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German Airframe Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/27/2021 1:08:26 AM

MechFO

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/27/2021 6:31:51 AM

Dreamslayer

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Some Russian articles about LW losses on the East (based on German archives data).
LW losses on the East. Some ten-days (decades?) reports for 1941-43.
Bf-110 losses on the East in 1941
JG 52 losses on the East in July-Aug 1943

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/27/2021 2:44:01 PM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Some Russian articles about LW losses on the East (based on German archives data).
LW losses on the East. Some ten-days (decades?) reports for 1941-43.
Bf-110 losses on the East in 1941
JG 52 losses on the East in July-Aug 1943

All are 404.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)

Post #: 3

RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/27/2021 2:54:55 PM

MechFO

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Breaking down some numbers from the first post.

F.e. June 42 saw 33 non combat losses and 22 combat losses across the whole of JG51.

Comparing that to pilot losses for June:

maybe 2 combat losses from late May
3 missing

BTW I don't know how they applied unknown causes in the air frame loss reports.

The lions share of non combat losses during June came from II./JG51, but they did not move from January to July 42, staying near Bryansk throughout. No idea what might account for that.

August 42 is another busy month with 31 non combat losses and 57 combat losses (even more so since I./51 was not active).

Pilot losses
4 from combat (5 counting 1 from 31st July, but rest of July can be excluded)
1 from wounds, not specified
1 from emergency landing, not specified
2 missing (1 near Rzehv, so probably on combat mission)

Notable here is that II./JG51 was flying fairly intense long range missions, with them being based in Orel North, but staging daily through Dugino to fight in Rzhev before returning to Orel in the evening. This lasted 2-12 August.
Also interesting is that II./JG51 returned to Germany in early Oktober, and for 1942 it's Pilot losses are noted as 5 dead, 1 captured and 10 wounded with 23 planes lost. Going by the loss reports they registered 42 combat write offs. Where does the difference come from? Planes destroyed by air attack on their air fields or planes making it back but later written off? There are ground crew losses due to air attack on II air bases in September so that probably accounts for at least a few.

March 43 another busy month, albeit we are now mostly dealing with early Fw190's which are known to have reliability issues.

59 non combat write offs and 40 combat write offs

5 combat losses (7 if we include late February)
2 Ops losses
2 missing
(I'm exluding 1 walking into a propellor and 1 from strafing)

< Message edited by MechFO -- 9/27/2021 4:22:44 PM >

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/27/2021 3:51:46 PM

Great_Ajax

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I imagine "unknown" losses as an aircraft that just disappears without a visual confirmation of a wingman. Something like flying into an unexpected bad storm with no visibility. When you emerge from the storm, your wingman is nowhere to be found.

On airframe losses, the 8th Air Force had a term called 'retirements.' I assume that once an airframe had been banged up and repaired so many times that they just scrapped the plane. The numbers were staggering for a single year with thousands of aircraft written off as retired.

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/27/2021 4:26:46 PM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Great_Ajax

I imagine "unknown" losses as an aircraft that just disappears without a visual confirmation of a wingman. Something like flying into an unexpected bad storm with no visibility. When you emerge from the storm, your wingman is nowhere to be found.

On airframe losses, the 8th Air Force had a term called 'retirements.' I assume that once an airframe had been banged up and repaired so many times that they just scrapped the plane. The numbers were staggering for a single year with thousands of aircraft written off as retired.

The Luftwaffe didn't have an unknown category for plane losses, only pilot losses in the form of missing. But where there is a missing pilot there's a missing plane, and it's not clear to me in what category of plane loss that was placed.

Yes, that is surely also a factor here, it's just the Luftwaffe record keeping is so coarse it's very hard to say what's what. Consider how much of a bother it is to get non flyable airplanes from the middle of nowhere to a suitable repairshop and what level of work could be carried out in forward airstrips a lot of planes that probably could have been saved with better facilities would get written off even later in the war.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 9/27/2021 4:35:22 PM >

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/27/2021 5:01:44 PM

MechFO

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empty

< Message edited by MechFO -- 9/27/2021 9:20:08 PM >

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/27/2021 10:21:29 PM

Dreamslayer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Some Russian articles about LW losses on the East (based on German archives data).
LW losses on the East. Some ten-days (decades?) reports for 1941-43.
Bf-110 losses on the East in 1941
JG 52 losses on the East in July-Aug 1943

All are 404.

Try other browser. Its works fine for me.

quote:

The Luftwaffe didn't have an unknown category for plane losses

I don't think so. If a/c was missed cause of unknown reasons it should be noted somehow in documents. At least like "?".

Others Russian articles about LW losses on the East:
Fw-189 losses on the East in 1941
Ju-87 losses on the East in 1941
Ju-86 losses on the East in 1941-43
Long-range recon losses on the East in 1941-43
Hs-126 losses on the East in 1941
KG1 losses on the East in 1941
KG1 losses on the East in 1942
For these spreadsheets about % column. LW used a gradation for a/c losses in %. 100% - irrecoverable loss, 60-99% - damage that leaded to write-off, less 60% - repairable damage.

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/27/2021 11:40:40 PM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Some Russian articles about LW losses on the East (based on German archives data).
LW losses on the East. Some ten-days (decades?) reports for 1941-43.
Bf-110 losses on the East in 1941
JG 52 losses on the East in July-Aug 1943

All are 404.

Try other browser. Its works fine for me.

quote:

The Luftwaffe didn't have an unknown category for plane losses

I don't think so. If a/c was missed cause of unknown reasons it should be noted somehow in documents. At least like "?".

Others Russian articles about LW losses on the East:
Fw-189 losses on the East in 1941
Ju-87 losses on the East in 1941
Ju-86 losses on the East in 1941-43
Long-range recon losses on the East in 1941-43
Hs-126 losses on the East in 1941
KG1 losses on the East in 1941
KG1 losses on the East in 1942
For these spreadsheets about % column. LW used a gradation for a/c losses in %. 100% - irrecoverable loss, 60-99% - damage that leaded to write-off, less 60% - repairable damage.

Thanks, I got them to work with chrome.

When I open up a list from http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luftloss/luftloss.html, what are the 2 categories on the right? cant figure them out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer
For these spreadsheets about % column. LW used a gradation for a/c losses in %. 100% - irrecoverable loss, 60-99% - damage that leaded to write-off, less 60% - repairable damage.

The graduation was

91 - 100 % = Totalverlust.
->Total loss
60 - 90 % = Flugzeug unbrauchbar, Ausbau noch verwertbarer Teile zur weiteren Verwendung.
->airframe is a loss but parts can be salvaged for further use
45 - 59 % = Schwerbesch�digtes Flugzeug, Ersatz von Grossbauteilen erforderlich, Werftaufenthalt.
->heavily damaged, needs replacement of a major airframe component, needs highest level repairshop
40 - 44 % = Besch�digtes Flugzeug, Ersatz von Triebwerken oder Systemen ( z.b. Fahrwerk, Hydraulik etc.) erforderlich.
-> damaged, needs replacement of engine or system (f.e. Hydraulics or undercarriage)
25 - 39 % = Sch�den bei denen eine Flugzeugdurchsicht beim Verband durchgef�hrt werden muss.
->damage that needs to be checked by higher level, Geschwader level?
10 - 24 % = Mittlere Beschu�sch�den, die durch kleinere Reparaturen behoben werden k�nnen.
-> middling bullet damage that be fixed with small repairs
Unter 10 % = Geringe Beschu�sch�den, die die 1. Warte beheben k�nnen.
->small bullet damage that can be repaired by ?Squadron?

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/28/2021 3:12:46 AM

Dreamslayer

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quote:

When I open up a list from http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luftloss/luftloss.html, what are the 2 categories on the right? cant figure them out.

Probably it was problem because of extra symbol in your link - ",".
Anyway, http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luftloss/luftloss.html. What 2 categories are you talking about? Or you about column names from spreadsheets? Like this http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luftloss/luftloss01-10-08-41.html
Could you post a screenshot?

quote:

The graduation was

91 - 100 % = Totalverlust.
->Total loss
60 - 90 % = Flugzeug unbrauchbar, Ausbau noch verwertbarer Teile zur weiteren Verwendung.
->airframe is a loss but parts can be salvaged for further use
45 - 59 % = Schwerbesch�digtes Flugzeug, Ersatz von Grossbauteilen erforderlich, Werftaufenthalt.
->heavily damaged, needs replacement of a major airframe component, needs highest level repairshop
40 - 44 % = Besch�digtes Flugzeug, Ersatz von Triebwerken oder Systemen ( z.b. Fahrwerk, Hydraulik etc.) erforderlich.
-> damaged, needs replacement of engine or system (f.e. Hydraulics or undercarriage)
25 - 39 % = Sch�den bei denen eine Flugzeugdurchsicht beim Verband durchgef�hrt werden muss.
->damage that needs to be checked by higher level, Geschwader level?
10 - 24 % = Mittlere Beschu�sch�den, die durch kleinere Reparaturen behoben werden k�nnen.
-> middling bullet damage that be fixed with small repairs
Unter 10 % = Geringe Beschu�sch�den, die die 1. Warte beheben k�nnen.
->small bullet damage that can be repaired by ?Squadron?

Thanks for much more detailed explanation of a graduation that was used.

Imho, one of the problem about inadequate air losses in the game caused by that devs trying to use overall historical data but the game haven't so many "secondary" things. Like aircrafts in the game have less options for missions, targets, threats, causes why a/c was destroyed or damaged. Such things was much more complicated. Planes was used for much more various transport missions (medical evacuation, mail delivery etc, tactical landing (?) ), for adjustment(?) of artillery fire, against enemy warships/vessels on seas, lakes, rivers; non-recon planes used for recon missions), these planes can be targetted by enemy AA guns of warships/vessels, (armored) trains. Planes can be even damaged/destroyed by friendly fire or be rammed (?). There are so many factors that the game currently not used.
Also I wonder why is devs don't want to use many stuff from the amazing War in the Pacific. This game probably still has best naval and air components.

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/28/2021 6:57:19 AM

Iam5not8

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quote:

Imho, one of the problem about inadequate air losses in the game caused by that devs trying to use overall historical data

Inadequate losses ? that is questionable.

On a given mission, I may not fully agree with the results and the characteristics used to compute the ops losses -for example in clear weather, highly exp pilots, the ops losses are too high IMHO.

But on the other hand, on the few GC41 played, as GER, or SOV, versus Human or AI, the overall losses, and their split between combat air ops losses are quite consistent with sources as "Strategy for Defeat, The Luftwaffe 1933-1945" by W. MURRAY.

THen ops losses are highly dependant on the way you set your mission, particularly the staging base.

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/28/2021 9:11:39 AM

Dreamslayer

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Would be nice to add to this discussion a staistics about sorties (sorties per day).

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/28/2021 11:41:20 PM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iam5not8

quote:

Imho, one of the problem about inadequate air losses in the game caused by that devs trying to use overall historical data

Inadequate losses ? that is questionable.

On a given mission, I may not fully agree with the results and the characteristics used to compute the ops losses -for example in clear weather, highly exp pilots, the ops losses are too high IMHO.

But on the other hand, on the few GC41 played, as GER, or SOV, versus Human or AI, the overall losses, and their split between combat air ops losses are quite consistent with sources as "Strategy for Defeat, The Luftwaffe 1933-1945" by W. MURRAY.

THen ops losses are highly dependant on the way you set your mission, particularly the staging base.

Does Murray go into detail on what loss definitions he uses?

In the game Pilot losses are in general about 80-90% of airframe losses. The examples above are on the extreme side but including non combat airframe write offs the it should probably be more like 10-20%, though in western europe it should probably be higher.

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/28/2021 11:45:01 PM

MechFO

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

quote:

When I open up a list from http://airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luftloss/luftloss.html, what are the 2 categories on the right? cant figure them out.

Probably it was problem because of extra symbol in your link - ",".
Anyway, http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luftloss/luftloss.html. What 2 categories are you talking about? Or you about column names from spreadsheets? Like this http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luftloss/luftloss01-10-08-41.html
Could you post a screenshot?

Место
Часть
Тип
Зав. (борт.) номер
Причина
Судьба экипажа
Флот

Location
Unit
Type
Serial
Cause?
?
?

Огонь ЗА is this AA?

< Message edited by MechFO -- 9/29/2021 12:18:11 AM >

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/29/2021 12:17:16 AM

MechFO

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Comparing KG27 for March 1942

From Bestandesmeldung 15 Combat and 3 NonCombat losses.

Below are 21 damage events, 11>60, 2>45,1>40, 5>25, 1>10, 1 unknown (engine failure)

The events >40 would add up to 14, though at least one seems non combat related. The non combat related events all seem to have resulted in low damage, leading to the question where the 3 Noncombat airframe losses are coming from. Either way at least from the below it seems that 40+% resulted in writeoffs.

43 Personnel losses, though of course that includes aircrew.

4 аэ. Кировоград 3./KG27 He111H-5 4015 25 Отказ двигателя - 4
2 Холм 4./KG27 He111H-6 4876 (1G+BM) 100 Боевые повреждения б/в 5 1
2 Изюм 7./KG27 He111H-6 4249 (1G+GR) 100 ? б/в 5 4
4 аэ. Кировоград 3./KG27 He111H-5 4015 25 Отказ двигателя - 4
8 Ленинск 2./KG27 He111H-6 4229 (1G+HK) 100 ? б/в 2,+2 4
3 (Новороссийск) III./KG27 He111H-6 4911 (1G+AO) 100 ? б/в 4 4
2 Клазеновка 2./KG27 He111H-6 4288 30 Огонь ЗА - 4
2 Васильевка I./KG27 He111H-6 4316 50 Боевые повреждения - 4
3 Новороссийск 8./KG27 He111H-6 4734 15 Огонь ЗА =2 4
6 Грамматиково 3./KG27 He111H-6 4518 ? Отказ двигателя - 4
3 аэ. Дно 4./KG27 He111H-6 4865 30 Огонь ЗА, посадка на фюзеляж - 1
7 ок. Глушицы 6./KG27 He111H-6 4927 40 Огонь ЗА, вынужденная посадка - 1
7 Чанки I./KG27 He111H-6 4552 50 Огонь ЗА - 4
8 аэ. Коровье Село 4./KG27 He111H-6 4840 70 Посадка на фюзеляж (неб.) - 1
9 Короча III./KG27 He111H-6 4540 100 Огонь ЗА +5 4
3 Харьков I./KG27 He111H-6 4488 30 Огонь ЗА - 4
4 Харьков III./KG27 He111H-6 4600 100 Огонь ЗА +5 4
2 Старая Русса 4./KG27 He111H-6 4854 (1G+GM) 100 ? б/в 5 1
5 ок. Старой Руссы 5./KG27 He111H-6 4863 100 Огонь стрелкового оружия, вынужденная посадка, уничтожен экипажем - 1
5 Камыш - Бурун 1./KG27 He111H-6 4281 (1G+LH) 100 Атака истребителя б/в 5 4
6 Камыш - Бурун 1./KG27 He111H-6 4603 (1G+BF) 100 Атака истребителя б/в 5 4

< Message edited by MechFO -- 9/29/2021 12:30:42 AM >

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/29/2021 5:02:03 AM

Dreamslayer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO
Location
Unit
Type
Serial
Cause?
?
?

Location
Unit
Type
Serial(factory) or board number , not sure how is it correct
Cause
Fate of the crew
Air Fleet

Some spreadsheets also has column marked "З" - Mission(Sortie), there F - combat mission, H - non-combat.

quote:

Огонь ЗА is this AA?

Yes, it is.

http://www.airwar.ru/history/av2ww/axis/luftloss/luftloss.html - there are below you can find a notes about abbreviations, designations :

quote:

Примечания:

В тексте сводок используются следующие сокращения и обозначения:
? - неизвестно;
+ - разбился (самолет)/погиб (член экипажа);
= - ранен;
б/в - пропал без вести,
- (прочерк) - данные не приводятся.
АБ - авиабомба;
аэ. - аэродром;
БШУ - бомбо-штурмовой удар;
вост. - восточнее;
вын. - вынужденная;
г. - город;
д. - деревня;
жд. ст. - железнодорожная станция;
ЗА - зенитная артиллерия;
зап. - западнее;
ЗПл - зенитные пулеметы;
м. - мыс;
неразб. - неразборчиво;
оз. - озеро;
ок. - около, в районе;
п-ов - полуостров;
прол. - пролив;
р. - река;
свх. - совхоз;
сев. - севернее, северный;
с-вост. - северо-восточнее;
с-зап. - северо-западнее;
ю-вост. - юго-восточнее;
ю-зап. - юго-западнее;
южн. - южнее.

Если в столбце "Место" употребляются названия в скобках, например (Кобрин), то это район выполнения задания. То есть в немецких документах в этом случае указано не конкретное место повреждения или гибели самолета, а цель вылета. В том случае, когда мы не смогли сделать точный обратный перевод географических наименований, они даются курсивом в немецком написании.

В столбце "Флот", цифры означают номер соответствующего Воздушного флота Люфтваффе. Для обозначения авиационных командований Люфтваффе использованные следующие буквы: для "Авиакомандования Дон" - буква "D", для авиации, оперативно подчиненной Командованию Сухопутными войсками - буква "H", для самолетов аналогичным образом подчиненных Кригсмарине - буква "М", для "Авиакомандования Восток" - буква "О", для транспортной авиации - буква "Т", для специальной авиации - буква "S", для "Авиакомандования Центр" - буква "Z". Отметим, что специальная авиация это не "спецназ" (специальная разведка), как можно было бы предположить, а аналог армейских специальных частей (связь, саперы и т.д.), т.е. авиационные подразделения выполняющие специальные задачи боевого обеспечения. Цифрой "8" обозначается не флот, а авиакорпус, некоторое время действовавший самостоятельно.

Under some spreadsheets you can find a notes about some specific episodes.

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/29/2021 3:24:38 PM

jubjub

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Hopefully y'all can figure out and prove that the operations loss/sortie for the eastern front were much lower than they currently are in game.

Total losses for the Luftwaffe raiding Britain during August 18, 1940 were 7.3% per sortie, with ops losses contributing .3% to the total. This was considered unsustainable attrition by the Germans. In game, the best you can do is 1% ops losses per sortie (flying right next to the airbase), and 5-10% is pretty typical. Once you factor in losses from AA and A2A, you easily get over 10% attrition rates per sortie. These loss rates pretty much force the Luftwaffe to stay on the ground unless you absolutely need it.

< Message edited by jubjub -- 9/29/2021 3:26:32 PM >

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/29/2021 3:38:36 PM

Jango32

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I only have data for 1941 on hand, but there were 327 Luftwaffe planes written off as operational losses on the eastern front.

Will leave the page I took a photo of as a link instead of embedding it, it's too big. https://i.imgur.com/yzsTREw.jpg

For the VVS in 1941 the official figure is 50% (exactly) of the official 21 000 losses were operational, but it is extremely unlikely that the Krivosheev study can be taken at face value when it concerns this operational loss figure. It's likelier that at most 20-25% of VVS losses in 1941 were operational in nature.

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 9/29/2021 3:45:47 PM >

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/29/2021 3:41:59 PM

jubjub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

I only have data for 1941 on hand, but there were 327 Luftwaffe planes written off as operational losses on the eastern front.

Will leave the page I took a photo of as a link instead of embedding it, it's too big. https://i.imgur.com/yzsTREw.jpg

Does the source include a number of sorties flown during this time period?

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RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/29/2021 3:57:38 PM

Jango32

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I don't have data for all LW units and for all periods in 1941, but here are some examples. Between the 12th of September and the 21st of September, V Fliegerkorps flew 1 422 sorties. Flieger Fuhrer Ostsee flew 1 775 sorties by the 31st of August.

On the first night of Barbarossa and in the next days in June, the bombers flew 4 to 6 sorties a day, dive bombers flew 7 to 8 and the fighters 5 to 8.

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 20

RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/29/2021 4:58:00 PM

MechFO

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

I only have data for 1941 on hand, but there were 327 Luftwaffe planes written off as operational losses on the eastern front.

Will leave the page I took a photo of as a link instead of embedding it, it's too big. https://i.imgur.com/yzsTREw.jpg

Not that clear it was 327.

It's not clear how losses for unknown reasons were categorized and it seems that only incidents with 60%> damage are included in that number.

Much lower damage % led to write offs but there was no report that tracks the link.

There also seems to have been no consistent guidance or policy on how the above events should be reported.

< Message edited by MechFO -- 9/29/2021 4:59:05 PM >

(in reply to Jango32)

Post #: 21

RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/29/2021 5:13:15 PM

Jango32

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
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quote:

By 27 December 1941 German aircraft losses in the east were 2,505 destroyed, 327 of which were not due to enemy action, and 1,895 damaged. This meant that within six months of the opening of the eastern front 4,400 aircraft were permanently or temporarily out of action. On other fronts during this period an additional 1,330 front-line aircraft were lost, 779 totally. Total losses on all fronts since the beginning of the war in the east were therefore 5,730, about three-quarters of them in the east. This figure represented a third of all losses of front-line aircraft in the twenty-eight months since the outbreak of the war.

What it uses to cite these is:

quote:

Cf. Reports on the combat-readiness of the flying units as of 21 June and 27 Dec. 1941.
Generalquartiermeister der Luftwaffe, 6. Abt., 24 June, 30 Dec. 1941, BA-MA RL 2 Ш/713, 716.

Inaccurate figures in the original texts prevent precise calculations; however, the figures are sufficient to illustrate the general situation of the Luftwaffe. Somewhat different figures in Groehler, �Verluste der deutschen Luftwaffe�, 330-1

< Message edited by Jango32 -- 9/29/2021 5:14:35 PM >

(in reply to MechFO)

Post #: 22

RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 9/29/2021 5:16:01 PM

MechFO

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
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As to training losses; another forum had these numbers from the Luftwaffe schools only, this includes all air crew but also includes accidents on the ground f.e. during infantry training. Bad weather heavily restricted training during winter, most probably the reason for the big reduction in Oktober.

https://www.forum-der-wehrmacht.de/index.php?thread/54356-luftwaffenverluste-w%C3%A4hrend-der-flugausbildung/&pageNo=2

01.09.1939 � 09.05.1940 Tote: 499 Verw.: 376
10.- 31.05.1940 Tote: 178 Verw.: 77
Juni 1940 Tote: 134 Verw.: 73
Juli 1940 Tote: 150 Verw.: 75
August 1940 Tote: 141 Verw.: 105
September 1940 Tote: 104 Verw.: 109
Oktober 1940 Tote: 115 Verw.: 101
November 1940 Tote: 73 Verw.: 68
Dezember 1940 Tote: 81 Verw.: 47
Januar 1941 Tote: 88 Verw.: 49
Februar 1941 Tote: 120 Verw.: 54
M�rz 1941 Tote: 111 Verw.: 73
April 1941 Tote: 149 Verw.: 83
Mai 1941 Tote: 132 Verw.: 133
Juni 1941 Tote: 117 Verw.: 114
Juli 1941 Tote: 122 Verw.: 108
August 1941 Tote: 142 Verw.: 105
September 1941 Tote: 118 Verw.: 66
Oktober 1941 Tote: 8 Verw.: 82

< Message edited by MechFO -- 9/29/2021 5:18:13 PM >

(in reply to MechFO)

Post #: 23

RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 10/5/2021 7:30:31 PM

MechFO

Posts: 669
Joined: 6/1/2007
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March 1942 is one of the few months where we have Dreamslayers incident reports as well as numbers for written off airframes.

I've broken down the 109 events, the units involved are JG3 (without II), JG51, JG52, JG54, JG77 and I./SchG1. Some elements are in Germany but don't report any losses for this period.

These units reported 45 combat damage write offs, 33 non combat write offs and 22 sent for overhaul.

The total number of incidents are 132 of which

Unknown: Damage 60-100% (15)
Combat: Damage 60-100% (29 inkl. 6 ground)) 40-59% (9) 25-39% (13) 0-25% (14)
Ops: Damage 60-100% (13) 40-59% (15) 25-39% (14) 0-25% (10)

One immediately notices that the only way the write offs for March can in any way be achieved is if damage % as low as 40% are getting written off. I haven't checked the pilot losses for the units yet but they are probably low. Many of the 40-59% damaged airframes seem to be going to overhaul, unlike the KG unit above, which makes sense since a 109 is much easier to move or get large replacement elements for.

IMO a much needed fix would be to lower normal Ops losses, increase the damage events, and cause heavily damaged airframes to not be repaired but instead written off. If possible maybe scale with airfield size, but if that is too much effort than a straight write off of damaged airframes above f.e. 50% would be a start.

I'll check the pilot losses and see if I can do the same for Ju88/He111 next.

Pilot Losses March 1942 that I can find

JG3 exII. 3 combat, 1 Ops (wrote off 7 aircraft due to combat damage, 6 non combat)
JG51 no losses (wrote off 5 aircraft due to combat damage, 15 non combat)
JG52 3 combat, 1 unknown (wrote off 4 aircraft due to combat damage, 3 non combat)

< Message edited by MechFO -- 10/9/2021 2:09:01 PM >

(in reply to MechFO)

Post #: 24

RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 10/6/2021 7:45:23 AM

Dreamslayer

Posts: 452
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MechFO
March 1942 is one of the few months where we have Dreamslayers incident reports as well as numbers for written off airframes.

Come on, it isn't my reports = P
It's a data from articles of Aleksandr Zablotskiy (Александр Заблотский) and Roman Larintsev (Роман Ларинцев). They're Russian military historians who specialize on the aviation, also they wrote a few books.
From the first article (translated by Google, sorry):

quote:

First of all, it should be recognized that today, absolutely reliable sources disclosing the damage suffered by the German Air Force do not exist. We have already repeatedly emphasized the rather complex and ambiguous nature of the information given in the reports of the losses of the service of the Quartermaster General of the Luftwaffe. Nevertheless, we repeat once again: the OKL reports are not the ultimate truth. There are both documented cases of their incompleteness, even in terms of irrecoverable losses, and no less reliable episodes of the presence of erroneous information in them. That is, summaries are good starting material, but nothing more.

_____________________________

(in reply to MechFO)

Post #: 25

RE: JG51 Losses, Pilot losses, accidents - 10/7/2021 7:20:53 AM

Iam5not8

Posts: 578
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Hopefully y'all can figure out and prove that the operations loss/sortie for the eastern front were much lower than they currently are in game.

Another example, on the northern ferry route between US and UK, the losses reached 10%, with one of the most reliable WWII plane aka B17.
That's pure ops losses, on a well knwow route, equipped with the lattest navigation equipment at that time.

If the way the ops losses are definitively challengeable, specfically criteria, nevertheless the total ops losses on a GC, or on few months do not seem to be out historical data.

At then end of nov 1941, only about 40% of the German crew bombers were operational, and about 60% of the fighers one.

@dev teams, when the game says mission or sortie, what does that really mean ?

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 26