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Defending France- Possible? - 7/7/2021 10:02:59 AM   
bepisoilsnake

 

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Status: offline 		I know this game is really oriented around the Axis singer player and USSR-D-Day multiplayer experience, but I've just held Poland in SP until the first week of December when Warsaw finally fell. This made me wonder- is there any realistic defence of France against the Axis AI? Due to the aforementioned, I find plenty of guides in the forums here on an Axis conquest in as little time as possible, but no guide for any serious defence of France beyond making it as costly as possible. In my current position, I've done the basics, swapped out the armies on the Maginot for Corps and moved the BEF into Calais, but outside of that I have little hopes of holding due to the Armored Warfare and Infantry Weapons advantage the Germans have. I've yet to see one game where Belgium and the Netherlands scrape by even past the turn where war starts because of how weak they are, maybe an HQ remains on Amsterdam but that's really it.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

PS. I declined the engineer unit as France because I've never found it useful with the Germans pushing past Belgium before the first fort is even built. Was this a good move?
Post #: 1
RE: Defending France- Possible? - 7/7/2021 10:24:46 AM   
The Land

 

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Status: offline 		I believe there are some people who successfully defend France in multi-player, at least against inexperienced players. So it must be possible against the AI. Even if it doesn't completely succeed, the Germans can end up massively off-balance.

I think the key elements are:
- Buy British Anti-Air units and deploy them in France to cause problems for German air.
- Use every Allied Air asset, in conjunction with some ground counterattacks, to destroy German tanks - including all your carriers and your strategic bombers
- Send British tanks to France
- Pay careful attention to making sure your HQs are commanding units that are going to be most heavily engaged.

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 7/7/2021 11:21:16 AM   
bepisoilsnake

 

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Status: offline 		I feel kind of stupid now because that all seems quite obvious, I suppose the real difficulty is in hunting down the Panzers before they make serious breakthroughs and managing the economy of France vis-a-vis reinforcing or recruiting- a dichotomy Germany doesn't really need to be too concerned about.

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 7/7/2021 2:13:02 PM   
klschult

 

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Status: offline 		Yes, what Matrix Hero said.

Use the British AA to give your fighters a break so you can watch for opportunities, with the help of the carriers, to eliminate German Air.

Watch and prepare for counterattack opportunities to eliminate German Armies and Armor.

ASAP get Infantry Warfare; first priority, first turn, for both.

Never build brand new French units. Rebuild, then purchase previously eliminated units.

On lower game settings at least, AI will not attack garrison units in all but the northernmost Maginot space.

The key is Eban Emal. If you can hold it on the first turn use it to anchor the line. If you can't, start the turn again. Later, with more experience you can try without holding it, but it is much more difficult.

Take Denmark by first capturing the Kiel Canal and building a line on the south side from Kiel to Cuxhaven with a HQ in Flensburg. Put your two SF units there. Raid the Baltic coast. The AI will respond by using precious MPP to Operate units to defend, weakening the front. Then load the SF up, wait for the AI to Operate the units back to the front and do it again.

Learn how to hold France by giving yourself all the advantages: lowest initial settings, allow Med units to move, turn off Italy, events that lower French morale, etc. Learn how to do it, then gradually turn them back on until you can't defend France any longer.

To learn how try an alt scenario without the Russians, Americans and Italians. Set everything you can on easy and see how long it takes for the French and British to take out Germany. Realistic? No, but fun. And you learn a lot.

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 7/7/2021 10:27:49 PM   
The Land

 

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Status: offline 		So I've just been having a go at this and seem to have got it on my 2nd attempt. You need to throw the usual approach of playing the UK completely out of the window. March 1941 and the Allies are counterattacking in northern Belgium, France has retreated in the Vosges a bit. Haven't done any amphibs yet but am going to try to retake Amsterdam and take out the fighter in The Hague with the UK special forces.

The BEF ended up consisting of 2 HQs, 2 Tanks, 2 Armies, 5 Corps (including the Poles, it will be 6 with the Canadians on their way as well), a Special Forces, 4 Anti-Airs, and a garrison - as well as the air units.

Casualties on the French have been pretty grim with only 5 Corps and 2 Armies remaining (plus another 3 Corps and 1 Army holding the Italian front against a fairly determined attack by the AI).

Total German losses have been 1 HQ, 3 tanks, 5 armies, 2 paratroops, 9 Corps (one of which Italian, but lost on the German part of the front), and 3 tactical bombers. Anglo-French losses 1 Heavy Tank, 1 Tank, 9 Armies, 9 Corps, one Special Forces (though these figures include the Belgians and Dutch). German National Morale, at 92%, is lower than either France or Britain's.

Egypt held by its original Corps plus the event-units, none of them have been reinforced. The British destroyer fleet is a mess. I refused the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in a failed attempt to keep Poland in the war longer, so the potential Eastern Front is also... a mess. However, none of this is likely to matter very much for the long term future of the game!




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by The Land -- 7/7/2021 10:30:31 PM >

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 10/31/2021 4:26:18 PM   
klschult

 

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Status: offline 		Are you continuing to try this strategy? Not all that realistic, but it is a lot of fun.

From the screenshot, I'd suggest spending more French MPP on rebuilding lost units. Rebuilding corps is incredibly cheap.

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Post #: 6
RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/27/2021 11:16:02 PM   
archmache


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Status: offline 		I actually played a MP game where I lost as Germany and never took France. The way he defended it was putting AA behind every hex of the front line troops so that any air attacks by GE ended up taking massive losses. He the counter attacked with all the UK and French air (grounded them so that the AA would fire) and then attacked my Air Force on the ground. I ended up losing both tanks also in the process.

Not having air significantly stunts the GE assault. To make matters worse I tried an All France Strat and send troops to North Africa to take that before capping France to gimmick the DE, but I had to divert an HQ and the entire airfare and it ended up being a colossal disaster. France pushed all the way into Germany and USSR took Berlin by early '42.

... not my best game. So yes it is possible for France not to fall during MP. (I also lost my entire GE navy during the Jutland 2.0 on the second turn of the game)

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/29/2021 11:36:15 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Status: offline 		Your opponent has zero in England, paratroop into London. Make a Maritime Bomber a high priority, keep your planes out of range, bring in subs and cut the Allied Navy to shreds. Focus on the Royal Navy, the Brits don't have the resources to replenish the Navy for quite a while.

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/29/2021 4:20:05 PM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Your opponent has zero in England, paratroop into London. Make a Maritime Bomber a high priority, keep your planes out of range, bring in subs and cut the Allied Navy to shreds. Focus on the Royal Navy, the Brits don't have the resources to replenish the Navy for quite a while.


Not sure how much difference any of that would make. A paratroop in London may distract some British units from France, but it will probably also trigger a whole bunch of Home Guard garrisons spawning and increase US intervention. The paratroop is going to end up dying out of supply unless you manage a decent Sealion attack - and deploying it to the UK means that it is, obviously, unavailable in France where it might be of more use.

And having a German maritime bomber and using it to attack the RN is good general-purpose advice, but I don't really see how it helps you win the Battle of France in a situation where the British player has several tanks and HQs and many anti-air and Corps committed.


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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/30/2021 12:17:13 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Status: offline 		Taking London would have no impact Really!!. It would make a huge impact. Turkey jumps 45-55% & Spain jumps. How is the paratrooper going to die against a few garrisons with level 0 infantry, no way. They get supply from London

Its too late now but if the Axis had prepared correctly the Allies are left with nothing. It will take longer but the Axis will prevail. The Brits have forgone research to field the Army and the Germans are in London. Then Egypt is a piece of cake, basically GB is out of the war. Germany starts with level 1 Naval and should have lv 1 subs by this time. With Maritime & other bombers and the addition of numerous subs the Axis should be able to rip the Allied Navy to shreds.

If this strategy were attempted against a top Axis player game over.

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 12/30/2021 12:24:35 PM >

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/30/2021 12:22:57 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Status: offline 		error

< Message edited by PvtBenjamin -- 12/30/2021 12:24:02 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/31/2021 6:45:36 AM   
El_Condoro

 

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Status: offline 		Would paratroops have the range to get to London? I'm not sure what prior turns were like or whether the Germans have long range levels but it looks like they would have a hard time getting to London even with it unoccupied. How is NA going with so many UK units in France? Are the Italians doing anything?

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/31/2021 8:29:14 AM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

Taking London would have no impact Really!!. It would make a huge impact. Turkey jumps 45-55% & Spain jumps. How is the paratrooper going to die against a few garrisons with level 0 infantry, no way. They get supply from London


London will give supply 3. London's port may give supply 5, but only if it's not interdicted by a British or French naval unit (of which there are an ample quantity). Both of these will be reduced by sieging if there are 2 or more adjacent Allied units.

So the paratroop will end up with something like ~30% readiness, falling over time.

And of course this assumes that London is indeed empty, it's not too difficult for the British to put a garrison there (or have the strat there, it has plenty of range).

And the value of any diplomatic effects on Spain and Turkey will be greatly counterbalanced by the diplomatic hits on USA and Russia which, from memory, have similar triggers. Spain will be difficult to get into the war without conquering France, Turkey will be difficult to get in without conquering Russia.



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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/31/2021 8:31:11 AM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: El_Condoro

Would paratroops have the range to get to London?


Probably. In the screenshot above I think German paras could make it from the hex SW of the Hague - land SE of London then use their move to take it. (In that example though I don't think the German paras are still in the game). It's also quite likely that Germany will at some point in 1940 have more of Flanders, which is closer.


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Post #: 14
RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/31/2021 10:20:46 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Status: offline 		This is a strategy that would only work against a new player. Honestly if you are experienced it is shameful to use it against a new player. You are going to win anyway why try and embarrass them. If you try this against a skilled Axis player you are basically removing the Brits from the game.

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/31/2021 11:30:32 AM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

This is a strategy that would only work against a new player. Honestly if you are experienced it is shameful to use it against a new player. You are going to win anyway why try and embarrass them. If you try this against a skilled Axis player you are basically removing the Brits from the game.


Not sure what your basis for that statement is, or what your definition of 'skilled Axis player' is either. There are a couple of players who are so good that basically any strategy against them will not work, and if that's your definition, then it won't work. However this strategy was used effectively by at least one player in the ELO tournament.


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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/31/2021 11:51:02 AM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

I believe there are some people who successfully defend France in multi-player, at least against inexperienced players.



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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/31/2021 12:06:38 PM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin


quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

I believe there are some people who successfully defend France in multi-player, at least against inexperienced players.





Yes, though I'm far from certain that it *only* works against inexperienced players. You do seem very certain about it though.


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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/31/2021 12:10:24 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Land

However this strategy was used effectively by at least one player in the ELO tournament.




The ELO actively recruited new players. How would it work against the top quartile players?

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 12/31/2021 12:37:40 PM   
El_Condoro

 

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Status: offline 		Are the Italians doing anything or have they decided their partner is not doing so well and stayed out?

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 1/3/2022 1:38:17 PM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: El_Condoro

Are the Italians doing anything or have they decided their partner is not doing so well and stayed out?


So I've loaded up the save from this game against the AI and in March 41 there were Italians attacking Toulon and Grenoble, with 5 French units holding them off. There had been no Italian attack into North Africa at this point.

By April 1942 the Afrika Corps had taken El Alamein, the Italians had been pocketed around Nice by a French advance to Turin and Monaco, Spain was at 95% mobilisation - but the Russians had overrun East Prussia and the British had taken the Ruhr Valley.

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 1/5/2022 9:43:06 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Status: offline 		So you loaded the game at the start of the attack on France or from the point represented here where the Axis are obviously beat?

It would be interesting to try this strategy against a high level AI starting from the beginning.

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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 1/6/2022 3:53:13 PM   
The Land

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PvtBenjamin

So you loaded the game at the start of the attack on France or from the point represented here where the Axis are obviously beat?


So I had one game where I played through from Sept 39 to March 42, using this strategy. I'm saying what happened at various points of it.

If I have time I'll try it again with the AI on a harder setting!


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RE: Defending France- Possible? - 1/6/2022 4:02:51 PM   
PvtBenjamin

 

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Status: offline 		Great thanks. It would interesting to do an AAR if you have time. Again I wouldn't recommend it for a PBEM game but it might be fun vs AI.

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