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Why are aircraft range circles so short?

 
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Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/19/2021 8:10:09 PM   
76mm


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From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		I'm no WWII air expert, but was looking at the air range circles and didn't understand why they are so short...

For instance, the Soviet I-16 has a range of "385" according to the equipment DB in the game, but the air circle only has a radius of 7 hexes (70 miles). I'm not sure what the "385" is supposed to represent (385 miles operating radius? One-way distance? Kilometers?), but whatever it is, 70 miles seems very short. Same issue for the other aircraft I looked at: the I-153 (10 hex radius / 100 miles) and MiG-3 (14 hex radius / 140 miles).

While I might be wrong, as far as I can tell from other sources, the I-16, I-153, and MiG-3 have operating ranges (ie, there and back) of 320 km, 250 km, and 330 km respectively...not sure if these figures are right or not, but all of them seem much longer than the range circles in WitE2. While I suppose the range circles might be short to reflect use as "patrol areas", which I guess involves a lot of circling around, seems like in many cases, such as defending fighters vectoring in on a reported bomber formation, or an attacking formation heading to a specific target, straight line distances should be used...

Can anyone shed any light on what's going on with the aircraft range circles?
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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/19/2021 9:46:15 PM   
Darojax


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/29/2011
Status: offline 		Yeah, I am also quite confused.


Let's look at the Bf 109E-7

The ingame combat range circle shows 'combat range' to be 100 miles (10 hexes). Wikipedia says the combat range is 186 miles.
The aircraft info tab when checking an airgroup it says aircraft 'radius' is 143 miles. Havent been able to figure out what this means.
On the equipment tab in the Commanders Report the 'Range' is 429 (miles?). Wikipedia says transfer range is 410 miles, so might be that.

I've just checked with an Air Superiority directive, and indeed the ingame max combat range is 10 hexes, 100 miles (escort range being 75 miles?).


Yeah, having checked a handful of aircraft I'd say their ranges are way too low ingame. Radius and range is mentioned on at least two places, both with different values. And none of them correspond with the on-map visible combat radius of the aircraft.

< Message edited by Darojax -- 8/19/2021 9:51:06 PM >

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/19/2021 10:20:03 PM   
Darojax


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/29/2011
Status: offline 		After having looked at this for a while and talking over with a friend, it seems the fighter aircraft are using the escort range when calculating max range for an Air Superiority Directive. So not only are the ingame aircraft radius stated on the airgroup aircraft tab lower than real life equivalent aircraft, they are also limited to only 75% of that ingame stated radius.

< Message edited by Darojax -- 8/19/2021 10:27:17 PM >

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/19/2021 10:26:20 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		What you are seeing is for air units set to Fighter, it's showing escort range (which is 75% of combat range). If you take a fighter and change it to bomber mission, it will start showing the combat range.

I don't know this for sure, but it's possible that AS missions are only allowed out to escort range, as the fighters need to have time to patrol the area.

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/19/2021 10:30:09 PM   
Darojax


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Status: offline 		Aaalright, I suppose that works! Thanks Mr Billings. : )

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/19/2021 10:34:37 PM   
Darojax


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< Message edited by Darojax -- 8/19/2021 10:45:17 PM >

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/19/2021 11:16:06 PM   
Darojax


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Status: offline 		Okay, so after having been corrected with the help of Mr Billings I feel I may be able to explain. : )


Let's take the I-16 Type 18:

Equipment on Commanders Report says 354 miles range. (Max range, one way trip.) It's not the easiest to confirm this value, but flyingheritage.org says range: 248 miles, 435 miles with drop tanks (which do not exist ingame). 354 miles seem like a decent tradeoff.

Airgroup Aircraft tab radius says 118 miles. This is the combat range. Combat range equals max range divided by 3. 354/3=118

Setting the airgroup to Bomber mission, and removing its loadout, gives the max combat range of 118 miles (11 hexes).

Setting the airgroup to Fighter mission the aircraft will be limited to escort range, 75% of the combat range: 118x0.75=88,5 miles (8 hexes), again checks out.


If the various initial values, rules and percentages are realistic can of course be discussed, but at least this clears it up to me how it works ingame, and makes sense.

< Message edited by Darojax -- 8/19/2021 11:20:39 PM >

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/20/2021 12:40:10 AM   
76mm


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Status: offline 		Darojax and Joel, thanks for the feedback, and Darojax, thanks for doing all the calculations, probably would have taken me ages to figure that out...

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/20/2021 12:57:27 AM   
Darojax


Posts: 536
Joined: 4/29/2011
Status: offline 		Yah. To put it simple you get the max range checking the Commanders Report Equipment.

Then fighter duty range is 25% of that.
And Bomber range is 33% (minus penalties for loadout weight).

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/20/2021 1:13:09 AM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
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Status: offline 		Darojax, I don't see any plane specs on flyingheritage.org...do they have a database of aircraft specs such as range, or were you just able to pull the data for the I-16?

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/20/2021 9:03:41 AM   
Darojax


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Status: offline 		Just found the data in a wall of text. : ) Google search.

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/20/2021 11:56:44 AM   
Denniss

 

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Status: offline 		Hmmm, I might need to look into I-15/-16 fuel and range data again.
They won't get DTs but should get a proper range on internal fuel

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/20/2021 12:01:50 PM   
Darojax


Posts: 536
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Status: offline 		To add to this, for the purpose of GROUND SUPPORT, escorting aircraft seem to be able to utilize their full combat range (33% of max), so longer than when on AIR SUPERIORITY (25% of max), or escorting during GROUND ATTACK (25% of max).

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/20/2021 6:00:15 PM   
76mm


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quote:

Hmmm, I might need to look into I-15/-16 fuel and range data again.
They won't get DTs but should get a proper range on internal fuel

Would be great, thanks.

Personally I always get frustrated when trying to research aircraft ranges online, because the number is usually just labelled "range," and it is completely unclear whether the figure is "transfer range" (ie, one-way), "operating radius" (ie, there-and-back), "combat radius" (there a back with a bit of zooming around in between) or what... Not to mention assumptions about whether the aircraft is loaded or not, etc.

< Message edited by 76mm -- 8/20/2021 6:01:22 PM >

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/20/2021 6:05:43 PM   
Denniss

 

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Status: offline 		gets even more complicated if aux fuel or droptanks are included without mentioning it.
transfer range on internal fuel would be ideal.

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RE: Why are aircraft range circles so short? - 8/20/2021 6:17:18 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
Joined: 5/2/2004
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		Yeah, I kept expecting to find some kind of online database with consistently-formatted data. Hahaha...no luck so far!

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