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Stepping away... - 10/20/2021 11:29:41 PM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline 		Stepping away and putting game up.

After spending an excessive amount of time researching, collecting data, screen-shots and supporting references, there is simply way too much push-back from Denniss to address... anything really.

When it gets to a point where I can predict with 100% certainty the pushback response, it is time to step away.

Maybe in a couple of months it will be worth playing...

Good luck guys!
Post #: 1
RE: Stepping away... - 10/20/2021 11:39:15 PM   
kahta

 

Posts: 287
Joined: 9/21/2019
From: Arkansas
Status: offline 		I've always enjoyed reading the discussions and learned new things. Please come back soon.

_____________________________

1942 Alt History: Endsieg

(in reply to DeletedUser44)
Post #: 2
RE: Stepping away... - 10/20/2021 11:58:40 PM   
Teo41_ITA

 

Posts: 151
Joined: 9/2/2021
Status: offline 		Shame... right a few days away from me bringing WiTE2 on my YT channel! Hope you will come back soon Sauron!

(in reply to kahta)
Post #: 3
RE: Stepping away... - 10/21/2021 12:21:19 AM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline 		:(.....


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Post #: 4
RE: Stepping away... - 10/21/2021 1:15:53 AM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Sometimes you just have to push harder and not give up.

Of course my wife calls me stubborn.


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Beta Tester for:
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Post #: 5
RE: Stepping away... - 10/21/2021 1:36:06 AM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		I agree with Zovs and my ex-wives called me worse than stubborn.

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 6
RE: Stepping away... - 10/21/2021 2:43:18 AM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Tbh the latest patch was an improvement I feel for now - combat wise the panzer divisions do something - even if I feel the change is illusory.

I myself can get frustrated from the game and I got back to some matches now that the patch seems to address some of the issues and there are still persisting issues that may be addressed (or issues that I perceive but that are not felt so by the designer team).

Nonetheless it is a game and meant to be enjoyable and netting you fun. At times a break is needed and healthy too.

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 7
RE: Stepping away... - 10/21/2021 8:54:54 AM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I really wouldn't drop the game for a few dozen Bf-109 F4 that were not produced, or couple of tons of freight that were not dropped by the Ju-52 squadrons... the game is so vast, so I rather play it than keep stumbling upon multitudes of not-so-historical details that mostly have some reason to be left as they are.

I find myself to be a person who loses interest to any game that I delve too deep upon... so I've stopped digging into too much detail. At least to some extent :)


Hope you could take a chance to enjoy the game better while taking a step back from the forums!


PS. One thing to note is that WitE2 is being developed and maintained by a very small team with limited resources. Pushing for changes and improvements to happen requires quite a bit of patience.

< Message edited by Nix77 -- 10/21/2021 9:08:12 AM >

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 8
RE: Stepping away... - 10/21/2021 1:36:49 PM   
Joch1955

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 9/5/2020
Status: offline 		Bit early to be giving up. From past experience, WITP, WITE 1 and WITW were being tweaked and fixed years after their release.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 9
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 1:13:51 PM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline 		This is not my first encounter with Denniss. We have some history.

Currently, production model is flawed, air combat is wacked, ground combat is from an alternate time-line.

OOB data is skewed, much to the detriment of one side, while the other side has equipment that does not even exist yet.

Trying to address any of this is met with ridiculous responses that fixing would be favoring one side over the other. ??? Really?

There is a concept called 'disparate impact', which is appropriate here. Basically means that applying certain rules, equally, should result in equal treatment, but on inspection, it does not.

Prime example is arbitrarily withholding Luftwaffe single engine fighter production for the full month of 8-1941, setting up the Luftwaffe to get bled white, all during a critical phase of Barbarossa.

This is due to:

* the '1 month production delay rule' (completely a Matrix construct with no historical basis)
* no provisions to allow simultaneous production of both F2s and F4s. (which is bizarre)
* delayed production dates of the F4 to 8-1941 (from the historical 5-1941 to 5-1942). (this is due to broken WiTE2 production model that will not allow F4s to begin until all F2 production was completed, even when some production was at completely different factory locations) (it was easier to skew the data - to the detriment of the Luftwaffe - than to get the coding correct)
* and then, forcing the Luftwaffe to endure 1 month delay in 8-1941 when finally transitioning to F4s. (which already took place back in 5-1941, *if* any delay happened at all)

This results in 100% of Luftwaffe single engine fighter production being unavailable to be deployed for a full month.

(do you think this is unique to the F2 -> F4 transition?) (well it is not)

Regarding 'disparate impact', the WiTE2's '1-month production transition rule' unfairly penalizes the side that has relative low production inventories and few production types being produced. (i.e. Germany)

In contrast, the VVS has numerous single engine fighter types being produced, as a result, they will never have 100% of their single-engine fighters piling up and non-deployable for 1-month stretches. The '1 month production delay rule' barely impacts the VVS, with huge stockpiles of various AC equipment types. They could probably miss several months without even noticing....

So, you have the '1 month production delay rule', equally applied, but with very unequal impact = 'disparate impact'.

The real solution is to fix the WiTE2 production model. But I think we can all agree that will never happen.

But to repeatedly ignore with the assertion - fixing would be preferential to one side over the other? Duh? The side that is unfairly suffering to begin with?

And to be clear, if this was going on with the VVS, I would be advocating it was not only ahistorical, but unilaterally unfair as well.

-----

I do suggest to continue to question and check the underlying equipment and OOB data. Press for more details on how these 'undocumented' data items are calculated (i.e. AC Combat Range / AC Radius / Max load). Also press for OPS rate calculations. At what point am I, inadvertently, subjecting my AC to excess OPS losses? (should this not be documented?)

As I have said before, the game should not be a huge 'trial-and-error' labyrinth, resulting in hours and hours of player frustration.

Good luck.

< Message edited by Sauron_II -- 10/22/2021 1:24:21 PM >

(in reply to Joch1955)
Post #: 10
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 1:22:01 PM   
actrade

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		Please, please stop with the drama posts. If you want to go, go. If you want to stay, stay.

(in reply to DeletedUser44)
Post #: 11
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 1:40:59 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

This is not my first encounter with Denniss. We have some history.


Definitely not too long history, since you've registered only in May'21?

OOB and production changes are actually quite trivial to change editor, nothing to lose temper over? I understand your points on the Ju-52 and Bf-109F4 issues, and would like to see them addressed in some way.

Air Combat and ground combat changes on the other hand are more complicated and take quite some time to balance out.

So, judicious use of the editor and a hefty load of patience is what keeps at least me interested in this game :)

(in reply to DeletedUser44)
Post #: 12
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 3:39:36 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Back in WITE1 I caused a bit of a fuss over the number of MG's in a German Infantry Division, and Denniss explained the reason why the rear area MGs were not represented. He was very polite and his logic sound. This is a similar issue. It is not worth falling on your sword over. If you disagree use the editor. Remember, it is your game and you should play it the way you want.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 13
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 3:51:06 PM   
erikbengtsson


Posts: 126
Joined: 3/29/2020
Status: offline 		The Luftwaffe being "bled white" of 109's in late summer, early fall of 1941? How on earth can that possibly happen?

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 14
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 4:02:25 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		@Gibson : I do not know if it is Sauron's case there but some of us would like to play PvP and in general that happens on the official version, unless over time there is a Mod that affirms itself as the way to go for PvP matches (It's the case in some games for all I know).

But in general it is rarely the answer 'Edit in your own game'.
It will make your experiences your own and not too able to share them in a community that plays 'another game' so to say.

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 15
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 5:13:07 PM   
Aurelian

 

Posts: 3916
Joined: 2/26/2007
Status: offline 		Question: Is the production output shared among the various theaters? Those losses have to be made good from somewhere.

Can't really speak of the Luftwaffe, but Hitler held back new tank and engine production for new divisions instead of sending replacements east....

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If the Earth was flat, cats would of knocked everything off of it long ago.

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Post #: 16
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 5:39:33 PM   
Joch1955

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 9/5/2020
Status: offline 		well before making assumptions that the game is "broken" (tm), we have to get the facts. F4 production did officially start in may 41, but they only trickled into the theater. F2 production officially continued until august 41 and they were the most numerous type of F models until dec. 41. At the end of sept. 41, 75%+ of F models were F2 and it was still over 50% at the end of december.

On the ground, having a F2 rather than a F4 should not make any differences. Yes, the F4 was better performing on paper, but the VVS in 41 was mostly flying obsolete ACs, like the I-16 which were no match for the F2.

If there actually is an issue which can be documented, I'm sure the Devs will get around to fixing it. However,to me this is a very minor issue which has no impact on the game

(in reply to Aurelian)
Post #: 17
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 6:02:20 PM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: erikbengtsson

The Luftwaffe being "bled white" of 109's in late summer, early fall of 1941? How on earth can that possibly happen?


The air war is still being looked into, and if you mean bleeding dry the Luftwaffe in human control, that's absolutely possible, depending on how you use them. With AI control, first turn losses are 500ish German aircraft iirc, and that's still a sustainable number. With some tweaking and human intervention, the losses can fall well below 100. Do that tweaking every turn and you won't be "bleeding white".

(in reply to erikbengtsson)
Post #: 18
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 6:27:57 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		If you rely on AI assist to handle the LW during your campaign expect to lose most of your airframes. If you handle the LW with care it will be make a lot of virtual widows and scrap metal of the VVS. Many players are ending turn one now with over 4000 kills for less than a 100 airframes. The OPS losses are still high but not what they were. If you do not over extend the OPS drop significantly. The flak losses are an issue but reality dictates if I fly 100 planes over a hex with 3-5 AA battalions I deserve what happens. The changes made by the DEV team are making a difference but we need to adapt. We are smarter than the AI.

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 19
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 7:00:09 PM   
malyhin1517


Posts: 1426
Joined: 9/20/2015
From: Ukraine Dnepropetrovsk
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

Stepping away and putting game up.

After spending an excessive amount of time researching, collecting data, screen-shots and supporting references, there is simply way too much push-back from Denniss to address... anything really.

When it gets to a point where I can predict with 100% certainty the pushback response, it is time to step away.

Maybe in a couple of months it will be worth playing...

Good luck guys!

It reminds me of the famous phrase of Boris Yeltsin when he decided to leave the post of President of Russia! :)
On December 31, 1999, President Boris Yeltsin transferred his powers to Vladimir Putin. Dear Russians, the fateful decision was remembered by one phrase: “I'm tired. I'm leaving".


_____________________________

Sorry, i use an online translator :(

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Post #: 20
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 7:03:05 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

If you rely on AI assist to handle the LW during your campaign expect to lose most of your airframes. If you handle the LW with care it will be make a lot of virtual widows and scrap metal of the VVS. Many players are ending turn one now with over 4000 kills for less than a 100 airframes. The OPS losses are still high but not what they were. If you do not over extend the OPS drop significantly. The flak losses are an issue but reality dictates if I fly 100 planes over a hex with 3-5 AA battalions I deserve what happens. The changes made by the DEV team are making a difference but we need to adapt. We are smarter than the AI.


Using the Air AI will 100% bleed the Germans Dry in the air. I am sure there are others that are good at it but I will rely on my own limited skills to create my own damage to my German Air force. But this is how I feel when I use the German AIR AI.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 10/22/2021 7:04:47 PM >

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 21
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 7:14:09 PM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 452
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline 		"Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in."

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Post #: 22
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 7:14:55 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

"Just when I thought I was out, they pulled me back in."


Hahahahahaha

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Post #: 23
RE: Stepping away... - 10/22/2021 7:16:11 PM   
HardLuckYetAgain


Posts: 6987
Joined: 2/5/2016
Status: offline 		Sean Bean to the rescue!




Attachment (1)

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RE: Stepping away... - 10/23/2021 6:00:30 AM   
metaphore

 

Posts: 238
Joined: 9/4/2021
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joch1955

well before making assumptions that the game is "broken" (tm), we have to get the facts. F4 production did officially start in may 41, but they only trickled into the theater. F2 production officially continued until august 41 and they were the most numerous type of F models until dec. 41. At the end of sept. 41, 75%+ of F models were F2 and it was still over 50% at the end of december.

On the ground, having a F2 rather than a F4 should not make any differences. Yes, the F4 was better performing on paper, but the VVS in 41 was mostly flying obsolete ACs, like the I-16 which were no match for the F2.

If there actually is an issue which can be documented, I'm sure the Devs will get around to fixing it. However,to me this is a very minor issue which has no impact on the game

We have to get the facts straight, yes. Then you also need to read again what it was all about concerning F2-F4 production and not to divert Sauron's point which wasn't complaining about having an inferior fighter model.

His point was all about game mechanics and sloppy coding, not fighter quality, and his frustration came from another dodgy answer used to divert the blame into supposed game balance effect: "we won't fix it because it would give an advantage to this side blah blah blah" or, in this case, "the rules are the same for both players so it's not broken"... which is a moot excuse when consequences for each side are not the same.

< Message edited by metaphore -- 10/23/2021 6:15:03 AM >

(in reply to Joch1955)
Post #: 25
RE: Stepping away... - 10/23/2021 7:32:29 AM   
Nix77

 

Posts: 561
Joined: 10/2/2016
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I have enjoyed the fruits of Gary's "sloppy coding" for almost 30 years now :P

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Post #: 26
RE: Stepping away... - 10/23/2021 7:50:38 AM   
Thogode


Posts: 8
Joined: 8/8/2011
From: North Germany
Status: offline 		Same with me.

The core of this discussion is: Is this a game or a historical simulation?

(in reply to Nix77)
Post #: 27
RE: Stepping away... - 10/23/2021 8:35:20 AM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		I have played a lot of tactical stuff: CMx1, CMx2, TCM/SOW and some larger operational stuff: AJE (Roman), AGEOD ACW 1&2, all PG's WWII ops. I must say the GG games are very ambitious and comprehensive (WITW/WITE2). The manuals say they are sandbox games, but I consider them to be constrained explorations. In the sense that so much is immutable, but yet their is enough variability to make them both educational and say "what if".

At the beginning of the year, I was experimenting with HOI4, but it was a comic strip ... using only the language and imagery of the period, but the music was perhaps best attempt to capture the period.

These games are well done, and the only series which rivals it greatly is Panther Games which is real time, delays, and intelligent agents of military command ... but it cannot handle this scope.

They strike a good balance between interactive appreciation/education and simply books/courses. I bought WITE2 (then WITW) initially just on the basis of the manual. I didn't think I would like turns, but I found out the game was a very clever hybrid that hides what is distasteful about chess: many things occur out of step and create a pseudo simultaneous experience.

After playing WITE2 for a while and coming here, it was clear that the game is in need of some balancing. But from what I can see reading the WITW and WITE2 docs; it is getting done. I think it is fine to say I will be back later when they are done. I also think it is fine to be part of the process that helps them find the right balance.

It is possible to say: I bought it and I want it PERFECT NOW. But given complexity of the product and way beta programs actually work. That is not totally reasonable. If you feel passionately, then stick around and post so that they can tune. If you don't want to touch something yet 100% complete ... don't stress; come back when it is done.

There is no need to get emotional. I see no other way than releasing it to passionate players to go from solid foundation to a cathedral. Myself, I am playing WITW and waiting, but happy others are helping to make this a great game.

So. Thank you to those who stay and post; and, of course, the developers/betas.

_____________________________

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Post #: 28
RE: Stepping away... - 10/23/2021 2:33:10 PM   
Joch1955

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 9/5/2020
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: metaphore
His point was all about game mechanics and sloppy coding, not fighter quality, and his frustration came from another dodgy answer used to divert the blame into supposed game balance effect: "we won't fix it because it would give an advantage to this side blah blah blah" or, in this case, "the rules are the same for both players so it's not broken"... which is a moot excuse when consequences for each side are not the same.


Well I don’t see that at all, “sloppy coding” is a bit harsh. As Denniss pointed out, F4 production in July was just starting up. The F2 was still the main production model and around 250 were produced after Barbarossa began. All we are talking about is including F4s in some units in June and maybe tweaking the reinforcement schedule.

The WitX series are very complex and track every AC, AFV, Artillery piece, etc. in the theater. There are bound to be errors/guesstimates in the OOB. WW2 was a very well documented war, but often when you try to track down details, you find the info is not there. IMHO however, the Devs are committed to this series and will eventually fix any errors pointed out to them.

As I said, this is a tempest in a tea cup and nothing to get worked up about. As it is, the F2 wipes the floor with the VVS. I have been checking the Air Combat results for June-July and whenever VVS fighters run into 109s, even the E model, they suffer massive losses. This is even the case with the MIG-3 which was arguably the best Russian fighter in 41 and on paper roughly equal to the 109. This is because the LW skill level is much higher than the VVS one. Having more F4s would not change the results.


< Message edited by Joch1955 -- 10/23/2021 2:38:29 PM >

(in reply to metaphore)
Post #: 29
RE: Stepping away... - 10/23/2021 3:01:31 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Joch1955 I agree 100%.

(in reply to Joch1955)
Post #: 30
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