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PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 12:36:26 AM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		I'm in 1943, playing 01.01.09 beta and I'm finding recurrence of an issue that Morvael sorted in WitE1, but worse. Axis mechanised formations seem to have several slots for med tanks, but neither is defined to be filled by any type, likewise in mot/PzG divs. Result is numerous divisions with 2 battalions of Pz V or 2 of Ps IV and none of other types etc. Mot/PzG seem to have an equal chance of getting Pz IV or V as a Pz Div, when I thought they were more likely to get Pz III or StuGs.

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 12:14:27 PM   
Joel Billings


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From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		How was this dealt with in WitE? I think there is a slight preference for what is listed in the ob, but could be very slight.

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 12:55:15 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		As I recall, Morvael made some alterations to how slots were filled. Mot/PzG tank units were equipped with assault guns or 2nd line MBTs like Pz III's, instead of IV's and V's. Pz divs would have a mix of MBT types. In 1943 this could be III's and IV's. As Pz V's re-equipped a battalion in each Pz rgt, the III's were dropped. Shortages of MBT, however, could be filled with StuGs and other turretless tanks. Best to ask him for precise details.

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 1:04:44 PM   
Nix77

 

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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

I'm in 1943, playing 01.01.09 beta and I'm finding recurrence of an issue that Morvael sorted in WitE1, but worse. Axis mechanised formations seem to have several slots for med tanks, but neither is defined to be filled by any type, likewise in mot/PzG divs. Result is numerous divisions with 2 battalions of Pz V or 2 of Ps IV and none of other types etc. Mot/PzG seem to have an equal chance of getting Pz IV or V as a Pz Div, when I thought they were more likely to get Pz III or StuGs.


There's a/b/c/d/e-versions of the SS Panzergrenadier Division ToE, and a/b/c of the regular PzG. Some of the SS divs have Panther V and PzIV, the regular PzG divs have PzIII/PzIV or just Stugs, depending if they're a/b/c ToE.

What you're seeing is probably majority of the divisions you're looking at being SS with d/e ToE, or just shortage of PzIII and StugIII in the pool and Panthers being used as PzIV replacements?

PzIII/PzIV/Panther are all medium tanks, and should be filling "medium tank" slots, with the actual ToE ground element being preferred like Joel said.

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 1:10:55 PM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

I'm in 1943, playing 01.01.09 beta and I'm finding recurrence of an issue that Morvael sorted in WitE1, but worse. Axis mechanised formations seem to have several slots for med tanks, but neither is defined to be filled by any type, likewise in mot/PzG divs. Result is numerous divisions with 2 battalions of Pz V or 2 of Ps IV and none of other types etc. Mot/PzG seem to have an equal chance of getting Pz IV or V as a Pz Div, when I thought they were more likely to get Pz III or StuGs.


I've a game into late Sept 44 and not really seeing this. here's a fairly typical Pzr division, running around with a mix of IVj and IIIj as its medium tanks.



and my active pools.



In WiTW I saw some fairly extreme swaps such as Hvy Pzr battalion using Stugs and the WiTE2 code is going to be far closer to WiTW than any post .07 WiTE1 routines

As ever its hard to pull them off the line to refit but I'm not seeing formations short of medium tanks when there are plenty of assets notionally available

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 1:16:01 PM   
Nix77

 

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From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

As I recall, Morvael made some alterations to how slots were filled. Mot/PzG tank units were equipped with assault guns or 2nd line MBTs like Pz III's, instead of IV's and V's. Pz divs would have a mix of MBT types. In 1943 this could be III's and IV's. As Pz V's re-equipped a battalion in each Pz rgt, the III's were dropped. Shortages of MBT, however, could be filled with StuGs and other turretless tanks. Best to ask him for precise details.


Ok I think there were changes in the WitE1 later patches that enabled the elements to be changed to different type:

quote:

(7.2.2.2) Ground Element Upgrade/Downgrade and Swaps
Ground elements may change to different ground elements of the same or a different type during the ground
element segment of the player's logistics phase (4.2). In the upgrade sub-segment, the ground element may
upgrade in accordance with its upgrade path as listed in the ground element detail window (5.4.20) and the city
production list window (5.4.4). It may also downgrade to older equipment (21.1.9.1).

Many upgrades will remain within the same ground element type (e.g. Rifle Squad, Medium Tank, Heavy Artillery,
etc.), but some will result in a change of type, including AFV in which the upgrade is based on the equipment chassis (i.e. Panzer 38(t) Light Tank to Marder III Light Tank Destroyer).

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 2:23:12 PM   
Mehring

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

What you're seeing is probably majority of the divisions you're looking at being SS with d/e ToE, or just shortage of PzIII and StugIII in the pool and Panthers being used as PzIV replacements?

PzIII/PzIV/Panther are all medium tanks, and should be filling "medium tank" slots, with the actual ToE ground element being preferred like Joel said.

What I am seeing refers to Heer mot units, not 43 PzG as I thought. Checking right now, late June 43, all the Pz IV/V have been swapped out of PzG as they upgrade from mot, and replaced with assault guns. Currently not a single Heer PzG has an MBT battalion, all StuGs, except Grossdeutschland which does have two slots of V's.

There remain 4 mot divs, 2 each with a battalion of IVG and H. Mot divs were among the first to receive the newest MBT and there have always been hundreds of StuGs and Pz III in the pools.

I'm also seeing numerous Pz Divs with multiple battalion slots filled with the same vehicle, 2xPZ V or IV, though either or both can be sparsely equipped.

I'm also finding on map refit on a 4 priority depot with HQ far behind the lines relatively ineffective for gaining vehicles from the pool. I have to return to reserve and place on refit to get a good chance of re-equipping. The duplicate battalions can happen on map or in reserve.






Attachment (1)

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 3:10:14 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Can you show the detailed ToE window for the unit? Press the "ToE 90/90" to get that one. Also seeing the production pools would help to see which panzers are available.

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 4:44:22 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Active Pools




Attachment (1)

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 4:45:09 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Transit Pools




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 10
RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 4:45:53 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		ToE




Attachment (1)

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 5:13:06 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		AFAIR there were some changes in WitE to prevent having the same tank type in 2 slots (unless OB specifies this).
Changes were also made to accept just the tank type the OB called for or those following its upgrade paths (down- and upwards) pending its of the same type.

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 6:10:32 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline 		43a Panzer Division has 74xPzIIIm and 74xPzIVg in ToE, both medium tanks. The Panther is a viable option for those, and none of these types pools are really that high, the Panther actually being the most plentiful. The 20xPzIIIn are the CS tanks.

Nothing wrong in that lineup imo, since the ToE actually has twice the "74xMedium Tanks" entry, right?

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 6:22:37 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

43a Panzer Division has 74xPzIIIm and 74xPzIVg in ToE, both medium tanks. The Panther is a viable option for those, and none of these types pools are really that high, the Panther actually being the most plentiful. The 20xPzIIIn are the CS tanks.

Nothing wrong in that lineup imo, since the ToE actually has twice the "74xMedium Tanks" entry, right?

I can't tell you when those allocations were made, or the pool levels when they were made. I can say that I believe it to be an ahistorical ToE and that units that should have Pz IV and V are not getting them while those that wouldn't have them, are. I don't believe there were any Pz divs equipped solely with Pz III, IV or V MBT. So it doesn't work for me. Morvael sorted it in v1.

< Message edited by Mehring -- 10/5/2021 6:24:21 PM >

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 9:40:34 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mehring

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nix77

43a Panzer Division has 74xPzIIIm and 74xPzIVg in ToE, both medium tanks. The Panther is a viable option for those, and none of these types pools are really that high, the Panther actually being the most plentiful. The 20xPzIIIn are the CS tanks.

Nothing wrong in that lineup imo, since the ToE actually has twice the "74xMedium Tanks" entry, right?

I can't tell you when those allocations were made, or the pool levels when they were made. I can say that I believe it to be an ahistorical ToE and that units that should have Pz IV and V are not getting them while those that wouldn't have them, are. I don't believe there were any Pz divs equipped solely with Pz III, IV or V MBT. So it doesn't work for me. Morvael sorted it in v1.


Oh wait I actually checked that wrong. Your active pool for PzIIIm is one (1!), and four tanks for PzIVg. There are still 40 Panther D in the active pool, so you might have had 180+ of them before 6th PzDiv replenished it's medium tanks. That's probably why both medium tank slots have Panthers.

quote:

What I am seeing refers to Heer mot units, not 43 PzG as I thought. Checking right now, late June 43, all the Pz IV/V have been swapped out of PzG as they upgrade from mot, and replaced with assault guns. Currently not a single Heer PzG has an MBT battalion, all StuGs, except Grossdeutschland which does have two slots of V's.


Apparently only 43b Panzergrenadier Division has MBTs in their ToE, but I can't find any division that upgrades to this ToE, or uses it. Is this an oversight or was it actually so that PzGrDivs in 1943 did have one assault guns and TDs in ToE, not MBTs?

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RE: PZ/PzG equipment slots - 10/5/2021 10:41:05 PM   
Mehring

 

Posts: 2179
Joined: 1/25/2007
Status: offline 		Your active pool for PzIIIm is one (1!), and four tanks for PzIVg. There are still 40 Panther D in the active pool, so you might have had 180+ of them before 6th PzDiv replenished it's medium tanks. That's probably why both medium tank slots have Panthers.
Like I say, I can't be sure exactly when those Pz V were added, but not necessarily the last turn. I would have to find an older save and look there, but don't have time now. All the same, there were 43 active Pz IIIJ's which would have filled a slot and other Pz divs in reserve drawing replacements. Above is just one example. Several others have two battalions of IVH's and no III's or V's. It's clear to me that the medium tank slots are generic. I'm no expert on ToE but I don't believe it was historical practice to have 2 battalions of the same tank type. I'm less sure of this but think it's possible that some battalions may have contained companies of Pz III and others of IV types. In passing, Reich had a company of T 34's at Kursk.

Is this an oversight or was it actually so that PzGrDivs in 1943 did have one assault guns and TDs in ToE, not MBTs?
Again, this is only an impression but I believe Heer mot/PzG divs were always second in line for equipment and got what was left over. By 1944, many Pz Divs had a mixed battalion of MBTs and another of StuG's. At any rate, the rule of thumb is that what was fielded in reality was less than that designated in standard ToE. So a Pz div not fielding a designated Pz III battalion in summer/autumn 43 sounds highly unlikely, likewise a mot div having a battalion of Pz IV or V.


< Message edited by Mehring -- 10/5/2021 10:43:16 PM >

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