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RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 2:43:55 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		I was wondering what KG2 could achieve alone with 63 Do 17. I defined another box, not too far from their bases, where 500 Soviet aircraft were based:




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RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 2:53:25 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		The results were quite high at 410 kills for 192 sorties, higher than Ju 88, then probably due to lucky rolls.




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RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 3:03:15 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		Still, I believe now that the other AD is probably an overkill with 8 Groups assigned for 549 targets and should be optimized later. The staging base was auto-set at Memel and it's far from optimum for the other Ju 88 groups (other than KG1). This wrong path, making them fly much more than necessary, would reduce seriously the number of sortie they are capable of.

I'll stop there and will post the results of the whole process for the entire flotte when it's been completed.

But so far, not a single bomber was shot down due to interception and not a single fighter was flown as escort. I'm sure it will happen at one point and I'll post it too.

< Message edited by metaphore -- 9/26/2021 3:09:46 PM >

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Post #: 63
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 3:17:17 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		I've run some tests for an upcoming human vs human game in the Road to Leningrad scenario.

Summary:

Losses:

AD & positioning:

KG 77:

I've moved KG 76 to Insterburg and KG 1 to Memel, and KG 77 at those two bases in the image above. I've left the fighters where they start with, and I've moved the recon units in the rear bases. Did not fiddle with Flieger Fuhrer Ostsee.

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Post #: 64
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 3:36:29 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jango32

I've run some tests for an upcoming human vs human game in the Road to Leningrad scenario.

I've moved KG 76 to Insterburg and KG 1 to Memel, and KG 77 at those two bases in the image above. I've left the fighters where they start with, and I've moved the recon units in the rear bases. Did not fiddle with Flieger Fuhrer Ostsee.


Hi Jango,
Thank you for posting your AD.
(edit: *I do need a new pair of glasses)

< Message edited by metaphore -- 9/26/2021 3:43:24 PM >

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Post #: 65
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 3:42:05 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Hardradi;

"When you hit the fighter base with enough force on the first run it is usually cooked and will no fly again."

You are correct. It just took me some outside the box thinking to make it happen.

"What is your acceptable Luftwaffe loss rate for turn 1? 10:1 15:1 20:1
Compare this to your loss rate after T1.

By using the tips and techniques you and others have provided I am achieving above 20:1. Nearly all of the losses are operational.

I do not use boxes. I escort when my gut says to. I hit the fighter airfields 2x just to be sure. Sometimes I use only a single squadron or group for the job. Except for Dive bombers I go at 5000 ft. I am still working on what to to do with ME-110's.

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Post #: 66
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 3:58:22 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		@ Jango and GibsonPete,
To both of you, I strongly suggest that you give a good look and a try at jubjub's method here how to make safe and very effective AD.
Because what you are both doing is not 100% safe, even if it might work 95% of the time, but once you'll get intercepted, it's exactly what jubjub is telling that would happen: a chain disaster.

The method I'm doing is really different but I don't know if you can tell the difference with your own.

< Message edited by metaphore -- 9/26/2021 4:04:40 PM >

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Post #: 67
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 4:19:17 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete
I do not use boxes. I escort when my gut says to. I hit the fighter airfields 2x just to be sure. Sometimes I use only a single squadron or group for the job. Except for Dive bombers I go at 5000 ft.


I've used those boxes to do mass bombing of airfields without any staged AD (all are at the same priority level) because it doesn't matter with my method. It's not what I was supposed to do at first, I was aiming for some kind of "chirurgical" strike on valuable targets.

In fact the later was harder to build than I thought, and is way less "spectacular" effect wise (number of kills at the end of the Air Phase). Also, it's probably not possible to evaluate its full effectiveness before the end of the first turn (meaning after the Ground Phase).


< Message edited by metaphore -- 9/26/2021 4:51:06 PM >

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Post #: 68
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 9:03:16 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		metaphore;
I will consider your advice on boxes. It seems like a simpler method with similar results.

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Post #: 69
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/26/2021 11:11:57 PM   
sanch

 

Posts: 421
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline 		One thing I have found is that if normal unescorted bombers get intercepted, the losses are 70-80% - not good. However, if a Me110 bombing mission gets intercepted, the losses are only 50% or so, plus some VVS fighters go down. The downside to the Me110 bombing runs are they are less effective at obliterating the airfield. So I'll use the Me110's on longer-range or more-risk runs.

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 70
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/27/2021 6:58:13 AM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

metaphore;
I will consider your advice on boxes. It seems like a simpler method with similar results.

Probably better results overall for mass bombing because it's also allowing to extract more sorties from your Air Groups than when they are used independently.

It's working by pooling all the aircraft before sending them to strike different targets. The draw back is that one need to find a common staging base for all the Groups affected to the box. Moreover, you can't control the priority level of your strike inside the same box - so it's very dangerous when aircraft are left unescorted.

That's why I'm pointing out at jubjub's method which is making a very good use of those boxes and is also very safe.

Of course, you could also do my method, which is safe, but you would have to strictly respect some settings in your ADs. I've posted above a raid near Leningrad where you can see them.

< Message edited by metaphore -- 9/27/2021 7:22:06 AM >

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Post #: 71
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/27/2021 7:19:25 AM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanch

One thing I have found is that if normal unescorted bombers get intercepted, the losses are 70-80% - not good. However, if a Me110 bombing mission gets intercepted, the losses are only 50% or so, plus some VVS fighters go down. The downside to the Me110 bombing runs are they are less effective at obliterating the airfield. So I'll use the Me110's on longer-range or more-risk runs.

Hi sanch,
That's right, interception of unescorted bomber is turning into a real massacre each time it's happening and it's not uncommon to suffer up to 100% losses.

Still, a 50% losses rate for Bf 110 doesn't look ok and, when they are intercepted, you are going to lose a lot of aircraft for achieving nothing at all!

(in reply to sanch)
Post #: 72
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 9/27/2021 9:03:49 AM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		And because interception is just having such a devastating effect on unescorted bombers, it's something everybody want to avoid, right?

So why the hell is nobody asking why my bomb runs which, for the most part, SHOULD HAVE BEEN INTERCEPTED, are simply and quietly going thru every major enemy fighter bases without interception at all?

The reason is that I'm just doing Stealth Bombing:
Since the begining, I'm only sending raids of 1 aircraft (but a lot of raids - as many as the force is allowed to generate).

So, try it yourself, Strike of 1 aircraft are barely undetectable and are doing pretty much the same nominal damage as if they were sent by 12, 24 or 240.

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Post #: 73
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 12:24:30 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		For my T1 air campaign, I change the load outs to use 50 pound bombs, give the fighters drop tanks, usually run single hex GA missions (in some places you can do 1 or 3 hex range) and set the number of strikes to 1 (unless you use the 1-3 hex range then you set it to the number of air bases to hit each one) and set all the GA to D1 only. I start with all the fighter bases closest to the boarder and work my way from north to south, and then back again for the bases with fighters a bit further back and lastly go for any of the remaining bases with bombers if needed.

I had 11 GA for Luft 1, 17 for Luft 2, and 29 for Luft 4.

This is with my solo game vs the AI I just started for testing purposes on version 0.15 (beta) and while I destroyed a good number of Soviet planes, my losses are not optimal. While watching the Air Phase execution my bombing missions on Sevastopol were chewed up a bit as well as a few others but looking at the map afterword's it looks like 12 air combats were intercepted by the Soviets, most of the damage was to German bombers unescorted or the great loss of the Me 110's in one attack.

I am going to post some screen shots by number and if any one can look and see where I can make improvements or suggestions its highly welcomed. I thought I did pretty good but I just would like to get my losses down in double digits or under 200 if that is even possible.

1. Total air losses from my AD's.




2. Total number of Soviet interceptions.



3. The worst of the intercepts here in the Gulf of Odessa, lost the most bombers here.



4. I had four intercepts right near the boarder by 2nd Panzer Group (adjacent to the 12th Panzer Division, i.e., (179,154)). There were two in this hex.

a.



b.



5. This one favored me, so it's shown for informational purposes.



6. This unescorted bombing mission took it on the chin.



7. This one my bombers were unescorted but you can see my AS missions kicked in here.



8. This one went well for me, I had both escorts and AS fighters kick in.



Thoughts, tips or other advice is welcomed.

I am interested in improving my air game.

_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

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Post #: 74
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 1:11:45 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I really wouldn't risk bombing Crimea and other distant targets, any fighter intercepts on un-escorted bombers are deadly.

You can get 3000+ SU aircraft destroyed during the air phase only with low risk and minimal losses, and probably another 1000 during the ground phase. I'd say that's more than enough for starters and you're better off saving those bombers for later use. Long range sorties also cause more operational losses, and I think there should be enough targets for the bombers during T1 to warrant skipping Crimea and other risky targets.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 75
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 1:22:59 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

I had 11 GA for Luft 1, 17 for Luft 2, and 29 for Luft 4.

This is with my solo game vs the AI I just started for testing purposes on version 0.15 (beta) and while I destroyed a good number of Soviet planes, my losses are not optimal. While watching the Air Phase execution my bombing missions on Sevastopol were chewed up a bit as well as a few others but looking at the map afterword's it looks like 12 air combats were intercepted by the Soviets, most of the damage was to German bombers unescorted or the great loss of the Me 110's in one attack.


Hi Zovs,

Actually, I was waiting for a new version fixing some bugs in Air War before continuing testing ADs but I could look at what you did.

If you could post something similar to what jubjub did in this thread, or anything usefull in order to reproduce precisely your ADs, it would then be much easier to test them and discuss the results (I can't tell if 0.15 beta would change much without trying that).

I've set up jubjub's ADs (as they are posted here http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=5079771) and I can tell that they worked very well in the South. After running them many times, I never get any of the few unescorted bomber missions to get intercepted at all.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 76
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 4:32:51 PM   
Teo41_ITA

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 9/2/2021
Status: offline 		Hi everyone, what an interesting thread!

So far I have been manually setting up GA ADs against single soviet airfields (7000 ft, 50 kg bombs, roughly 20 or 30 bombers/airfield, 1 bombing run if the airfield had < 100 planes, 2x if between 100 and 200). It's very tedious and time consuming and I was therefore wondering how do you select the airfields with planes when using the box method? In my hands, if I use the box my bombers are wasting precious fuel and bombs on empty airbases...

Thanks!

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Post #: 77
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 6:19:22 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

Hi everyone, what an interesting thread!

So far I have been manually setting up GA ADs against single soviet airfields (7000 ft, 50 kg bombs, roughly 20 or 30 bombers/airfield, 1 bombing run if the airfield had < 100 planes, 2x if between 100 and 200). It's very tedious and time consuming and I was therefore wondering how do you select the airfields with planes when using the box method? In my hands, if I use the box my bombers are wasting precious fuel and bombs on empty airbases...

Thanks!

Ok, I'll show in detail how to setup jubjub's method for AGN bombing.

(in reply to Teo41_ITA)
Post #: 78
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 6:32:34 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		Here are the ADs that we will reproduce (for AGN and AGC)




< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/13/2021 6:33:17 PM >

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Post #: 79
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 6:46:19 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		I'm starting a new campaign and I'm sending II/JG54 + Stab from Ebenrode to Memel to be used as escort.




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RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 7:20:55 PM   
Teo41_ITA

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 9/2/2021
Status: offline 		Hi metaphore,

thank for your message. Now it's clear how to hit 2 airbases twice using the box system. But how to prevent the empty one from being targeted? I guess I need more practice in setting up boxes!

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Post #: 81
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 8:55:49 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		Before building my first AD, I will delete all those automatically created at the start of the game and I will change the Air Doctrine for Ground Attack with those settings:





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Post #: 82
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 9:01:55 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

Hi metaphore,

thank for your message. Now it's clear how to hit 2 airbases twice using the box system. But how to prevent the empty one from being targeted? I guess I need more practice in setting up boxes!

Sorry, I got interrupted by familly business!
I'm showing that in a couple of posts :)
But, in short, the empty ones are never targeted!

(in reply to Teo41_ITA)
Post #: 83
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 9:06:59 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		Next, we need to check our aircraft loadouts:
- fighters are set without fuel tanks by default
- Bombers (level) are set to 50kg bombs without fuel tanks by default:




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Post #: 84
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 9:22:00 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		As I'm just implementing jubjub's ADs, I'll copy what he probably did himself:

- KG 77 was reassigned to Luftflotte 2
- StG 1, 2 & 77 were not used and set to REST on turn 1

And now, I think we are good in order to build the first AD.





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Post #: 85
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 9:36:07 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		Here is the first one, target (171,138) with 5 hexes area:




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Post #: 86
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 9:42:58 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		About AD settings, I just count the number of occupied airfields in the box and set it as the number of strike for this AD (1 strike per occupied airfield):




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Post #: 87
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 9:49:17 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		As recommanded by jubjub, we set 40 bombers escorted by 10 fighters for each strike.

The staging base was set at Memel (click on what was picked by the AI and change it) were we sent II/JG54 for escort

Everything else is left to auto for the AI to pick amongst Luftflotte 1 forces (138 fighters, 126 bombers)

< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/13/2021 9:51:33 PM >

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Post #: 88
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 10:03:57 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		Now, we can set the second and last AD for Luftflotte 1.

This time, we'll set 4 strikes (4 occupied airfields), each with 40 bombers and 10 escort, and keep the staging base were the AI put it at Blumenfeld:




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Post #: 89
RE: Luftwaffe vs VVS - GC41 - First Turn Bombing Tips - 10/13/2021 10:19:00 PM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline 		everything looks so far exactly like jubjub's post (above) and we can start to build Luftflotte 2's ADs




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< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/13/2021 10:21:24 PM >

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