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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1

 
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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/7/2021 8:32:36 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		End of Turn 3 Recap

T1 Pockets got liquidated proper and a few, scattered Soviet Infantry Divisions got trapped here and there.
My sentiment is that the Soviets will not try to rescue them - favoring to keep their units fat, building CCP. The booty in general is 1 division or so per trapped spot. They can just afford that type of loss I feel.

My 'gain' has been pratically uncontested advance (I am not rejoyicting) that can net plenty of admin movement for the Infantries. Partisans are not active yet so that will mean some distance covered decently. In the South especially Vinnitsa is usually a T4 or T5 business for me, not a T3 encircling it -and- Zhitomir too (another Railyard lvl 2).

Then again the Soviets have nothing to lose VP wise up to Kiev, they can just have maxed CCPs units waiting behind the Dnepr. Which is what I suspect and dread.

In the North Seminole has well delayed my usual advance toward Talinn, but he must have diverted resources there that are not elsewhere. (Have I empty land in the south?)

The Center is the lottery, with Fortress Smolensk waiting and looming ahead, impregnable bastion of Communist defence, cardinal point for the resistance of the Soviets.
Velike Luki seems out of reach, far too many infantries dug in right now in the forests. - I suspect HYLA vs JJ AAR affected this decision somehow!
But the present position East of the BEresina allows the Germans to 'punch' (Assuming they can punch!) north-east, east, or south and south-east.
With a broad chunk of Axis land (if Seminole does not counterattack) the 3 Panzer Korps there can be quite flexible.

BUT, and that is the biggest BUT, I do not think anything I can do right now will give a headache or even an itch to the Soviets.

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 31
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/8/2021 12:28:00 PM   
Seminole


Posts: 2105
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Status: offline 		Big differences between the two attacks you showed.

A hasty attack is not going to hit full strength, better to stack as you did in the second attack and ensure it if using a hasty attack in any kind of terrain. Also a big difference between hitting an entrenched enemy in light woods to hitting an enemy on the steppes with no fortifications values (natural or otherwise) to shield it.

In view of the terrain and fortifications, you went light in the first attack and heavy in the second.


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Post #: 32
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/11/2021 1:12:53 PM   
Seminole


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Status: offline 		This is only my second (and concurrent) campaign, and I hadn’t yet set any HQ to assault status.

Would you like to have any house rules for this part of the game in our campaign?

I’m thinking maybe rolling limit for Soviets:

1 - Nov ‘41
2 - Oct ‘42
3 - Jun ‘43
4 - Jun ‘44

Thoughts for Axis?

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Post #: 33
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/11/2021 3:42:20 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		I am not sure if they start with 1 already in Assault Mode - but you can easily check on that. (I believe they do but not 100% sure. I'll discover once I get my first turn as Soviet in a 3rd game).

If you want to House Rule that as your own limit I am fine with. As Axis atm I just self impose the limit of not overloading the Assault HQ beyond 1 point or so in case of regimentation of troops in contingency situations.
But I've already all 6 Assault HQs and I feel them pretty badly needed - given I am far from being a master of the game. But the CCP buildup when having to move in enemy hexes and all can help.

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Post #: 34
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/11/2021 4:01:59 PM   
carlkay58

 

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Status: offline 		The Soviets do not start with any Assault HQs assigned in the 41 Campaign. The Axis start with the four Panzer Groups as Assault HQs with two more possible.

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Post #: 35
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 1:37:12 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		Opening the T4 - Cold Showers

Soviets sweep through and pockets armoured spearheads up in the North.

The Soviets clearly have lots of mobility if they can accomplish these things.

Some ought to say 'You must regiment your divisions, and spread them so you have good coverage'.
Alas, not really that possible in the current state of the game. Why? Check next.




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Post #: 36
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 1:40:25 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		T4 - Cold Shower, Soviet Hammer

The Soviets can just mass their forces through their cheap admin movement, and hammer a spearhead of the Germans.

In this way.
50% Panzer losses in -1- single combat. Of a Division. In Light Woods. With a skilled commander vs a skilled commander of the Soviets.

Without Assault Fronts, as Seminole said above.

Which underlines to me further how the game is bogus beyond the Assault fronts. - To put it simple, the Soviet coordination and operational levels are well excessive. Now in 41, figure out once their leadership penalty fades away.

Now you can imagine how harder gets a regiment hammered.






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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 1:47:36 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		T4 Openings: Soviets Masters of Tactics

Your friendly never heard of Soviet commander (Maybe it's a skilled one!) manages to foil commissars and halt an attack at scouting range.

Now - if these were 2 (this and previous post one) of many Soviet attacks, that bled them, battered them as they tried to eat Movement Points and CCP to German forces - it could be somehow acceptable. (Well the Division pounding to me it's not. I feel that it is endemyc of the game though, and will prolly cause me to move on to more realistic pastures where realism is not 'math of millimeters of armour multiplied by slope factor and vaunted gun accuracy' but by the grand scheme of things and the game flow).

But alas, this and the previous attack are the whole of the Soviets attack for the turn.
So a 100% success of extreme cooperation, and a 100% ... disaster avoided? (But probably, even without 'scouting' result, the attack was to be stalled at grand distance after some artillery fire).




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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 1:50:07 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		T4 - Cold Showers

The bucket of Fortified Zones here disappeared.
I believe they've been disbanded. I've not attacked them earlier - they're in the screenshot in fact with Axis forces adjacent to them at the other side of the river.

Since a while I am advocating for a change in Disbanding Mechanism, putting a limit due to proximity and an AP cost.

That's a lot of troopers and artilleries that just got saved there from certain doom.




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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 1:55:44 PM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

T4 - Cold Showers

The bucket of Fortified Zones here disappeared.
I believe they've been disbanded. I've not attacked them earlier - they're in the screenshot in fact with Axis forces adjacent to them at the other side of the river.

Since a while I am advocating for a change in Disbanding Mechanism, putting a limit due to proximity and an AP cost.

...


maybe not, if they are low TOE/exp/morale (& they are) they often just collapse when adjacent. In particular aim to cut them off as isolated they will collapse - saves you CPP.

wider pt, there is a lot about game balance being thrown around, much more use when it is said with an understanding of game mechanics


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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 2:01:45 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		Never seen them collapse just because 'adjacent' Loki.
Nor vs the AI nor other Players. But I assume Seminole can ask.

I do not care much of 'saving CCP' when some Romanians fought already and have 0ish CCP or low CCP. I'd rather pomp a tiny wee bit experience and morale of some Romanian formation, and destroy the Soviets.
50% of 0 is still 0, and 50% of 10 is 5. For what concerns CCP.


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Post #: 41
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 2:02:43 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		T4 Cold Showers - Post Recon

Soviet Massed forces here manifest a grand will of resist through the heavy terrain.




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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 2:06:05 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		T4 - Cold Showers: Recon South

On the other hand, in absence of Victory Points, Factories to defend or anything ...

Air Recon here signals a totally empty and vacant land of enemy forces.

My Germans here (seemingly) can advance by walking, as the Soviets rely on the Logistic Limits I feel.

Even this bit to me feel completely wrong - to be able to surrender ground entirely scott free.






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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 2:12:29 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		Recon Losses - OPS!

Non intercepted business - and each Recon was conducted by 1 specific air group assigned to it.

Considering Recon Air Groups vary from 6 to 10 planes pretty much, the ones that had 4 shot down planes (assuming they had 10) suffered a 40% losses out of ... pretty much malfunctions, maybe some flak fire, and general being flow ... (If that Air Squadron was of 6, 4 is 66% loss ratio).

Ground crew must be pretty sucky at doing their maintenance on planes.










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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 2:22:54 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		It seems also that as a HQ was relocated, not being isolated at the start of the turn, all of its SUs were destroyed.

That is quite a pressing bug from my end at least, which suggests me to just screw the game til it is not actually in a better shape - in terms of balance at least (barring the bugs).

Edit: Yes all Battallions are back to reserve, Refitting, with 44 Experience and 55 Morale.





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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 9/12/2021 2:28:18 PM >

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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 3:32:02 PM   
Seminole


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

It seems also that as a HQ was relocated, not being isolated at the start of the turn, all of its SUs were destroyed.
That is quite a pressing bug from my end at least, which suggests me to just screw the game til it is not actually in a better shape - in terms of balance at least (barring the bugs).
Edit: Yes all Battallions are back to reserve, Refitting, with 44 Experience and 55 Morale.





If this was the HQ that was co-located with 12th Pzr Div it relocated to a position on the front line (SE of original hex) when the 12th Pzr Div retreated, and then was punted at least once more as I retook converted hexes on the edge of the front line. So it the HQ didn't lose all of its units it may have been that they shattered from heavy losses? Just throw it out there as a possibility. Didn't understand the retreat direction.

I've found relocate brutal as the Soviets, and it leaves you unable to run the next turn so at the outset it seems pointless unless you wanted to a coinflip to kill bad commanders.

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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 4:07:28 PM   
Joel Billings


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Status: offline 		There is a known bug still remaining in 1.01.09 that HQs that are in a hex in combat that are forced to retreat will have all their attached support units destroyed. That bug has been fixed, along with the Assault HQ bugs (overloaded and out of range units still go AHQ bonuses), in the 1.01.10 version we just released to testers. Not sure how soon 1.01.10 will go out to the public, but I would guess 1-2 weeks.

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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 7:03:45 PM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN





Those Tank loss ratios are pure fantasy. No chance in hell that is happening in July 1941.

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Post #: 48
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/12/2021 9:44:35 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		AAR Closed.

I decided to not play Axis anymore til moves are made in terms of balance.

As explained to my opponents both my AAR posting turned into almost an incessant streak of complaints on the game, and a general vibe of frustration and lack of enjoyment through doing the turns. Due to perception of a wrong 'narrative' of the Barbarossa.

Graciously - both opponents understood the sentiment.
Looking forward to see positive changes and to be able to play - enjoying the game.

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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/13/2021 7:25:56 PM   
vvs007

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
Those Tank loss ratios are pure fantasy


:)... pure fantasy - its books nazi generals "how we killed 100500 t34s with pistols..."

1445 art systems (near 200 big guns) + 900 tanks guns - destroyed and disorganized the tank division's defense system (see detailed report). This is exactly what looks really historical, unlike the WITE 1-math.

Many Thanks to the DEV!!!

what is really, not historically, is the immortal 109s, which shoot down 3-5 bombers per flight without loss (totally blind rus gunners? LOL). Where did the Lufftwaffe go with the history production of 90,000 aircrafts during the war, with that WITE math? nonsense :)

In none of our AARs there are more or less historical air losses of the Germans (loki100 full game = 18k losses (1/4 from real history ?!!) , it is time to seriously think about the model of air battles.


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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/14/2021 9:58:13 AM   
xhoel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vvs007



:)... pure fantasy - its books nazi generals "how we killed 100500 t34s with pistols..."




You sound very salty. The Soviets lost 83.5k Tanks and 13k SPGs during the war, more than all the other combatants combined. This is a fact, backed up by Soviet figures and not German general memoirs, which are not treated as fact by any historian worth their salt.

In case of the battle that was shown: Please show me a case of combat in July 1942 where a Panzer division lost half (89) of its tanks to a direct assault.

We already have historical precedent of such an event happening in the Battle of Brody (23-30 June 1941) but the result contradicts your claim. 3.5k Soviet tanks going agains a much smaller German force of 750 tanks. The result: 200 German tanks lost vs 800 Soviet tanks lost (4:1 ratios). The Soviet mechanized forces stopped being operational after the battle.

So yes, the battle shown above is pure fantasy as the Soviets lacked the capabilities to coordinate such grand scale (armored attacks) this early in the war.

_____________________________

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(in reply to vvs007)
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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/14/2021 3:33:01 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel



So yes, the battle shown above is pure fantasy as the Soviets lacked the capabilities to coordinate such grand scale (armored attacks) this early in the war.



You mean the Soviets could not do this type of coordination so well in 41 but we have that coordination in the Game? ;-P Must be nice to be a Soviet!

Ya, I see it in my game too. At this point in my games I just try and make the Soviets pay for their attacks until the "Powers in Charges (Devs)" change the world I play in.

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 9/14/2021 3:34:14 PM >

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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/15/2021 3:58:13 AM   
DesertedFox


Posts: 314
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Status: offline 		Before we all get too excited and throw the baby out with the bath water, let’s put some things into perspective.

To base an entire book on a single paragraph would be a mistake. Yes, the Russians didn’t perform all that well at Brody (nice video of the battle below) which doesn’t mean they couldn’t do it EVER. Brody was a much larger affair than the example in this game above. At Brody it was 4 and later 5 German divisions and in this example, it was only one. Russian forces were similarly much bigger at Brody. Big difference just there. We must compare apples with apples and not with oranges. I am not saying there are no parrels between Brody and this combat, of course there are, but its not exactly a 100% parrel, in fact far from it.

At Brody the Russians were constantly harassed from the air on the way and during the battle as they had complete air supremacy. One Russian commander was either killed or at least incapacitated due to this. German air was responsible for the destruction of 200 tanks in the course of the battle. In this games example, there are no air forces present, so that apple is starting to look more like an orange.

Brody was fought just one day after Barbarossa started. It would be fair to say that the Germans were very fresh and no fatigue with plentiful ammo and fuel. How fresh were the Russian, had to say but some units had to march a long way to get to the battle. Their ammo and fuel situation as most likely, not good as from my readings and my poor memory, many frontier units were low in both ammo and fuel from the get go of the invasion.
So, in the example battle of this game what was the fatigue, ammo and fuel levels of the German division? I don’t know.
What about the fatigue. Ammo and fuel status of the Russian units? I don’t know.
These would certainly have a major effect of the outcome especially if the German division was heavily fatigued.
Finally, there comes the die rolls for the commander’s ratings to affect the final combat value. What were these respective die rolls? I don’t know. Random die rolls are a part of the game, and that isn’t going to change.
Looking at Tyrone (Axis) vs Gundam (Sov) AAR I wouldn’t be too quick to say with 100% certainty that the German’s cause is hopeless under the current game system.
I do think there are some things that need tweaking like assault HQ’s, but let’s not be too hasty resulting in a continual pendulum swing like it was in WITE#1 which resulted in me to stop playing it many years ago. My last game back then was against Hardluck.

https://militaryanalysis.blogspot.com/2020/04/brody-1941.html

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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/15/2021 6:09:15 AM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		Present game between Tyrone and Gundam cannot really be put in parallel because for all I see right now the Soviets retreated and the Germans advanced without really getting down to pitched and fierce combats.

And frankly here it is pretty much the same - til the Soviets decide to turn around and hammer the Germans. No Soviet player will replicate 'Dubno / Brody' because in T1 they're not ready for.
The Luftwaffe as shown abundantly is useless in ground support in terms of damage; and if the Bf109 somehow are not there - bombers get minced.

The issue is that the IGO-UGO system here allows a massing of forces via admin movement that all get to fight together - smoothly and precisely - with maybe a penalty if they're part of different HQs / Organizations.
This way the Soviets can amass the type of attacks they had not in '42 but like '44, with so many guns that their artillery pieces are 'wheel against wheel' for their attack front or almost!

Edit: Territorial gain is meaningless unless there is also the mauling of the Soviet Army. In one game I took Leningrad, and reached Tambov. Not out of my merits but out of Soviets retreating persistently til the extremes of logistic reaches or so, and doing some muck ups here and there.

< Message edited by AlbertN -- 9/15/2021 6:10:59 AM >

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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/15/2021 6:22:06 AM   
DesertedFox


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Status: offline 		My main point is, there are many variables that affect the combat value for both sides, which ultimately will decide who won and who lost.

Until all of those variables are know it is impossible to make a concrete statement about the game engine working fine or it's broken.

You cannot just "cherry-pick" the variables you want to justify a statement or use a historical battle that has some relevance but not total relevance to justify one's argument.

I don't want to be driven away from this game like I was with the original.

Yes, I am a Soviet fanboy, but I have on this forum already gone to bat over the extremely bad weather on turns 4 and 5 which I believe would be a serious detriment to the Germans.

I am trying to remain objective for both sides.

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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/15/2021 6:41:28 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

...

The Luftwaffe as shown abundantly is useless in ground support in terms of damage; and if the Bf109 somehow are not there - bombers get minced.

....


if this is really what happens in your game then I'd suggest you really need to rework your approach to the airwar

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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/15/2021 8:37:59 AM   
DesertedFox


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Status: offline 		So let me if I understand what you and xhoel would like.

quote:

My Germans here (seemingly) can advance by walking, as the Soviets rely on the Logistic Limits I feel.

Even this bit to me feel completely wrong - to be able to surrender ground entirely scott free.


So in this instance, you don't want the Russians to retreat.

Then xhoel says

quote:

So yes, the battle shown above is pure fantasy as the Soviets lacked the capabilities to coordinate such grand scale (armored attacks) this early in the war.


So you two would like to see the Russians shackled by forcing them to stand fast and also have no ability to co-ordinate any attacks whatsoever until a certain time frame, say, November 1942.









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RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/15/2021 9:29:51 AM   
cameron88

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

...

The Luftwaffe as shown abundantly is useless in ground support in terms of damage; and if the Bf109 somehow are not there - bombers get minced.

....


if this is really what happens in your game then I'd suggest you really need to rework your approach to the airwar





There is nothing he can do, ground attack and ground support in WITE2 is beyond weak and feels practically worthless as it gets shredded by ground anti-air and does virtually no damage. WITE1 Had a far better ground and air combat system, where moving your Stukas somewhere actually meant something.

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Post #: 58
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/15/2021 6:08:44 PM   
vvs007

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel
...tanks lost (4:1 ratios)...

...So yes, the battle shown above is pure fantasy as the Soviets lacked the capabilities to coordinate such grand scale (armored attacks) this early in the war.


The ratio of tank losses is absolutely meaningless from the point of view of the historicity of the battle ... it is obvious that the losses in that long battle (near Dubno-Brody) are many factors, from OP losses on the march, to the impact of German aviation and AT/AA guns fire. German tanks inflicted no more than 10% of losses with direct fire. So in the 12th tank division of the 8th mechcorp, only 75 tanks out of 300 on paper took part in the battles (75% losses before start attacks).

Throughout the battle, the total number of Germans and Russians was approximately 1:1 equal to 150.000 (with complete superiority of the Germans in the air).

And now back to our virtual battle, the Russians put together a fist (7-10:1) and hit the lone division that had rushed forward, the player's Luftwaffe slept through the attack. So what will be the "historical" result? exactly what we see on the screen. In this regard the math Wite2 is much better than Wite1 ... I remember how similar Russian forces (100k+2k guns) hit the mech Brigade (5k), and german retreated with the loss of 70 soldiers and 5 guns LOL (wite1 aar), is this historical in your opinion? :)

On the other hand, the mechanics of air war WITE do not reflect the historical realities well (it got to the point that players don't even need to bomb Russian airfields (which historically determined the success of the blitzkrieg)). I like even more how this is implemented in Paradoxes in hoi4, where the advantage in the air directly affects the efficiency in this area. A similar system in The Operational Art of War IV. Direct bombing of empty hexs to delay the enemy a little? - clearly not the best solution to simulate what actually happened in the AirWar 1941-45.

P.s. recommend a book about the battle of Dubno, maybe it will become a little clearer what actually happened there

Dubno book

P.p.s. unfortunately, the infantile decision to quit playing on an invented pretext once again did not give me the opportunity to enjoy the defeat of the Germans in our AARs :)... Please play until you win / lose, when the in-game conditions come, or do not start! 99% of German players quit the first time they some fail , what kind of unsportsmanlike behavior? :(



< Message edited by vvs007 -- 9/15/2021 6:22:42 PM >

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Post #: 59
RE: AAR vs Opponent Nr.1 - 9/15/2021 6:33:52 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		Mister VVS007 I'd gladly play as Soviets vs you.

It will be the first game as Soviet on my end - I am quite up to see if my lack of skill and whatnot here makes up for the gap of what I feel the easy life of the Soviets.
I've challenged already another Pro-Soviet player and he has kindly declined, not answered at all.

I still rest in my case that the Soviet Coordination of Attacks is way beyond what they should have.
For you it is normal but the main difference is that in Dubno the Soviets -tried- to emulate that type of attack, and they failed brutally due to a series of factors whereas in WITE2 the Soviets do some smooth admin movement, pack their troops together crammed adjacent to the designated victim German formation, smash it, and then the Soviets scatter in good order with their remaining MP.


(in reply to vvs007)
Post #: 60
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