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Exceeding command limit - 9/20/2021 5:42:01 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		It kind of seems too easy to do.

You stack your HQ, but you split a division into regiments in order to encircle, and boom, you are over your command limit.

Thoughts?

Thanks.

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Post #: 1
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/20/2021 6:00:08 PM   
Yogol

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: offline 		I agree. If you have a non-assault army to hold a front-line, you can only put in 3 divisions. That seems much, much lower than in reality.

(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 2
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/20/2021 8:05:11 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		3 divisions is normal for a AK in general.

I do agree for gameplay mechanics I'd just always have a division (integer or split) always count 2 but I understand it's a problem to code and not something wanted anyhow.

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Post #: 3
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/21/2021 1:58:44 AM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		In fact, it is 3 Divisions and 3 regiments to reach the nine command points at Corps level.

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 4
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/21/2021 3:25:34 PM   
panzer51

 

Posts: 215
Joined: 9/16/2021
Status: offline 		Do support units count towards the command limit?

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Post #: 5
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/21/2021 4:30:13 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Do support units count towards the command limit?


no

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RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/22/2021 7:12:36 PM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/7/2010
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

3 divisions is normal for a AK in general.



3 divisions is normal for who?

If you look closely at the Germans throughout the war a Korps could consist of anything from a single division to as many as 6, I've even seen examples where a Korps controlled 7 divisions. There is no such thing as normal.

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Post #: 7
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/22/2021 7:22:46 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 642
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		There is a huge difference between a Corps commanding 7 divisions on a quite front and one with 7 divisions conducting active combat operations. The designers would have to program some kind of "activity" modifier that would penalize a Corps that was "fighting" overloaded and one that was just sitting, my point being that is complicated stuff, easier to just set a limit and if you go over there is a penalty.

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RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/22/2021 7:28:56 PM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/7/2010
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke

There is a huge difference between a Corps commanding 7 divisions on a quite front and one with 7 divisions conducting active combat operations.


What makes you think that the Korps commanding a large number of divisions e.g. 5,6, or 7 are all on quite fronts?

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Post #: 9
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/22/2021 7:42:53 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
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Status: offline 		https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Heer-Unit-Formations-And-Organization/

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Post #: 10
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/22/2021 8:21:22 PM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/7/2010
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Heer-Unit-Formations-And-Organization/


Websites are great for the general theory, but that general theory falls out the window when you study the actual primary documents, e.g the German 5-10 day Schematische Kriegsgliederung for the war.

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Post #: 11
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/22/2021 8:42:31 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 642
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708


quote:

ORIGINAL: Zemke

There is a huge difference between a Corps commanding 7 divisions on a quite front and one with 7 divisions conducting active combat operations.


What makes you think that the Korps commanding a large number of divisions e.g. 5,6, or 7 are all on quite fronts?



I am saying that seven divisions is beyond the IDEAL Command and Control of a Corps. Possible, but not best practice. It is hard enough to do the Staff and Command work for 3 subordinate units, much less more than double that number.

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Post #: 12
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/22/2021 8:49:18 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Heer-Unit-Formations-And-Organization/


Websites are great for the general theory, but that general theory falls out the window when you study the actual primary documents, e.g the German 5-10 day Schematische Kriegsgliederung for the war.


This isn't a "general theory". It backs what you say about 3 divisions being normal for the Germans.

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Post #: 13
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/22/2021 9:31:31 PM   
Zemke


Posts: 642
Joined: 1/14/2003
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline 		This post is NOT directed towards anyone or any specific post, more educational.

My point is there are limits to effective Command and Control (C2), and those limits apply across all military organizations. The key word is effective C2. There is a reason why in most nations armies there is a pattern, usually of sets of three, sometimes four. But the more subordinate elements, the less effective the Command and Control (C2) of those subordinates will be. Does not mean there cannot be more than the ideal, but by adding more there are diminishing returns as it relates to effective military C2.

I think that military Command and Control is one of the areas little understood by non-military people. Military C2 is nothing like civilian management of some retail store chain, where a district manager could be managing ten different stores. A Corps Command or any level command for that matter is coordinating across each subordinate commands, and adjacent Commands, reporting to Higher HQ on everything, tracking fuel, ammo, primary weapon systems, manpower, food, spare parts (all called classes of supply if you really want to get in the weeds), making adjustments to task organizations, fire support, writing Operations Orders and so on...doing all this with the added stress and urgency of combat AND across different terrain and a thinking enemy who is trying their best to thwart you. Make no mistake, this is very hard stuff. The less "moving parts" the easier. Every additional subordinate organization is another "moving part" to worry about.


< Message edited by Zemke -- 9/22/2021 9:33:05 PM >

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Post #: 14
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/22/2021 10:52:05 PM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/7/2010
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Heer-Unit-Formations-And-Organization/


Websites are great for the general theory, but that general theory falls out the window when you study the actual primary documents, e.g the German 5-10 day Schematische Kriegsgliederung for the war.


This isn't a "general theory". It backs what you say about 3 divisions being normal for the Germans.



I never said that 3 divisions is normal for the Germans, if you look at the 5-10 day Schematische Kriegsgliederung for the period 1941 -1945 the 'normal' is more likely to be either 2 or 4 divisions per Korps.

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 15
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/23/2021 12:48:26 AM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Command, communication and control of units involve the management of many factors; space, time, information and personalities. Steelers708 and Zemke are on the wrong frequencies when trying to get their message across to the other. You are both right BTW. Perhaps the word 'normal' could be replaced with best practice or average. A Corps HQ controlling an extended front with poor or disrupted radio/wire communications may be successful but I doubt it will be effective. Situational awareness is another factor. Another is orders not passed or misunderstood or ignored. It is the difference between an the destruction of an army and its escape. Desert Storm comes to mind when a certain American Corps commander closed a gap with helicopters instead of ground troops. Good discussion, Kudos to both of you.

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Post #: 16
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/23/2021 9:48:31 AM   
Steelers708

 

Posts: 138
Joined: 12/7/2010
From: England
Status: offline 		[/quote]
I am saying that seven divisions is beyond the IDEAL Command and Control of a Corps. Possible, but not best practice. It is hard enough to do the Staff and Command work for 3 subordinate units, much less more than double that number.
[/quote]

Sorry if I misunderstood you before, I would agree with you that 7, or even 5 or 6, is beyond the ideal for a Korps. My point was that having an artificial in game limit of 3 is not only unrealistic but also unhistorical.

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Post #: 17
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/23/2021 9:55:33 AM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Is it really a hard limit or just the point at which things degrade?

What I don't like is the "all or nothing" on ASHQs. Sometimes, you can reinforcement from the TBs, and in the heat of battle not even realize it. It think "all or nothing" is harsh. In such cases, then there should be a graphic highlight.

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Post #: 18
RE: Exceeding command limit - 9/23/2021 11:32:18 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		its not a hard limit. You can have the entire axis army reporting to a single corps if that is your chosen OOB.

Too many units become a geographical challenge - remember you shed all leadership and support unit relationships if over 5 hexes from your immediate command.

Beyond that, you add 1 to the divisor to the leadership test for ever 1 CP a HQ is overloaded. See the tables in 15.5.3 for some idea where this takes you.

A simple eg, an axis corps has a CP of 10 (post 43), so if it has 11 CP reporting as opposed to dividing leader value /10 it divides by /11 and so on.

Now if an axis army is 1 over, and is second in the chain, it now divides its leader score by 21 not the base 20. But at this stage its not linear - hence the worked examples in the manual (that took an age to get right ). How important shedding a marginal loss on the army leader really depends on how readily they are called on.

In general a Soviet front commander will work harder than a German army commander, so that has to go into your mental calculations.

This is why questions like:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kamiman

Curious about best method on attaching units to HQ - should a player have most HQ at optimal and overload some, or have all HQ at optimal and leave some units in reserve at the army groups or OKH level?



cannot be given a simple yes/no answer.



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Post #: 19
RE: Exceeding command limit - 10/2/2021 9:11:29 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: Steelers708


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

https://www.feldgrau.com/WW2-German-Heer-Unit-Formations-And-Organization/


Websites are great for the general theory, but that general theory falls out the window when you study the actual primary documents, e.g the German 5-10 day Schematische Kriegsgliederung for the war.


This isn't a "general theory". It backs what you say about 3 divisions being normal for the Germans.



I never said that 3 divisions is normal for the Germans, if you look at the 5-10 day Schematische Kriegsgliederung for the period 1941 -1945 the 'normal' is more likely to be either 2 or 4 divisions per Korps.


My mistake there. But it still backs what you said.

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If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

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Post #: 20
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