on to supply them during the winter, or cutting off Russian armies that could be dangerous in winter ?

If you don't need to do a December offensive in the snow before the really bad winter hits, then you can start preparing winter lines earlier.

But first, map out your Depot Line. Then figure where the troops have to be to support it. Then figure where your response forces can be to rescue what units when encircled.

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/16/2021 7:47:29 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

IanW, I mean an adequate defense Line. When to begin constructing the level two fortifications to keep my virtual axis infantryman cozy and warm.

simply you can't in many places. Pushing a fort from #1 to #2 takes a fair bit of supply. Its more feasible in hexes that have an infantry division but you can't rely on the fortification units, they take 2-3 turns to fill out and then are slow to construct.

I've a game into July 42 and have started to build my rear defensive lines for 1943 hopefully a year in advance, its that sort of time scale.

IanW is right, level 2 forts are not the solution, being in decent supply is. So think of your winter lines in terms of your logistic layout and to some extent poor terrain.

My feeling is you want to get out of the winter with no lost formations - its not so much the cost of replacing their contents its that they return with dire experience levels. Most of your casualties go as wounded and it seems you get around 15-20% back in late spring.

So add that to your existing manpower reserves and bringing your front line formations up to strength is relatively easy if you take care over the refit process. In the winter, if a unit starts to get below 35% TOE get it out of the line to refit, better to see some local Soviet gains than to lose a unit or have it so run down it can't be easily recovered.

And manage your AFVs with care, get the SU formations out of the front and back in the reserve or OKH, try to preserve as many tanks as you can. You will get a lot damaged, the key is not to convert this to destroyed. And a key to that is not to get your Pzrs forced to retreat

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/16/2021 10:48:16 AM

IanW

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There's also another decision - where are you okay with the Soviets breaking through and leaving a large salient that you can cut off once the weather gets good and the German Army can operate again.

You may be better off leaving a sector weak that you have good supply lines to in Spring, in the hope several Soviet armies get enthusiastic and push forward from it.

Note this happened a lot in the original war ...

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/16/2021 12:20:25 PM

GibsonPete

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Thanks to everyone for the insight and advice. I remember the shock the first time I experienced the harsh winter turns from the original game. You have made me realize solutions for that game will not work for this one. I will examine what I can reach, what I can supply and what I can hold. The VP bonus for early capture may in fact be a sort of trap... Rostov? Again thank you for the perspective.

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Post #: 9

RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/16/2021 12:39:43 PM

freeboy

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I am not sure what you mean? I try to take kiev Smolensk and LEnn.. then push as far as feasible in south same .. then look at your rail.. if its in diss order stop in fall and build it and some forts in key places

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Post #: 10

RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/17/2021 6:49:47 AM

Kursk1943

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

IanW, I mean an adequate defense Line. When to begin constructing the level two fortifications to keep my virtual axis infantryman cozy and warm.

simply you can't in many places. Pushing a fort from #1 to #2 takes a fair bit of supply. Its more feasible in hexes that have an infantry division but you can't rely on the fortification units, they take 2-3 turns to fill out and then are slow to construct.

I've a game into July 42 and have started to build my rear defensive lines for 1943 hopefully a year in advance, its that sort of time scale.

IanW is right, level 2 forts are not the solution, being in decent supply is. So think of your winter lines in terms of your logistic layout and to some extent poor terrain.

My feeling is you want to get out of the winter with no lost formations - its not so much the cost of replacing their contents its that they return with dire experience levels. Most of your casualties go as wounded and it seems you get around 15-20% back in late spring.

So add that to your existing manpower reserves and bringing your front line formations up to strength is relatively easy if you take care over the refit process. In the winter, if a unit starts to get below 35% TOE get it out of the line to refit, better to see some local Soviet gains than to lose a unit or have it so run down it can't be easily recovered.

And manage your AFVs with care, get the SU formations out of the front and back in the reserve or OKH, try to preserve as many tanks as you can. You will get a lot damaged, the key is not to convert this to destroyed. And a key to that is not to get your Pzrs forced to retreat

Loki, do you mean only the SUs equipped with AFVs like Stus and PzJg or also the Pioneers and Arty?

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/17/2021 7:07:08 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kursk1943
...
Loki, do you mean only the SUs equipped with AFVs like Stus and PzJg or also the Pioneers and Arty?

aye, anything that fits the game definition of an AFV (there is a chart in the annex of the manual). So non-mot stuff take on a judgement basis, it will suffer no worse or no better than any other non-mot formation, but I'd get the AFV SU out. They will add almost nothing in combat, and your Stug production is relatively low but they are very useful under normal conditions

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/17/2021 8:58:00 AM

Kursk1943

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Thanks!

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/18/2021 8:14:28 AM

rob89

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Pushing a fort from #1 to #2 takes a fair bit of supply. Its more feasible in hexes that have an infantry division ...

I have some problems with this statement.

I've seen dozens of situations with a lot of infantry divisions fully supplied, unmoved, with a depot within 4-5 hexes, unable to upgrade to level 2 fort for many, many weeks (with the popup always reporting Fort 1 (0%)); despite the fact that the same depot was along green rail-line, with thousands of undistributed freight stored, and despite a lot of trucks in the pool.

It's difficult to understand ...

IMHO, the supply system and the AI logistic priority management are too opaque...

best regards

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/18/2021 8:18:57 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: rob89

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

Pushing a fort from #1 to #2 takes a fair bit of supply. Its more feasible in hexes that have an infantry division ...

I have some problems with this statement.

I've seen dozens of situations with a lot of infantry divisions fully supplied, unmoved, with a depot within 4-5 hexes, unable to upgrade to level 2 fort for many, many weeks (with the popup always reporting Fort 1 (0%)); despite the fact that the same depot was along green rail-line, with thousands of undistributed freight stored, and despite a lot of trucks in the pool.

It's difficult to understand ...

IMHO, the supply system and the AI logistic priority management are too opaque...

best regards

that the infantry division is 'fully supplied' (and a reasonable question is whether this is the case - I rarely have units at 100%) is not the issue here, the fortification (or airfield or depot) building process needs additional supply over and above what is claimed by the units.

So you may well have reasonably supplied units, the question is do you have the excess for fort building? The other bit to bear in mind is there are constraints on where a fort will be improved from 1 to 2 (unless a FZ is present)

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/18/2021 8:47:14 AM

rob89

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

that the infantry division is 'fully supplied' (and a reasonable question is whether this is the case - I rarely have units at 100%) is not the issue here, the fortification (or airfield or depot) building process needs additional supply over and above what is claimed by the units.

So you may well have reasonably supplied units, the question is do you have the excess for fort building? The other bit to bear in mind is there are constraints on where a fort will be improved from 1 to 2 (unless a FZ is present)

I know.

But the question is : why the near depot with thousands of undistributed freight (and the possible use of trucks from the pool) don't supply the excess resources for fort building?

In a 10+ hexes or so frontline there could be some constraints, but it's impossible that all the hexes keep reporting, for many and many turns, Fort 1 (0%)...

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/18/2021 11:39:47 AM

carlkay58

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Are the infantry divisions attached to an Assault Command? Because they can't fortify past level 1.

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/18/2021 2:05:12 PM

GibsonPete

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"Are the infantry divisions attached to an Assault Command? Because they can't fortify past level 1."

Good call. Perhaps there are no attached construction units? Many reasons why they do not progress beyond Level 01.

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Post #: 18

RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/18/2021 5:27:24 PM

Joel Billings

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Different Fortification Levels have particular requirements and constraints: Fortification Levels 2 or 3: Must either be 1) adjacent to an enemy hex, or 2) a City/Urban/Heavy Urban terrain hex, or 3) contain a port (of any size), or 4) contain a fortified zone unit in the hex.

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All understanding comes after the fact.
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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 8/18/2021 6:18:38 PM

GibsonPete

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Bingo. A question answered.

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 1/8/2022 6:55:49 PM

hpalmer

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where is a good line to hold on for the axis in winter of 41? I have taken Leningrad & Moscow and hold a line roughly down to Stalino in late September. I can push forward to hold in front of the double rail line Rostov-Voronezh-Ryazan-Moscow-Yaroslav, but worry it is too far forward. I have rail currently about to Stalino, a loop around Kursk & Orel, and a Loop approaching Moscow from the north (Leningrad double rail), and a line stalled at Smolensk. There is so little good defensive ground in armeegruppe center and south, and while river lines look attractive, they obviously freeze eventually. Up north I resist the urge to default to river lines and try to focus on heavy woods and swamp, but there just isnt a clear line to from center to south that screams: Dig in here!

For defense, traditionally I have liked to create Corps sized "diamond" positions with 3 divisions up like >, and 1 behind in the middle either on reserve or refit with the Corps HQ, with a depot within 3 hexes if possible. In Wite1 I built the fort units, but am noticing here the fort construction seems achingly slow to get to level 2 so I'm not sure if I should use the fort units to speed up progress to level 2 forts. I leave 1 hex gaps on either side of these corps boxes, between corps, ideally the gaps are clear terrain. This way the enemy is enticed into entering and I clobber with deliberate attacks periodically...

Not sure if I need to rethink my approach and I definitely am struggling to master the logistics. I will eventually park rail repair units for super-depots, but even with a really healthy rail network, never using AI depot assist and having depots all over the map on hexes with railyards, with depot priorities set to zero unless within 4 depots of the front, then 1, 2, 3, rarely 4 unless end of line in critical area, I am getting a pittance of supply up. I have sent all bombers and recon to reserve, all axis allies to Soviet garrison, some armor/motorized will go to reserve and rest in cities like moscow, leningrad, kharkov, kursk, stalino, dtown. Still cant get more than 15-20% of the supplies I need. I have Leningrad ports and railyards mostly repaired, so thought that would help a lot more, but just isn't really, even with rail through Courland and then out of Leningrad via double rail towards moscow repaird, so both sea and rail connections to Germany. I have reset all infantry armies to supply priority 1 and armor/motor armies to 2, I have plenty of truck reserves. Open to ideas on what I'm missing and would love thoughts on how to better dig in for winter!

< Message edited by hpalmer -- 1/8/2022 6:57:47 PM >

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RE: Axis Winter Fort Construction - 1/8/2022 8:53:19 PM

OberGeneral

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Watch XTRG's Campaign video. Especially Episode 18 - Digging in for Winter.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbSx_b5pOYvG6tVOHAWVx62KUIocSw-dz

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Post #: 22