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NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 12:23:13 AM   
Duck Doc


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Does anybody know of a strategic level game, board or computer, covering a hot war in Europe (including Germany, of course) between NATO and the Warsaw Pact before the breakup of the Soviet Union? The smallest unit size would probably be at a 'corps' level. I am aware of the John Tiller Modern Campaign series and I am thinking about a higher level. Thanks,
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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 12:48:59 AM   
IslandInland


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Status: offline 		If the smallest unit size is corps then there aren't going to be many NATO units. If I remember correctly CENTAG was quite small compared to say WW II army groups.

I used to have a game like this on the C64 back in the day. I can't remember the name.

I too would be interested in this type of game but it would have to be at least at divisional level to make playing the NATO side worthwhile.



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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 1:31:16 AM   
Aurelian

 

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https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3584/world-war-3-1976-1984

< Message edited by Aurelian -- 10/26/2021 1:34:35 AM >

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 1:38:50 AM   
Duck Doc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

World War Three by SPI.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3584/world-war-3-1976-1984


Ah, that's more like it. I remember now. Thanks. Very helpful. A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

< Message edited by Duck Doc -- 10/26/2021 1:39:55 AM >

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 2:04:16 AM   
bayonetbrant

 

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Status: offline 		Div-level units, but it's the closest you'll get to a current in-print design for Cold-War-goes-hot-in-the-80s
https://www.compassgames.com/product/nato-designer-signature-edition/

Doomsday Project series (also from Compass) is brigade-level counters, so even further down from what you were looking for


Operation Unthinkable is corps-level units but takes place immediately after WW2
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/225265/operation-unthinkable-churchills-world-war-iii


NATO: Operational Combat in Europe is also div-level counters
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/180480/nato-operational-combat-europe-1970s

as was Brezhnev's War
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3774614/brezhnevs-war-nato-vs-warsaw-pact-germany-1980


Most of the games out there are going to be at Div level rather than Corps level, b/c otherwise all those minor NATO powers don't get to really 'play' at all as they'd be rolled into someone else's corps

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 2:58:23 AM   
Duck Doc


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Status: offline 		Bayonetbrant, great stuff. Thanks. I understand about the corps level issue. I just meant to indicate one step up from local, operational game scales,


< Message edited by Duck Doc -- 10/26/2021 2:59:23 AM >

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 3:45:43 AM   
James Taylor

 

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Status: offline 		you said board game. Hunt for Red October with Red Storm Rising.

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 3:59:45 AM   
IslandInland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

you said board game. Hunt for Red October with Red Storm Rising.


He said board or computer game. Read the post.


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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 4:33:59 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

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Status: offline 		It's Division Level rather than Corps level, but I did a Red Thunder scenario for TOAW years ago which has since been updated, based on Norm Koger's original Red Lightning game.

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 4:56:17 AM   
IslandInland


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

It's Division Level rather than Corps level, but I did a Red Thunder scenario for TOAW years ago which has since been updated, based on Norm Koger's original Red Lightning game.


Yes, of course TOAW is the game for this request. It's a shame the people from the TOAW forum don't hang around here as that is the game in 2021 that would be the answer to your question.

https://www.matrixgames.com/game/the-operational-art-of-war-iv


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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 3:25:12 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

you said board game. Hunt for Red October with Red Storm Rising.


He said board or computer game. Read the post.



Both are computer games. But neither is strategic level as you command one sub.

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 3:27:30 PM   
Duck Doc


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Status: offline 		Thanks, Eric. The missing piece. I remember it now. It was a great scenario and I remember playing it some.

I never played Red Storm Rising or even SPI's WW3 game either (I had moved away from SPI at that point).

I have been playing WarPlan and also watching some YouTube videos about Combat Mission Cold War and was musing that a WW3 NATO/ WP conflict in Europe would be so great on a WarPlan scale and would even fit perfectly into that engine. I was wracking my moth-eaten brain trying to remember if there were any games past about a WW3 conflict on a strategic scale. I played John Tiller's Modern Campaigns a whole bunch and enjoyed them a great deal. Three games covered the entire Northern European conflict zone but were exclusively operational in scope.

A WarPlan game engine treatment would be perfect including the main course in Germany but also Southern Europe and the Med and the North Atlantic Reforger theater as well. Perfect! But, alas.



< Message edited by Duck Doc -- 10/26/2021 3:41:25 PM >

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 3:27:42 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bayonetbrant

Div-level units, but it's the closest you'll get to a current in-print design for Cold-War-goes-hot-in-the-80s
https://www.compassgames.com/product/nato-designer-signature-edition/

Doomsday Project series (also from Compass) is brigade-level counters, so even further down from what you were looking for


Operation Unthinkable is corps-level units but takes place immediately after WW2
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/225265/operation-unthinkable-churchills-world-war-iii


NATO: Operational Combat in Europe is also div-level counters
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/180480/nato-operational-combat-europe-1970s

as was Brezhnev's War
https://boardgamegeek.com/image/3774614/brezhnevs-war-nato-vs-warsaw-pact-germany-1980


Most of the games out there are going to be at Div level rather than Corps level, b/c otherwise all those minor NATO powers don't get to really 'play' at all as they'd be rolled into someone else's corps


Don't forget Danube Front 85 :) https://johntillersoftware.com/ModernCampaigns/DanubeFront85.html

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 4:50:59 PM   
RFalvo69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

you said board game. Hunt for Red October with Red Storm Rising.


He said board or computer game. Read the post.



Both are computer games. But neither is strategic level as you command one sub.


Red Storm Rising the board game is WWIII in Europe while The Hunt for Red October visit the naval war. Both can be played stand alone or combined in a single, integrated game. They were meant to be “light” games with the whole war playable in a week end or less.

The Third World War by Frank Chadwick is one of the masterpieces of my life. I have all the four games (there were rumbles of a fifth one set in Korea but it never materialized) and back in the day I played Battle for Germany” more times than I can remember. I think that I’ll buy the new edition by Compass Games.

< Message edited by RFalvo69 -- 10/26/2021 4:52:45 PM >

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/26/2021 6:57:30 PM   
Aurelian

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RFalvo69

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian


quote:

ORIGINAL: IslandInland


quote:

ORIGINAL: James Taylor

you said board game. Hunt for Red October with Red Storm Rising.


He said board or computer game. Read the post.



Both are computer games. But neither is strategic level as you command one sub.


Red Storm Rising the board game is WWIII in Europe while The Hunt for Red October visit the naval war. Both can be played stand alone or combined in a single, integrated game. They were meant to be “light” games with the whole war playable in a week end or less.

The Third World War by Frank Chadwick is one of the masterpieces of my life. I have all the four games (there were rumbles of a fifth one set in Korea but it never materialized) and back in the day I played Battle for Germany” more times than I can remember. I think that I’ll buy the new edition by Compass Games.


I know. I've seen them, but never played the board games, the two I mentioned use the same title, but are different.

Now Third World War, played that one. Enjoyed that one, but never bought it. It's on Vassal though

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/27/2021 3:30:44 AM   
bayonetbrant

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aurelian

Both are computer games.


Both are also board games.

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2903/hunt-red-october
https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3707/red-storm-rising

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/27/2021 4:00:10 AM   
Eambar


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Status: offline 		The Central Front series published by SPI are great boardgames with beautiful maps at 1:250,000 scale. Each of the games - Donau Front, North German Plain, BAOR, Fifth Corps, and Hof Gap can be played individually or the maps can be joined together for a monster campaign.

I have them all but have never played the combined campaign.

Probably not the scale you are looking for either, as some NATO units are represented down to companies (although majority are battalion size).

https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgamefamily/4255/series-central-front-spi

Cheers

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Post #: 17
RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/27/2021 11:04:11 AM   
RichG

 

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Status: offline 		Another SPI boardgame featuring NATO against WP / Soviet forces at roughly division scale but in a slightly more imagined scenario was Objective Moscow :
objective-moscow-death-soviet-communism

We played this through a couple of times when I was first getting into wargaming and was lots of fun.

There is also the counterpart game Invasion America which is even more imagined:
Invasion America

Again very enjoyable.

Both these games could be played to finish in a long afternoon unlike some of the mammoth other games which we would start but never conclude.

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/27/2021 12:38:16 PM   
bayonetbrant

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Eambar

Probably not the scale you are looking for either, as some NATO units are represented down to companies (although majority are battalion size).



That's why I didn't recommend them above. They're at leas 1 echelon (and likely 2) below where the OP was describing the level of interest

It's a great series
We published some articles about it

https://www.armchairdragoons.com/articles/reviews/an-active-defense-of-fifth-corps-the-soviet-breakthrough-at-fulda-central-front-series-volume-1/

https://www.armchairdragoons.com/articles/winning-with-the-warsaw-pact-a-central-front-series-analysis/

but it's not what the OP described as being sought after

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/27/2021 10:18:03 PM   
Raptor341

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duck Doc

Thanks, Eric. The missing piece. I remember it now. It was a great scenario and I remember playing it some.

I never played Red Storm Rising or even SPI's WW3 game either (I had moved away from SPI at that point).

I have been playing WarPlan and also watching some YouTube videos about Combat Mission Cold War and was musing that a WW3 NATO/ WP conflict in Europe would be so great on a WarPlan scale and would even fit perfectly into that engine. I was wracking my moth-eaten brain trying to remember if there were any games past about a WW3 conflict on a strategic scale. I played John Tiller's Modern Campaigns a whole bunch and enjoyed them a great deal. Three games covered the entire Northern European conflict zone but were exclusively operational in scope.

A WarPlan game engine treatment would be perfect including the main course in Germany but also Southern Europe and the Med and the North Atlantic Reforger theater as well. Perfect! But, alas.




Agree with you here - a WarPlan or Strategic Command style title would be most interesting.

On that note, does anyone have any Cold War Gone Hot scenarios for TOAW 4 that they would recommend? I have the title but never played it thus far. As well, WW III by SPI, while being much before my time, does look interesting to play. I might have a find a copy of that somewhere

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RE: NATO vs Warsaw Pact Strategic Level Game - 10/29/2021 8:17:28 PM   
MikeBrough


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Status: offline 		Norm Koger's Red Lightning was one of my favourites back in the late 80s/early 90s. I remember taking my new wife down to London on an early second honeymoon and stopping off at the Virgin Megastore to pick this up.

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