Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

3.6 mil Soviets on the map is critically low for this time.....should be close to 5 mil.

1 mil in Reserves, not sure what they are doing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

3.6 mil Soviets on the map is critically low for this time.....should be close to 5 mil.

1 mil in Reserves, not sure what they are doing.

Still a 4.6 million man army and Roadwarrior even has 3,000,000 Russian Casualties. That is still a huge Red Army even if 1,000,000 is in reserve and it is going to do nothing but grow over the next few months. Remember 500,000 of those in Reserve came from the Nov 25th bonus they get on that turn. The Soviets will get another 200,000 men in May of 42. So by that time the Soviet Army should be BIG when the Germans TRY to go on the offensive in the spring. Add another Assault Hq for the Soviets and subtract one for the Germans in 42 and the Soviets are almost on par with the Germans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

3.6 mil Soviets on the map is critically low for this time.....should be close to 5 mil.

1 mil in Reserves, not sure what they are doing.

Still a 4.6 million man army and Roadwarrior even has 3,000,000 Russian Casualties. That is still a huge Red Army even if 1,000,000 is in reserve and it is going to do nothing but grow over the next few months. Remember 500,000 of those in Reserve came from the Nov 25th bonus they get on that turn. The Soviets will get another 200,000 men in May of 42. So by that time the Soviet Army should be BIG when the Germans TRY to go on the offensive in the spring. Add another Assault Hq for the Soviets and subtract one for the Germans in 42 and the Soviets are almost on par with the Germans.

I do think the Soviets are too strong into 1942 at the moment; a few more games need to get there to confirm, but no argument

The Manpower drops don't immediately count in reserves though; only if they get added to units in the Reserves. If they are in Manpower pool they won't show up in any OOB numbers.

In my game vs. RW, I've had fewer losses and keep the Reserves empty, but I'm already close to 5.5 mil in December

quote:

ORIGINAL: gundam1985

The Soviet army is huge and waiting for the 1942.

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ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior

quote:

ORIGINAL: gundam1985

The Soviet army is huge and waiting for the 1942.

I think you understand the logistics system far better then the others.

Your army is far more mobile than M60 and others. A fat bloated army is slow and can only grind.

Once the special rule set of 41 is over, papering over the short coming of the logistics system you dump the reserves back into your Army which will lead to a 42 SHC steam roller I am guessing.
Completely unhistorical, but we did not write the code we all just play with what we were given.

The game about logistics not the size of the ones army.

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior

quote:

ORIGINAL: gundam1985

The Soviet army is huge and waiting for the 1942.

I think you understand the logistics system far better then the others.

Your army is far more mobile than M60 and others. A fat bloated army is slow and can only grind.

Once the special rule set of 41 is over, papering over the short coming of the logistics system you dump the reserves back into your Army which will lead to a 42 SHC steam roller I am guessing.
Completely unhistorical, but we did not write the code we all just play with what we were given.

The game about logistics not the size of the ones army.

you keep on mentioning this 'special rule set', what do you mean? The modelling of the real problems the Germans had with using civilian trucks (of many makes) or integrating their train stock into the Soviet system?

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

My list of Balance issues go beyond the Logistic - that is not even at the top - but it is neither 'just Assault Soviet HQs' that oversimplifies it.

Here I feel RoadWarrior went where the logistics helped them - as per where ports assisted the insufficient railroads.
There is also the other component that to take Orel and then lose it during Winter nets to the Soviets a +6 too (That is why I am insisting VPs need rework, and certainly Bonus for premature conquest only for who has the initiative).

But mostly it's the Combat Capability of the Red Army that is exceedingly overwhelming. And I do not think it's just due to Assault HQ but also due to the sheer possibility of retreating and avoid engagements til they're ready for. (Which may be a consequence of the logistic Axis hamstring) paired up with the possibility of the Soviets to bomb railyards and the like with little to no opposition.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior

....
I fail to see how the devs can defend this?

IT IS VERY CLEAR 2.0 is a complete flop when compaired to 1.0

quote:

ORIGINAL: RoadWarrior
...

Loki don’t be so defensive and simply look at the results.

Gundam is basically mocking the whole system by having 1,000,000 men in reserve and still achieving an unhistorical great 41/42 winter. SHC does not need to defend Leningrad, black sea ports, planes or those 1,000,000 men. Just run at just the right speed, because of a poorly designed logistics system.

The current model is all about SHC running at the correct speed as Q-ball and I have talked about in PMs. It has zero to do with trucks and trains, player skills ect ect. If SHC runs at the correct speed you will get unhistorically low Russian loses and an unhistorical 41/42 winter SHC offensive which German army simply can’t recover from because it causes a feedback loop and than SHC is on a unhistorical offensive in 42. This running at just the right speed tactic is used because of special rules put on the Germans logistics system.

As AlbertN points out “ the issue is that hardly Germans can achieve historical results as of now - which should be the 'Average' of the game. How many Axis players get to Orel, Rostov, Kursk etcetera. And how many can also keep a good portion of these through the coming winter?”

This is all caused by special rules to the German logistics system. If the logistics system is so great why all the special rules that cause the game to be so unhistorical?

This will become more unhistorical and more boringly predictable as more and more AARs show players how to game the poor logistics model.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

My list of Balance issues go beyond the Logistic - that is not even at the top - but it is neither 'just Assault Soviet HQs' that oversimplifies it.

Here I feel RoadWarrior went where the logistics helped them - as per where ports assisted the insufficient railroads.
There is also the other component that to take Orel and then lose it during Winter nets to the Soviets a +6 too (That is why I am insisting VPs need rework, and certainly Bonus for premature conquest only for who has the initiative).

But mostly it's the Combat Capability of the Red Army that is exceedingly overwhelming. And I do not think it's just due to Assault HQ but also due to the sheer possibility of retreating and avoid engagements til they're ready for. (Which may be a consequence of the logistic Axis hamstring) paired up with the possibility of the Soviets to bomb railyards and the like with little to no opposition.

Edit: Adding up - there is no 'steep learning curve' or 'players must master the business' excuse. A single game takes hours of one's life. If the game feels wrong, players move on (At least I do at some point if I do not see proper changes) than to waste hours trying to master a system that is perceived as flawed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

Loki - forgive me if I misunderstood how it works please correct me.

A HQ increases the Storage Capacity of a Depot - that is the sum of Railyard Size, Port Size and HQ Type.

That is not relevant to bombing the Railyard itself - that where it is of size 2 or more, adds to the capacity of mobilizing Freight around. (As per a virtual rolling stock presence)

Thus if let's say Minsk Railyard is bombed - and that is a big railyard - and from 100% goes down to 50% functionality (An abstraction); the Storage Capability drops from 60k + HQ to 30k + HQ, fine and fair!
But the rolling stock contribution to what can arrive here is halved!

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

The issue lies in the Soviet use of assault fronts, that solves their command problems, gets most units under good commanders, avoids the problem of how to rest and refit when on a strategic retreat, plus the movement and combat capacity to inflict serious damage.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

That proves my point though.

Yes it is 30 hexes - so Berlin (like a heart) pumps to Poland (supposedly nicely enough) and then there is the reliance on other Railyards to keep shuffling Freight onward.

If Minsk is kept under bombing for a few turns (let's say T1 to T3 not accounting for losses) it will delay the repairs, and thus make it less efficient for the subsequent build up when the front will move onward.

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ORIGINAL: Beethoven1

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

The issue lies in the Soviet use of assault fronts, that solves their command problems, gets most units under good commanders, avoids the problem of how to rest and refit when on a strategic retreat, plus the movement and combat capacity to inflict serious damage.

Is it really the assault fronts? In my very first game (multiplayer game also), I played as Soviets and I didn't make a single assault front until winter (because I figured at that point having not played before that it was good to use AP to replace bad commanders first, and that would also let me build forts in the meantime).

AAR here: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5012736

And nevertheless I was doing a lot better than historical. Granted the Germany player definitely made mistakes and was new to the game (as I was), but nevertheless I feel like it is worth mentioning that there is at least this one example where Soviets did absolutely fine and had way lower than historical losses despite not having assault HQs. As a side note, this also is a game where Germany routed a lot of Soviet units. From the game design that is supposed to be pretty good to do and the only viable option for Germany is not supposed to be that everything has to always be isolated and eliminated. But that didn't work, there were simply too many Soviets to keep routing them all (especially in the good defensive terrain in the north, but also elsewhere). And also this was without fortress cities working. I sacrificed 7 divisions in Odessa that instantly died before it was even isolated, and after that didn't use any fortress cities. That is supposed to help Soviets, but didn't and Soviets still did fine.