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Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong?

 
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Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/15/2020 5:26:28 AM   
GeneralDad

 

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Joined: 1/7/2018
Status: offline 		I am trying to start the Normandy invasion scenario.

The Axis is getting air superiority over the transports and the hexes leading in. They have higher interdiction values at sea. I have tried large A/S missions - after that did not work - even adding most of the fighters from 8th Air Force in on A/S. 677+360+141 fighters in 3 overlapping superiority A/Ds covering the Seine River Bay & still the Axis has effective air superiority. I am not sure that I can even find many more fighter aircraft so as to add more in. What could I be doing wrong to have the Germans have air domination over my sea lanes?

Thought I had air more or less figured out - but this has me baffled.

Gen Dad.




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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/16/2020 5:34:45 AM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		Continuing on a similar air theme theme:

I am beginning to suspect that the air morale system is in some way broken, or perhaps very hard to understand. Playing the Allies now in the May start scenario, turn 1 air results here. US 9th Air Force starts with similar morale and experience than RAF 2nd TAC. The spreads are wider for RAF 2nd TAC – but the averages look about the same. 2nd Tac has some units that are lower and higher; the US units seem to have morale and experience in a tighter range. Both appear to be mostly the same in game terms of scenario starting morale and experience.

After running my A/Ds, here is what I get after the German flight phase. Six large US groups with morale below 30 (2 at 19), but only a pilot loss rate of 2.2% in these units. Only 4 of the smaller 2nd RAF TAC squadrons are below 40 morale, and all of these are above 30; in spite of a pilot loss rate of 17% in those units. National air morale is the same – so what gives here? It appears almost impossible to keep the tough P-47s flying despite good US pilot training as represented by the experience and moral values in the game.

One RAF unit lost 6 of 16 pilots, yet retains higher morale than US units that lost zero or no more than 3 of 75 pilots. In the primary ground attack directives for each HQ, the US loss rate was 0.54%; for the RAF it was 3.12% for the week.

The “Air Execution Phase Summary” dialog does not agree with the losses posted on screen in the A/D boxes (prior to hitting turn 1 end). This is either confusing or a bug, but it also shows a lower loss rate for the US aircraft vs the RAF 2nd TAC.

Interestingly, with escorted bombers deep into Northern Germany, the 8th US Air Force is not having these problems. The two lowest resulting morale values are 45 and 59. Why is it especially tough to keep morale up for US 9th Air Force despite low losses?

Gen. Dad


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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/16/2020 7:31:30 AM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		I may have discovered what I did wrong in the second post - moved too many air units to new bases in England and the supply and support could not keep up.

So I will try moving many fewer air units. Air supply of the bases receiving new planes also helps.

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/16/2020 5:47:27 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Status: offline 		There are two things that can cause the problem you're seeing:

1. Based on with little or no supply and 0% TOE, as you mentioned;
2. Moving groups to farther bases so that their Travel % gets above 10% or 15%, in which case they won't fly the first few days of the turn and possibly not at all during the week.

Try to find empty bases that have supply and TOE in SE England, and consolidated the NP groups into a few bases and the Rec groups into another few bases, then move your FB's into their empty bases.

If you have to move into no supply/0% TOE bases in turn 1, make sure you manually change the desired TOE% in those bases to 100% in order to accelerate the process of resupply.

Cary

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/16/2020 5:48:50 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Status: offline 		Are you also flying PA and TB Naval Patrol AD's over those hexes, in both Friendly and Enemy phases? And flying the Air Superiority AD's in both phases?

Cary

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/16/2020 5:53:36 PM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		Seems like both of these may be my bad - caused by trying a mass reorg of air basing on T1 & poor choices of air base to move to - empty ones with no support - hoping the support would just show up. I wanted more fighter escorts & less miles and fatigue - but I went too far in re-basing air units.

Thus:
Seems OK to trade within a command to move shorter range a/c up front.
-- or nationality?
Check air base support and supply - move of units are ok if the support exists
-- or at least is close to what is needed?
Set air base TOE and let some support show up before moving air craft in.

I moved to the May start scenario so that I can have a few turns to reorg the air forces. Slowly & making sure bases are prepared with support so my air force does not crash maintenance and moral. So much depth to this game...

May start may also help lower LW morale some.

Gen. Dad

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/16/2020 5:57:28 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Status: offline 		How many days a week are you flying 9th US AF? You should only fly three days per week for any bombing AD, possibly four in an invasion turn. If you have strong Air Superiority over the areas your FB's are bombing, you fly them 3/5/7 days, and you're flying from warm and cozy (and well-supplied) based in Southern England, you should maintain at least 55% morale at the end of each turn.

Also, get into the habit of resting ALL air groups except those flying Ground Support, Naval Patrol, or Air Superiority after your friendly air phase, then reactivating to Day/Night before you initiate your own Air phase. Air groups will recover more morale and fatigue during the enemy turn if they're rested during that turn.

You can do this easily by going to the Commander's Report Air Groups tab, then toggling through the Air Directives one by one, and changing Mission Setting to 4-Rest, and that will rest all the groups in that type of Mission.

See screenshot.

Cary




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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/16/2020 6:09:40 PM   
cfulbright

 

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quote:

Thus:
Seems OK to trade within a command to move shorter range a/c up front.
-- or nationality?
Check air base support and supply - move of units are ok if the support exists
-- or at least is close to what is needed?
Set air base TOE and let some support show up before moving air craft in.


You've got it. You no longer get penalized for having a mismatch between the air base's HHQ and the air groups HQ, so don't worry about nationality or HQ. Also, if you move all the NP's out of an air base and then move 9th AF FB's into it for example, the game automatically changes the base's HQ to match. It doesn't change the nationality of the base, but only the truly OCD like me care about that.

Cary

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/17/2020 10:07:15 PM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		Cary: thanks for all of your ideas.

I have generally solved the naval interdiction problem with major naval ADs. I maintain an edge in the German turn and regain control in mine. But - I still have a problem. Naval HQs are taking 12-40 damage on T2. They won't last long at this rate. Actual Allied loses seem to be 119/6939 ships of all types thru August; so my loss seems pretty extreme. My RAF coastal AF naval AD is one big blob - should I separate TBs from Patrol Bombers?

I did not think of resting bombers in the alt phase - thanks. How will this affect auto-naval patrol for u-boats for example?. Generally I fly 2-4 bombing days - depending on distance to target and how fatigue and morale are running. Bombing seems to be working OK for me. I even hit hard at the 4 major Ploesti oil and fuel tiles with P51-B10s and B24s & minimal losses.

Please how do I fix the losses to the Naval HQs? They won't be able to stay at the beaches long at this rate. I need to look up Mulberrys now.

Tks, Gen Dad

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/17/2020 10:10:04 PM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		BTW: do you have a game save of how you handled a Normandy invasion?

Thanks.

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/17/2020 10:33:08 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Status: offline 		Naval TF's shouldn't be taking 40 damage in one turn. Are you leaving them next to heavily fortified German hexes? Try to move them so they're still next to the beaches but not touching German fortified hexes. And make sure you have VERY heavy air superiority over the invasion beaches. It could be that German NP's are causing the damage. You should start your own NP and AS AD's over the invasion area in turn 1, even in the May game.

There's something in the tutorial that says you should naval embark the follow-on units and corps HQ and park them at sea behind the invasion units. THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE. They take naval damage. I embark them, but then put them back in friendly ports. This has the advantage of taking the hit in MP's for the embarkation during the invasion turn without exposing them to damage.

Capture ports and get those Mulberries built and you can start rotating the TF's back home for repair. Send them to the largest English port you can find, such as Liverpool (8), Newcastle, Cardiff, and Chatham (all size 6). They repair faster in those. Also, once you return a TF to port and leave it there for a turn, it sheds the attached cargo and transport ships, so when you bring it back offshore your landing hex, you suffer less ship losses. BUT remember, you have to maintain a TF off those landing beaches every turn in order to maintain the Temp Port, so that's why you should 1) capture real ports, 2) build mulberries (and assign a Construction unit to maintain and repair them), and 3) rotate the TF's back and forth.

If you have bombers assigned to Strategic Bombing AD's they won't fly auto naval patrols anyway.

I mix PA and TB's, but keep in mind that some of those aircraft have low max altitudes. I think 16K' is the max for Sunderlands and maybe some of the TB's. Someone suggesting keeping them at 5K' below interceptor altitudes, but the one time I tried this my NP's took heavier losses. What are you using for loadouts in your Naval units? I use maximum mines and the PA's, and torpedoes on the TB's, preferably the 21" ones.

I haven't played the Normandy invasion in ages, so don't have a save game to show.

Cary


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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/17/2020 10:49:18 PM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		Wow, great info.

The Naval units are taking 12-40 damage on the invasion turn - historical Normandy invasion - so I don't get the chance to move them before they get hammered.

I have always wondered about the embark thing. I a not using mines for the naval loadouts - torpedos - but not mines. I can try that.

"You should start your own NP and AS AD's over the invasion area in turn 1, even in the May game." Why - please what good do these ADs T1 do for T3 or T4? I was covering my bombing area with some AS where possible...

"I haven't played the Normandy invasion in ages, so don't have a save game to show." I am a little worried that patches messed with the invasion somehow. The June start with AI air should not get hammered at sea - but it does.

Gen Dad.

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/18/2020 1:40:43 AM   
cfulbright

 

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quote:

"You should start your own NP and AS AD's over the invasion area in turn 1, even in the May game." Why - please what good do these ADs T1 do for T3 or T4? I was covering my bombing area with some AS where possible...

Naval interdiction points build up over turns, so the earlier you start naval interdiction, the less damage your TF's and invasion units should suffer.

Cary

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/18/2020 5:57:24 PM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		Hi Cary,

"Naval interdiction points build up over turns, so the earlier you start naval interdiction, the less damage your TF's and invasion units should suffer."

Thanks - I did not know that. Trying a redo of the scenario with your recomendations.

Gen Dad.

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/19/2020 7:44:19 AM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		Cary - I thank you for your comments- but a you seem to have not tried this scenario in a while - I think that Naval interdiction is broken with the latest patches. I have tried a lot, still get only modest interdiction superiority at sea and amphib unit losses are way above historical norms. I did manage minor Naval superiority in the Seine Bay.

Examples: Play D-Day start as Allies - Use AI Air - Axis takes control of naval interdiction in the Seine Bay. Play Axis, there was no anti-invasion AI air button that I could find; let AI do the air and the Allies control the Naval interdiction - big time. Player AI support lacks something the game has internally. Considering the Allies lost only 119 vessels of all types in a fleet of 6939 off Normandy from June-Aug 1944; the naval unit attrition per week is way too high - even with what I think are decent player designed air directives. It is extremely difficult for the Allied player to control sea hexes around Normandy even to a modest degree; even with a carefully developed (not AI) air plan from the May start. Dozens of air directive combos have to be tried and I finally got a small Allied sea and air superiority off Normandy. I don't remember the naval interdiction problem from past versions - but Steam won't let me downgrade to try it.

Time to wait for a patch?

Gen Dad.

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/19/2020 5:02:30 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Status: offline 		What version on you on? Latest is 1.02.59, and I doubt there will be another patch any time soon.

I'll try to find time to play a few turns of the May 1944 scenario and see what happens. Probably not until this weekend.

Cary

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/19/2020 8:12:27 PM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		I am on the latest at 1.02.59; Steam auto-updates and won't allow me to try older releases anymore.

Really fast you can play the D-Day start from both sides for 1 turn and see what I am observing with AI air from both sides. It will also be interesting what you get from a May start. Always possible I have an air error - but I have tried a lot of combos.

Cheers and Thanks, Gen Dad.

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/23/2020 3:43:53 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Status: offline 		Gen Dad,

I tried the May 1944 campaign, but the scenario I have doesn't have any amphib targets and the inf. divs aren't even in three of the five ports. The date on my scenario is Jun 2019.

Did you have the same thing, or do I have a bad scenario somehow?

Cary




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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 11/23/2020 9:15:41 PM   
GeneralDad

 

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Joined: 1/7/2018
Status: offline 		Your scenario is OK. You need to move the invasion divs on t1 and set invasion targets and para drops. In Normandy, it will give you 70+ prep points by t2 for amphib. There is a bug - go to the editor and shove the Br static divs aside - one misclick and they join the invasion.

Best of Luck,
Gen Dad.

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 12/14/2020 11:30:01 PM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		Once one has bombed the ports and has a decent air plan, here is what I believe to be the main issues that cause excessive Allied losses at sea in the invasion:

1. H2 293 glide/rocket bomb, radio controlled. It was a deadly weapon, but by the time of Normandy the Allies had developed effective jamming equipment against it. It has a very high accuracy in the database, and it appears that jamming either does not exist in the game or is not well applied. Cutting, dramatically, the accuracy of this weapon goes a long way to eliminate the excessive at-sea losses. I feel reducing this weapon's accuracy is justified due to the jamming equipment.

2. German pilot quality is actually higher than Allied (75 vs 70 on the main editor tab), in spite of low training hours and the extremely high losses of the previous year and a half. German training hours keep declining and have been much less than Allied training hours since October of 1942. See: https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/AAF/AAF-Luftwaffe/AAF-Luftwaffe-8.html by W. Murray, PhD. German losses in fighters were 167% in the first half of 1943, 174% in the second and a staggering 251% in the first half of 1944. Not many of the old guard have survived this and the new pilots since Oct 1942 have mediocre training to what has become by mid-43 quite poor training. They suffer especially low hours in high performance types. W. Murray states this about the newer German pilots: "Allied flyers, in their overwhelming numbers, were shooting down German pilots before they could crash their aircraft"; such is the poor quality of training. Murray's commentary justifies reducing German pilot quality and increasing Allied.

3. Numerous Allied Coastal Patrol aircraft lack historical naval loadouts such as torpedos, depth charges and mines. This is a longer subject than I have time for now, but just having bombs in some aircraft limits their naval interdiction. I have a number of links on this if anyone is interested.

I don't think game play alone will give a historical result at sea in Normandy.

Gen Dad.

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 12/14/2020 11:43:25 PM   
cfulbright

 

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Status: offline 		Gen Dad,

I haven't played a 1944 scenario in years except for the May 1944 scenario I ran through two weeks ago to test your observations. I only point out that if you play the 1943 campaign (particularly my favorite, the AAHQ campaign), by May/June 1944 the Luftwaffe is, indeed, a shell of its former self, and the maritime interdiction results are very different from what you and I experienced in the May 1944 campaign.

Cary

< Message edited by cfulbright -- 2/21/2021 8:29:58 PM >

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 2/21/2021 6:15:21 PM   
GeneralDad

 

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Status: offline 		Cary -

I went ahead and started playing the 43-45 campaign. As you note, the Allied player can cripple the LW and my May '44 Normandy invasion has met little air or sea interdiction response. The issue is the May and June '44 start scenarios, but given a year to crush the AI LW in the '43-'45 game, the Allied player is set for the invasion. You are correct about the different results for the different scenarios.

Gen Dad.

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RE: Normandy - German Air Superiority - What's Wrong? - 8/17/2021 2:51:28 AM   
IanW

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GeneralDad



I don't think game play alone will give a historical result at sea in Normandy.

Gen Dad.


It won't.

The core of the problem is that the game designers buffed the absolute hell out of the Germans anti-sea capability, and completely nerfed Allied sea capabilities.

There is various ahistorical bullshit that can be done to work around this, but basically - yeah. WiTW assumes the RN and USN are off drinking lead paint, and that the Germans got hold of a bunch of 1980s-era anti-shipping missiles.

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