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Last Stand on Luzon

 
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Last Stand on Luzon - 10/28/2021 3:28:40 PM   
Q-Ball


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Question: When you are playing with stacking limits, where do you do the "Last Stand" on Luzon?

Without stacking limits, Clark/Bataan is an easy choice due to terrain and invulnerability to shore bombardment. With stacking limits, though, putting all the Luzon forces there will deplete supplies, which is a huge problem.

One method is to stack all the best combat formations at Clark up to the limit, move everyone else to Bataan, and let Manila fall. Once Clark falls and those forces fall back to an overstacked Bataan, it will end quickly though.

But with stacking limits, does Manila make more sense?

The entire Luzon Force can fit in Manila.

The downside is that it's x2 rather than x3 terrain, and once Bataan falls and the CD guns are cleared, it can be bombarded by the IJN

Thoughts?

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 10/28/2021 3:29:31 PM >


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RE: Last Stand on Luzon - 10/28/2021 6:03:04 PM   
Yaab


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Take the following with the grain of salt, since I always restart, I was not able to test my tactics.

(EDIT: Since I house-rule myself and cannot use non-US supply to boost US units on Luzon, I tend to ship resources to Manila to produce supplies in Manila as long as I can. If you play normally, you can ship lots of supplies to Luzon making the defence of Manila easier, since now you have supplies to flesh out PI units defending Manila)


In my games against Jap AI, the Japs arrive in Manila on 7 January 1942.

I put my best LCUs in Bataan, including the two tank battalions. You need to check the reinforcemnt queue and see which units arrive in Bataan, and do the math, how to put them together. The Command HQ also goes to Bataan to attract supplies. Manila is defended by Phillipines units, because it is adjacent to Bataan and, since both locations have ports, they can share supplies by abstracted small ships as per manual. I defend Manil because I need its LI to produce supplies as long as possible. To produce supplies there you need to ships as many resources as you can ASAP, best by 8130 capacity xAK from Kolaka (sp?) on Celebes. You need also to defend Atimoan (S of Manila) which has most Res centers on Luzon after Manila. You cna probably bring extra 10,000 resources to Manila this way.

Sequence of events
Japs take Clark Field. Units from Calrk Field retreat to Manila. Manila falls, troops from Manila will not retreat to Bataan because Calrk Field is in Japs hands, they should retreat south or die in Manila. Manila is in Japanese hand, however Bataan still controls the Manila Bay access.

My notes:

Bataan can only hold 32,000 supplies without spoilage, Manila can hold 197,000 supplies without spoilage

You start with around 60,000 supplies on Luzon (scen001).

Some units are already prepped for Bataan, and there are several new units that arrive in Bataan in the next 20 to 40 days.
You have two corps HQs and the commnad HQ to boost AV

Bataan CD unit (Fort Drum ) has 42 x 3inch AA guns - guns ceiling is 27,000 feet!

Do not take any repalcmenst in Bataan,especially in the Fort Drum unit!!! It will add not only PI infantry squads, but also support squads. You will overstack the Bataan hex in the end.


Batan composition (troop load coast)
18,000 troop capacity already taken at start (Bataan can have max 45,000 troop capacity before overstacking) of which 10,000 capacity is taken by CD Fort Drum unit.

Unit moving to Bataan:
2 x 50 tanks (2800 troop load cost) = 20,800
2 x regt battalions (total 1600) 22,400
command HQ(for supplies) (4320 cost) 26,750
two regt prepped for Bataan 3400 and 2500 = 34,750
+803rd eng Unit from Clark (for fort building) 800 = 35,400
+AA Clark Field unit(we will not have fighter cover so we need AA guns) 1000 =36,400
+north Luzon Corps (prepped 52 for Bataan) = 360 total 37,000

+reinforcemnt arrivals in Bataan (total arrivals 7 unit, with stacking cost of 10,560) = total 47,500 (among arrivals Prov Arty unit with M3 halftracks ---great anti-soft value!)
of course there will be losses due to fighting, so we are OK

We just need to remember to evac the units from Clark Field to Manila in COMBAT mode before Japs come to Clark, because once Clark Field falls the code will retreat the units into Bataan which you don't want.

Supply cost: (Bataan base gathers x 3, max supply limit 32,000 before spoilage, command HQ attracts 20k supplies, so max additional 12,000 supplies in units, total by unit 4000 x 3=12,000)
Supply need:
units already in Bataan: 1100 supplies
two tank units: 200
two REGT battalions: 150
command HQ: 300
two prepped REGTs: 500
ENG+AA units: 200
NorthLuzon HQ; 30
Total: 2500

Arrivals: 7 units, counted manually in Ground Reinforcemnt queue = total 500 supplies

Total: 3000 need x 3 base gathering = 9000 supplies
HQ has 20k at all times, this is added to the 9000 supplies what base holds

Total:29,000 supplies (under the 32,000 supply spoilage limit)

The supply use will shoot up during fighting, but you will not be able to attract any supplies once Manila falls other than by supply runs by subs, thus you will be under supply spoilage limit still.

Basically , you should have your best units (2 x tanks, GMC halftracks, lots of AA, Marines) in Bataan under the supply spoilage limit and under the troop capacity overstacking limit. Good luck!


< Message edited by Yaab -- 10/28/2021 6:46:21 PM >

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RE: Last Stand on Luzon - 10/28/2021 11:45:44 PM   
ggeilman

 

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Playing my first game against the AI. It is March 17th. Bataan has been eating rats for over a month and is down to 357 AV, but 31,000 are still holding out for a few more turns. I did set it to hard. I really did not do anything special and tried to get as much supply as I could in there in December, but the surrounding areas fell early. Tarakan and Balikpapan are long gone. Jakarta just fell and Surabaya is not long for this world. Hard to supply from Darwin.

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RE: Last Stand on Luzon - 10/29/2021 11:59:10 AM   
HansBolter


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My last three dozen games has been with stacking limits. I won't play any other way.

Manila has long been my last stand choice since switching to playing with stacking limits everywhere.

The later reinforcements at Bataan usually can't make it to Manila so they make a stand of their own.

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RE: Last Stand on Luzon - 10/29/2021 3:53:35 PM   
Q-Ball


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

My last three dozen games has been with stacking limits. I won't play any other way.

Manila has long been my last stand choice since switching to playing with stacking limits everywhere.

The later reinforcements at Bataan usually can't make it to Manila so they make a stand of their own.


Interesting, I was leaning toward a split between Clark/Bataan. It's not ideal, since that limits the units that can stack in Clark on defense. But those units at Clark can be the more combat-capable ones, and does also allow some unit rotation with Bataan. Plus, IJA has to keep stacking under control as well.

But I can see the simplicity of just putting everyone in Manila

Tough call......

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RE: Last Stand on Luzon - 10/30/2021 11:54:23 AM   
HansBolter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

My last three dozen games has been with stacking limits. I won't play any other way.

Manila has long been my last stand choice since switching to playing with stacking limits everywhere.

The later reinforcements at Bataan usually can't make it to Manila so they make a stand of their own.


Interesting, I was leaning toward a split between Clark/Bataan. It's not ideal, since that limits the units that can stack in Clark on defense. But those units at Clark can be the more combat-capable ones, and does also allow some unit rotation with Bataan. Plus, IJA has to keep stacking under control as well.

But I can see the simplicity of just putting everyone in Manila

Tough call......



My rationale being that Light Urban is better than 'out in the field', but all depends on what level forts can be achieved.

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RE: Last Stand on Luzon - 10/30/2021 12:08:45 PM   
Alfred

 

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The basic benefit of base fortification (irrespective he actual level) over field fortification is that the former applies to all LCUs located in the base hex whereas the latter apply only to each individual LCU and are immediately lost should the unit be rotated out of the field hex.

Alfred

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RE: Last Stand on Luzon - 10/30/2021 12:25:40 PM   
ITAKLinus

 

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Moderate stand in Manila while I hold Clark to make IJA lose time and matériel in a couple of deliberate in Manila.

Then, everyone goes to Clark.


Rationale: you want to attrit as much as possible the IJA but you don't want to end up with your troops in Manila and a IJA stack in Clark preventing their retreat once Manila falls.


Beware, however, that the prize for the IJA is Manila and its facilities/industries. As Japan, I'm quite happy in letting the allied forces in Clark die miserably of hunger once I got Manila. I can't use the harbor, but who cares at the end? Clark and Bataan have no industries and supplies won't last long.

My persopective is fairly simple: as Japan, you run through the island and you capture what you can. If the Allied player withdraws to Clark Field without figthing, I might very well use those troops for other operations once I occupy Manila and keep a token force to control the Allied in Clark after I secured hex borders. Clark Field and Bataan hold no value for Japan, other than being allowed to move ships into Manila. This, obviously, supposes that IJAAF/IJNAF can plaster Clark Field airfield for some time so that it's rendered useless for the enemy. After some weeks of war, you should have basically no chance to send in planes and use Clark Field for some raid in the enemy's rear.

As we all know, Japan is on a very tight timetable and I'd rather keep Clark Field "under control" rather than bogging myself down in a pointless set of assaults to the position. As Japan, I want Manila and the rest of Luzon. Not CF and Bataan. Let them die of hunger.

Bottom line: CF has a better terrain and your troops can withdraw to Bataan, but it's irrelevance in the big picture makes it a weak place to pick for your last stand.


NB: it's highly recommended not to leave Bataan empty of INF units. A determined Japanese player can quite easily see that a landing in Bataan, as costly as CD guns would make it, is better than having to chase allied troops withdrawing from Clark Field. The CD unit in Bataan has 0AV and you need an odd hundred AVs to keep the base secure.
I strongly suggest leaving there some INF unit.


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RE: Last Stand on Luzon - 10/30/2021 1:15:03 PM   
ny59giants


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Like others, I only play with stacking limits. For economic reasons, I last stand in Manila with the hope to have as much industry destroyed when it falls. Once Bataan falls, I expect to see BB TFs hitting the base, but that brings the risk of industry being damaged/destroyed.

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RE: Last Stand on Luzon - 10/30/2021 8:37:37 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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Last stand at Manila as well for me - stacking limits and supply limits allow to concentrate available assets without suffering from overstacking / spoilage, its LI produces supplies as long as resources are available and it denies the Japanese the only worthwhile assets in the PI - repair yard and industries - with a good chance of their destruction when Manila finally falls. Sure, once Bataan falls the IJN may come bombarding, but then you know where to position your subs and drop mines.

Edit: Don't forget - no Malaria at Manila, unlike CF and Bataan.

< Message edited by LargeSlowTarget -- 10/30/2021 8:40:43 PM >


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