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Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 11:56:22 AM

squatter

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I've got to say I have serious issues with the way the game handles weather.

The start point for our understanding of the weather in the game is that we don't get a weather table, nor do we get an in-game forecast. So we are left to follow our gut, and hopefully expect the weather in the game more or less corresponds to reality.

However, it really doesn't in many cases, to a rather absurd and immersion-breaking level.

My main issues fall in North Africa/Med, and Western Europe.

The�weather in French North Africa seems more like Scotland. I'm in a game and it's April 11, and I've had I think two turns of rain followed by a turn of heavy rain in Morocco,�more or less shutting down military operations (weather which includes Casablanca on the coast). A quick peek at Wikipedia shows Casablanca in March/April experiences less rain than Rome in June. Yet here I am experiencing conditions there as if it was central Russia in November. The same turn I have heavy rain in Athens. Athens in April experiences less rain than Rome in June or August.

When you are trying to execute plans according to how you understand what the reality of the weather probably should be in a region like this, and then absurd weather thwarts them, it's rather frustrating, and breaks immersion.�

Western Europe is my other issue (to a lesser extent), where the winter/spring/autumn weather feels more like Norway than W Europe. I'm talking UK/France/Benelux and Germany to lesser extent.

There seems to regularly be weeks of snow across these regions in winter, and incessant rain and heavy rain through spring and autumn. Last game I had snow across the UK in April. I live in the UK. I've seen maybe 12 days of serious snow in the last four years.

Thoughts on solutions:

- French N Africa - seriously take a look at the weather model here. It should be massively toned down at least in Spring/Autumn

- Western Europe - heavy rain should be very rare. Snow even rarer. Rain in developed countries such as France/UK shouldn't have the same impact on movement as it does in rural Russia, at least when in friendly terrain (rain doesn't really reduce marching speed when you are marching on roads). There could be an intermediate weather condition (perhaps 'overcast') that impedes air operations but not really ground operations that could replace some of the rain/heavy rain turns in Spring/Autumn)

- Weather table/weather forecast. Either publish the weather table, or give players some kind of weather forecast. Such a forecast wouldn't have to be 100% accurate, but give you a sense of whether bad weather is on the way.

Post #: 1

RE: Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 12:29:50 PM

ago1000

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D

< Message edited by ago1000 -- 1/5/2021 9:08:46 PM >

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RE: Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 12:48:30 PM

squatter

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What an eminently sensible place to put them - really helpful to any new player! It's hidden info like this that infers further unfair advantages to experienced players over less experienced ones.

And still doesn't solve the underlying issue of the absurd weather patterns.

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Post #: 3

RE: Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 6:46:01 PM

AlvaroSousa

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The manuals location is a standard Matrix format.

On the main WarPlan forum the 4th link down has the link you want. I changed the name to make it more obvious what it is to avoid this confusion with new players in the future. Thanks for bringing this subject to my attention.

< Message edited by AlvaroSousa -- 1/5/2021 6:52:36 PM >

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Post #: 4

RE: Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 7:02:08 PM

squatter

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Thanks Alvaro.

What do you think about the incredibly inclement weather in French N Africa and W Europe?

Edit - I should add I had no idea these files existed. Most players will come to the game and expect the manual has all necessary game info. I would recommend either adding weather info etc to the manual, or have a big pointer at the top of the manual to any other assets players need to understand the game's mechanics.

< Message edited by squatter -- 1/5/2021 7:04:47 PM >

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Post #: 5

RE: Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 9:34:31 PM

OxfordGuy3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
There seems to regularly be weeks of snow across these regions in winter, and incessant rain and heavy rain through spring and autumn. Last game I had snow across the UK in April. I live in the UK. I've seen maybe 12 days of serious snow in the last four years.

Am not disagreeing with any of your points, but we get a lot less snow in the south of the UK now than we did even 10 or 20 years ago, due to climate change. I imagine there was a bit more in the 1940s, though snow in the UK in April ought to be a very rare event. The nearest we've had to that in recent years would have been the freak "mini Beast from the East" towards the end of March in 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_British_Isles_cold_wave

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Post #: 6

RE: Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 10:27:30 PM

AlvaroSousa

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I think I will merge them

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Post #: 7

RE: Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 10:32:34 PM

AlvaroSousa

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What is the issue with North Africa?

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Post #: 8

RE: Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 10:44:25 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

What is the issue with North Africa?

quote:

The�weather in French North Africa seems more like Scotland. I'm in a game and it's April 11, and I've had I think two turns of rain followed by a turn of heavy rain in Morocco,�more or less shutting down military operations (weather which includes Casablanca on the coast). A quick peek at Wikipedia shows Casablanca in March/April experiences less rain than Rome in June. Yet here I am experiencing conditions there as if it was central Russia in November. The same turn I have heavy rain in Athens. Athens in April experiences less rain than Rome in June or August.

Well, as I say - there's an unbelievable amount of rain/heavy rain in French North Africa in the game during Spring.

People go to Morocco in Jan/Feb for some nice weather these days. I've been there in Nov and was lovely. Southern Spain in Feb/March is very nice. Sure you get some rain - sometimes heavy - but it's isolated bursts. A few days here and there. I've just experienced six game weeks of weather bad enough to basically shut down military operations in Morocco in March/April. It's completely unrealistic.

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Post #: 9

RE: Issues with weather - 1/5/2021 10:58:01 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OxfordGuy3

quote:

ORIGINAL: squatter
There seems to regularly be weeks of snow across these regions in winter, and incessant rain and heavy rain through spring and autumn. Last game I had snow across the UK in April. I live in the UK. I've seen maybe 12 days of serious snow in the last four years.

Am not disagreeing with any of your points, but we get a lot less snow in the south of the UK now than we did even 10 or 20 years ago, due to climate change. I imagine there was a bit more in the 1940s, though snow in the UK in April ought to be a very rare event. The nearest we've had to that in recent years would have been the freak "mini Beast from the East" towards the end of March in 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_British_Isles_cold_wave

Yes of course you are right climate change is real and no doubt our winters are slightly less harsh today than 60 years ago. I don't doubt that.

But in the game the UK/France/Benelux is carpeted with Siberian-level snow regularly from Nov - April in the game.

I'm no meteorologist, but here's a link to an abstract from nature magazine;

https://www.nature.com/articles/145376a0

It's about the the 'severe winter of 1939-40', which according to the article ran for around 6 weeks through Jan to mid Feb. In the game, I'm not sure you'll ever see March without snow in the UK, and lucky if you don't see some in April.

"THE frost which began on December 27, 1939, and continued with few intermissions until about February 18, 1940, was the most severe in Great Britain since 1895."

I think at least 50% of the turns we see currently as snow in Western Europe should be cold.

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Post #: 10

RE: Issues with weather - 1/6/2021 2:32:47 AM

AlvaroSousa

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Severe weather is Blizzard in the game. Snow means it is very cold with snow or possibly rain. Cold means it is cold weather but a clear sunny day which doesn't affect combat except you can't invade.

So don't think of the weather as something specific all the time. It is a representation of some days just weren't reliable enough to conduct an offensive. If it was the Germans would have invaded in March 1940, March 1941 and the Allies would have invaded in April 1944.

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
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Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 11

RE: Issues with weather - 1/6/2021 11:23:12 AM

squatter

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I understand what you're saying about bad weather in W Europe, it's probably more the labelling of the weather as opposed to the effect of the weather that's the problem. Although my point about units slogging two hexes at a time across friendly territory in the rain in England when they could march/drive on the roads without any significant hinderance still stands.

But that's not the thing that's really bugging me. What's really bugging me is French N Africa.

Update; for the fourth turn in a row, it's rain across Morocco, making military operations impossible. It's now April 25.

So for all of March and April, Morocco has been a quagmire, on a par with central Russia in November.

Climate data for March and April in Morocco in reality is that the weather is generally very nice indeed, on a par with Rome in June or August.

Yet here I am sitting in my panzers for two months getting poured on with rain unable to really do anything.

To put your 'when did they time their operations during the war' test to this scenario:

The Allies landed in Morocco for Operation Torch in November, fighting through to May to clear Tunisia.

When you read accounts of the operations during this period, weather plays a very minor role. There is the occasional localised attack that is disrupted by rain. The operations are shaped by logistics and terrain, not by weather. The weather in this part of the world is generally relatively mild during the winter. Hence the Allies launched their operation in November.

Yet here I am with a large German Army facing a large Allied force in Spring (when the weather should be basically always clear - as I say, Rome in August) and we've sat in our trenches for the entirety of March and April with water up to our knees.

The trouble is that this is kind of game breaking. If you assign a large force to this area under the assumption that the weather will reflect reality, only to find yourself in the meteorological equivalent of a wet Russian autumn rather than a warm, clear N African Spring, you can get half the Wehrmacht stuck doing nothing when it should be positioning for a Barbarossa which can now probably not happen.

I really think you should have a look at this - the weather model for French North Africa is completely off.

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Post #: 12

RE: Issues with weather - 1/6/2021 12:18:52 PM

squatter

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I should also add it has also been raining in Athens for two months March - April, which I'm sorry is also completely off.

Athens in April (according to Wikipedia) experiences a similar amount of rainfall as Marseille does in June or August, ie not very much.

This is the Mediterranean we are talking about, not the Baltic

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Post #: 13

RE: Issues with weather - 1/6/2021 1:10:23 PM

MorningDew

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They key is, in WWII, neither side campaigned significantly in Western Europe and Warplan needs to reflect it.

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RE: Issues with weather - 1/6/2021 1:43:09 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MorningDew

They key is, in WWII, neither side campaigned significantly in Western Europe and Warplan needs to reflect it.

Sorry I don't get what you mean?

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Post #: 15

RE: Issues with weather - 1/7/2021 10:57:45 AM

squatter

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Feels like I'm in an army of one here, but in my continuing quest to point out that the weather model for N Africa is out of tune, I'm keeping my eye on the weather in N Africa in my ongoing PBEMs.

June 7 turn sees rain in the 'semi arid' zone. So that's Cairo/Alexandria area shut down for military ops. Same in SW Morocco (Marrakesh etc).

In reality both Cairo and Marrakesh have an average total rainfall in June of 0.00 inches. Yet here they are reduced to the same conditions as February in Norway.

Same applies across Algeria, Tunisia and half of Libya.

There should in game terms surely be 0% chance of a rainy turn in this weather zone in June?

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RE: Issues with weather - 1/7/2021 12:37:48 PM

michaelCLARADY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

The manuals location is a standard Matrix format.

On the main WarPlan forum the 4th link down has the link you want. I changed the name to make it more obvious what it is to avoid this confusion with new players in the future. Thanks for bringing this subject to my attention.

The Manual says nothing about what weather might be in a region at a particular time of year.

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Post #: 17

RE: Issues with weather - 1/7/2021 1:47:22 PM

squatter

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To keep banging the drum:

Following turn, June 21

The 'semi arid' zone experiences rain once again. So that's a full month - all of June - where military operations are practically impossible in Cairo and Marrakesh, cities which record 0.00 inches of rain in June in reality (wikipedia).

This also includes all of Algeria and Tunisia and half of Libya turned into a quagmire for the entirety of June.

I'm sorry to say Alvaro, but the weather system for N Africa is not just out of kilter, it's broken.

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Post #: 18

RE: Issues with weather - 1/7/2021 2:34:43 PM

AlvaroSousa

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This link. The Matrix official link has the 1.00.09 manual. It is with the last patch. This is my 4th link down that has the added material.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4884245

There were a huge number of resources I checked for weather for the map. Things aren't 100% this or 100% that. They are a lot of variables involved. I included HOI3 weather maps, WIF weather maps, climate weather maps.
Rain can mean, too hot, too cool, too muddy, too rainy for a short period of time, a lot of small rains for a long period of time, not enough hours in the day to conduct offensives, too many cloudy days for air operations.

There is also some game play balanced involved in some of the adjustments and some strategies.

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
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Designer Strategic Command
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- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 19

RE: Issues with weather - 1/7/2021 2:51:09 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

This link. The Matrix official link has the 1.00.09 manual. It is with the last patch. This is my 4th link down that has the added material.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4884245

There were a huge number of resources I checked for weather for the map. Things aren't 100% this or 100% that. They are a lot of variables involved. I included HOI3 weather maps, WIF weather maps, climate weather maps.
Rain can mean, too hot, too cool, too muddy, too rainy for a short period of time, a lot of small rains for a long period of time, not enough hours in the day to conduct offensives, too many cloudy days for air operations.

There is also some game play balanced involved in some of the adjustments and some strategies.

I'm sorry Alvaro, I just don't buy it in the case of N Africa. Whatever you want to label the 'rain' in N Africa as, shutting down meaningful military operations in Egypt/Tunisia/Algeria/Morocco for the entire month of June bears no relation to reality, nor does it contribute to enjoyment or balance as far as I can see.

Nor does shutting down military operations in Morocco/Algeria/Tunisia for the entirety of March and April, when these were key campaigning months during Torch.

The main impact of the above is frankly to ruin the game vis-a-vis anyone wanting to pursue a N Africa strategy.

I would imagine most players would prefer that campaigning in N Africa in Spring/Summer be pretty much a given that weather is not going to be the key shaping factor of such operations. Doesn't suit historicity, nor does it suit enjoyment.

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Post #: 20

RE: Issues with weather - 1/7/2021 6:02:08 PM

squatter

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Update - July 19 turn and still 'raining' in Cairo/Marrakesh/Morocco/Tunis!!!

Six weeks of no campaigning during the early summer in N Africa.

Honestly, if you don't see this as an issue, I don't know what else to say

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Post #: 21

RE: Issues with weather - 1/7/2021 8:10:15 PM

AlvaroSousa

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You just got unlucky that's all. I'm looking at the weather charts for semi-arid.

April 80% clear weather
May 80% clear weather
June 91% clear weather
July 95% clear weather
All the other months 86%+ chance clear weather

That is not unreasonable.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 22

RE: Issues with weather - 1/7/2021 9:08:07 PM

squatter

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

You just got unlucky that's all. I'm looking at the weather charts for semi-arid.

April 80% clear weather
May 80% clear weather
June 91% clear weather
July 95% clear weather
All the other months 86%+ chance clear weather

That is not unreasonable.

Thanks for looking at it and publishing the odds Alvaro, I appreciate it.

But I have to disagree.

Firstly I must have been unlucky to in several games to get four turns in a row rain in one game, four turns in a row in another, and plenty in a third in which I wasn't recording the results.

Secondly, instead of 80-95% during these months, it should probably be something more like 90-100% clear weather.

And in Egypt I wouldn't expect any turn in this month range to be 'rain'.

Cairo averages less than one day of rain per month from April to October. From July-Sept it averages exactly 0 days rain.

And I have to respectfully challenge the logic that 'rain' can mean too hot/too cold/whatever in this region. What possible conditions could turn the Nile zone to the equivalent of rainy Russia in November for four weeks? Both armies manoeuvred more freely and covering more ground in N Africa at the height of summer than practically any other theatre, terrain permitting.

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Post #: 23

RE: Issues with weather - 8/22/2021 6:40:34 AM

MWalker321