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Is There A Future For TOAW?

 
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Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/22/2021 12:34:55 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Really. What's the deal? Is it off to the dustcart?

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/22/2021 1:28:30 PM   
jmlima

 

Posts: 782
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Really. What's the deal? Is it off to the dustcart?


Is it time for me to dust-off the end-of-the-year ceremonial tumbleweed graphic?

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/22/2021 5:16:26 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
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Status: offline 		Not at the moment sadly.

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/22/2021 8:50:53 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		I think it depends on the $$$ Matrix is willing to invest.

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/22/2021 9:33:24 PM   
gamer78

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

I think it depends on the $$$ Matrix is willing to invest.


Invest in scenario creation or engine you mean? Greek&Turkish War was at the very basic level (maybe kids will buy) as I see in TOAW'4.

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/22/2021 9:56:27 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		A new engine in C# based on Unity or Godot engine.

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/22/2021 10:56:31 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Really. What's the deal? Is it off to the dustcart?



Why?

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/23/2021 12:15:50 AM   
demyansk


Posts: 2840
Joined: 2/20/2008
Status: offline 		I don’t want anything similar to panzer Corp 2. I still rather play the original game and play it each day. I just don’t like the panzer 2 graphics, just too difficult to see the different units

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/23/2021 1:56:02 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fred98


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

Really. What's the deal? Is it off to the dustcart?



Why?


This thread: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5087773

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/23/2021 10:53:18 PM   
gamer78

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

A new engine in C# based on Unity or Godot engine.


Then similar can be said about War in the East&West series. No guarantee it will work better in modern computer. But scenario choice for player is at least solid.

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/24/2021 12:54:55 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gamer78


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

A new engine in C# based on Unity or Godot engine.


Then similar can be said about War in the East&West series. No guarantee it will work better in modern computer. But scenario choice for player is at least solid.


I don't know. Bugs that I find easy to correct are not yet solved since years. So, I am wondering if this is linked to an old engine running on a latest OS.
Since I don't have any answer, maybe the engine is so old that it can't be changed.

My personal impression is that this is time for a redesign.

_____________________________

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You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 11
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/24/2021 3:53:04 PM   
coachi

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 1/17/2018
Status: offline 		Use to play regularly. Cant get it to play on mac using emulator anymore

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/24/2021 4:01:11 PM   
sPzAbt653


Posts: 9511
Joined: 5/3/2007
From: east coast, usa
Status: offline 		Some of us have been involved in preliminary work on a new program. The main issue has been finding anyone willing to do the programming, or program writing, or whatever that part is called.

Edit: I should have said 'had been' as it has been a few years.

< Message edited by sPzAbt653 -- 10/24/2021 4:22:34 PM >

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/24/2021 5:23:37 PM   
76mm


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From: Washington, DC
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
Bugs that I find easy to correct are not yet solved since years. So, I am wondering if this is linked to an old engine running on a latest OS...maybe the engine is so old that it can't be changed.

My personal impression is that this is time for a redesign.

I suspect that the the bugs haven't been fixed because of a lack of programming resources rather than it just being an "old engine". pzgdnr fixed many bugs in EiA during his work on it. The fact that at least three people have worked on the code (Norm, Ralph, Bob) probably doesn't help, as at this point no one seems to fully understand the code.

Starting over would be a daunting task, something similar to what 2x3 seems to be doing with Steel Tigers. Would be great if it happened, but I'm not holding my breath.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 14
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/25/2021 8:13:35 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

Starting over would be a daunting task, something similar to what 2x3 seems to be doing with Steel Tigers. Would be great if it happened, but I'm not holding my breath.


Yes and back to my initial question, how many $$$ Matrix would like to invest in it?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 15
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/25/2021 10:59:32 PM   
pzgndr

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm
I suspect that the the bugs haven't been fixed because of a lack of programming resources rather than it just being an "old engine". pzgdnr fixed many bugs in EiA during his work on it.

Starting over would be a daunting task...


I'll say it is non-trivial to pick up someone else's massive source code and try to figure it out. It took me a couple of years and several fits and starts. I'm a bit more savvy now but I have scars. Anybody who thinks Matrix Games does all of the programming for all of the games and all they have to do is throw some resources at it doesn't understand what's involved. Except for a couple of in-house projects, all they do is publish some other developer's work and it's up to the developer (original, or some new guy) to do the work.

Considering that Marshall Ellis spent a half dozen years working on EIA prior to its release and another half dozen years trying to fix it and improve it, and then I've spent another half dozen years making bug fixes, AI improvements, and other game enhancements (and STILL some players are not satisfied), to start over AGAIN from scratch coding in C# or something else would be a daunting task indeed. And, oh look, here comes Windows 11 with more surprises. Yeah. And they ask me why I drink...

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Empires in Arms Development Team

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/26/2021 12:09:31 PM   
76mm


Posts: 4688
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
I'll say it is non-trivial to pick up someone else's massive source code and try to figure it out. It took me a couple of years and several fits and starts. I'm a bit more savvy now but I have scars.

I didn't mean to imply that it would be trivial, just that it is possible--you've shown that, notwithstanding the scars. That said, given that TOAW is even older than EiA, and has passed through more hands, I would expect that fixing TOAW would be even more difficult.

(in reply to pzgndr)
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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/26/2021 12:13:29 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pzgndr
Except for a couple of in-house projects, all they do is publish some other developer's work and it's up to the developer (original, or some new guy) to do the work.

I've heard that Matrix actually owns a significant stake in TOAW; if so, TOAW would seem to qualify as one of their in-house projects, at least in theory. That said, they haven't demonstrated much interest in the game in recent years--hence the thread title, I suppose.

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Post #: 18
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/26/2021 3:09:11 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
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Status: offline 		We'd very much like to do more with it, but the road on this project has been unusually bumpy. I hope we'll be able to do more in the future, it's not a game we'd like to see retired.

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Post #: 19
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/27/2021 2:34:37 AM   
Rosseau

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We'd very much like to do more with it, but the road on this project has been unusually bumpy. I hope we'll be able to do more in the future, it's not a game we'd like to see retired.


Very much agreed on that. If it was only about money, I think the community would come forward to support a renewed project. But it seems like extraordinary skills are required for this one.

Best wishes to all.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 20
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/28/2021 4:18:57 PM   
pz501


Posts: 180
Joined: 10/1/2003
From: Southern Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I wonder what ever became of Norm Koger? Last I knew some years back he was doing the Distant Guns/Jutland series with I think Jim Rose, but that's a pretty much dead issue now, that didn't end well.

He seems to have disappeared (maybe moved on and got out of entertainment programing?) but I hope he's still with us and doing OK.

As far as TOAW itself is concerned, while some have given a really huge and valiant effort to keep it going, I'll bet the source code is pretty convoluted after all these years. It might be better to start with a clean sheet of paper and design a brand new product that retains the spirit and concept of TOAW.

Something like this with more development and encouragement might work, but then I'm no expert: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1466610/Combined_Arms_Operations_Series/

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/28/2021 7:58:54 PM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		It's 9pm UK; I have drunk half a bottle of wine; and as I read this sitting on the sofa I realize I am using my TOAW 4 manual as a mouse mat.

Is this a good sign ?

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Post #: 22
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/28/2021 8:46:19 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: altipueri

It's 9pm UK; I have drunk half a bottle of wine; and as I read this sitting on the sofa I realize I am using my TOAW 4 manual as a mouse mat.

Is this a good sign ?


It means stop spending so much on wine and get a lap desk that will accommodate a real mouse pad instead.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/29/2021 2:12:59 AM   
Karri

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

We'd very much like to do more with it, but the road on this project has been unusually bumpy. I hope we'll be able to do more in the future, it's not a game we'd like to see retired.


I tried getting back to it, as it is one of my favourites, but it's just too aged. What are the chances of OPART V? It needs considerable interface updates/redsign. Not to mention that if somesort of industry model (copy from WitE 2 please) is added that would really take it to the next level.

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/29/2021 3:37:29 AM   
Bamilus


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Status: offline 		It's dead and time to move on. It had a good run.

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RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/29/2021 4:53:18 PM   
76mm


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus
It's dead and time to move on. It had a good run.

The problem is--move on to what? Nothing else quite like it out there.

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Post #: 26
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/29/2021 6:14:33 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
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From: Third rock from the Sun.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: 76mm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bamilus
It's dead and time to move on. It had a good run.

The problem is--move on to what? Nothing else quite like it out there.


Ditto. Would be a bloody shame to lose it.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

(in reply to 76mm)
Post #: 27
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/30/2021 4:38:10 PM   
Bamilus


Posts: 973
Joined: 4/30/2010
From: The Old Northwest
Status: offline 		It's basically a digital board-game. Just move onto board games. Losing the editor sucks, though, I agree. But a lot of the scenarios are based off of board games, anyways.

I mainly play board wargames now and it's great.

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Post #: 28
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/30/2021 11:50:19 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 536
Joined: 8/17/2011
Status: offline 		I don't remember TOAW'4 has solid naval game, so uncheck naval game. I remember "Fire in the East" or Directive'21 as most popular scenarios recently. GG War in The East&West has those somehow covered anything about WW'2. I remember playing Brusilov Offensive whether it was in TOAW'3 or 4. Anyway TOAW series as mainly a WW'2 game at most in recent. I don't know the quality of these scenarios whether it needs news designers or about engine bugs, for a new player it was a mess honestly. "Hades" as rogue-like game hit the nail about clear design something more dynamic about history telling wargaming needs.

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Post #: 29
RE: Is There A Future For TOAW? - 10/31/2021 12:13:01 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		TOAW is really much more than a digital board game. I love board games and board wargames, but I don't see them as able to replace computer wargames, or vice versa.

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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