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Assigning ground support question - 10/28/2021 10:55:59 PM

rocketman71

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What are the pro/con situations when to assign ground support to army group, army or corp level? Trying to get a grip on the nuances of the air game and haven't figured this out yet.

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 10/29/2021 7:33:16 AM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rocketman71

What are the pro/con situations when to assign ground support to army group, army or corp level? Trying to get a grip on the nuances of the air game and haven't figured this out yet.

as you move along that scale you are trading off certainty of focus, at army group level any combat involving a sizeable chunk of your army *could* call on that GS, at corps level only the 3-5 divisions that are in that corps can call on the GS allocation.

So first thing to think of -- how much air assets do you have? If v limited you *might* be biased towards a corps solution in that the available planes perhaps can only really support one combat.

You'll notice the heavy use of conditional tenses in this response.

Leads to the next question, how many attacks do you envisage? Typically in Italy its not that common to have more than a couple in a turn, possibly even just one set piece as the Allies try to dismantle a key position. At that stage, really doesn't matter. Even in France 44, there may well only be a couple of key attacks, the sort of thing where airpower is an important part of the force mix.

Then there is the question of being the attacker or the defender. Crudely the attacker gets more agency, they can flip the GS button on and off so they don't use up their airpower dismantling say a security regiment when the real target is a SS Pzr Division you'll attack soon. As the defender you have to make a choice and live by it - so that *might* bias you towards a more specific solution (but again we're back to the 'how much do you have' question).

I personally tend to assign high in the command chain, as the Allies almost never below army level. That gives me a bit of flexibility in an unclear situation (say France post-breakout) and is the lazy solution (& I like lazy solutions where they seem to work). A

As the Axis I tend to army group, mainly as you are almost always using GS defensively. I'll then make a choice to leave it on or off at that level. Off if I don't think its going to be a critical turn, On in Italy (the Allies control the air but they can't dominate) or France if I'm prepared to burn off more of a finite asset in what I think will be important. My logic here is that it might be hard to guess which corps will be their focal point and if the allies define a focal point, well they are going to bring air power along in any case.

The alternative model with the Axis is to sidestep GS. While GA-unit is less powerful (a different discussion point), you retain full agency. The Fw190 fighter bombers excel in this role and you can leave an allied formation in a sorry state. Useful say where the allies are at their limits of airpower range, typically this kicks in around Rome in the Italy phase and the Dutch border in 1944.

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 10/29/2021 5:09:29 PM

rocketman71

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Thank you so much for a detailed and thoughtful response. Like a mini-tutorial :)
Another benefit of assigning GS higher up in the chain of command is that you use fewer ADs that can be used for other missions instead
What is at GA-unit though?

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 10/29/2021 5:24:08 PM

cfulbright

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GA-Unit is a Ground Attack AD with Unit as the target rather than interdiction as the target. It's my preference to use in attacks, but others here feel Interdiction is better because lower air losses, though I haven't really seen that myself.

I DO like GA-interdiction AD's for amphib invasions and attacks in Italy where I can be sure that a retreating Axis unit will retreat through one or more targeted hexes, so that way they get with 1) the GA-unit before the attack, 2) GS during the attack, and 3) GA-interdiction as they retreat. The result is almost always a scatter. If you have one of the units in the attacking stack not participate in the attack, that unit can then advance into the now-empty hex. And if you have a brigade or regiment-sized multi-mode armored or infantry unit, you can then convert it to on-map and then advance yet a further hex if there's another empty one.

Cary

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 10/30/2021 9:07:16 PM

rocketman71

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Now I get it, I thought it was a GA unit, not Ground Attack on units

I have problems getting good use of GA and oftentimes take severe losses for little gain that can be quantified. I guess interdiction works, but you don't know (do you?) how well it works and if the retreat/rout damage was caused by the GA or the attack itself. Do you usually put Air Superiority AD covering the area of the GA?

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 10/30/2021 9:55:14 PM

cfulbright

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A few answers, probably in reverse order:

1. As the Allied player, I always assign air superiority over the front lines, and sometimes also assign escorts to GA missions. That tends to become less necessary if you're playing a campaign as you wear down the Luftwaffe. When you say you take heavy losses in GA missions, is that due to enemy aircraft or flak? You can look at the battle reports to see.
2. If you're taking losses due to flak, make sure you're routing your AD's around heavy flak concentrations to and from the target hex(es). Do you know how to do that? Also make sure you're flying at 21K' if there's heavy flak in the target hex.
3. If you turn on visible interdiction by hex (shift-u), you can see how much interdiction your GA-interdict AD's did, even before you start attacking during the ground phase.
4. FB's and Tac bombers like the A-36 take heavier losses in GA missions because they dive bomb and so are exposed at lower altitude. But they're also much more effective and cause much higher casualties or interdiction than the level bombers.

Cary

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 10/31/2021 4:50:37 PM

rocketman71

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1. I haven't studied it closely, but know that I often lose a lot of planes in GA withouth air superiority in areas with low flak concentration. However, units might provide AA cover so that might cause some.
2. Most of the time I use the AI to set up ADs and then tweak them, for example avoid flying over high flak concentration areas by changing the route taken. I tend to do this most for strategic bombing missions as they are usually those who pass most flak concentration. Maybe I should do this more for other directives as well.
3. I don't do this much, but should. Sometimes pay notice to the more exact number in the pop up window of the hex, but having a symbol overlay is a good reminder.
4. This is a part I struggle with. I feel that I need to know a lot about different plane types and models to get the most out of them. But that is a daunting undertaking.

Other that that, one part I have a hard time doing well and that is using AGs in the best way for the ADs I want. It is confusing that the AI plans directives with no AG attached to, so if I want to use that directive I don't exactly know how to best alter other directives to get the first one to get underway. It is easy to know how many directives each AirHQ can plan, but getting the most out of the available AGs is so much harder. Add to that having to put AGs on rest and then "un-rest" them in coming turns causes more micromanaging than I want - and I have a pretty high tolerance for that to start with ;)
Maybe I'm missing things and not used to how to best work with the available tools. Only one way to eat an elephant - one piece at a time. I'm nibbling for sure.

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 10/31/2021 8:28:18 PM

cfulbright

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Rocketman,

1. Escorts of particular AD's are more effective than an Air Superiority umbrella over an area.
2. It depends on how much manual managing you want to do. I'm probably at the extreme end of not trusting the AI to anything. Particularly if you're flying GA AD's that pass over the front lines, you may be flying over heavy flak on the way to/from your target without realizing it. In Italy I route my AD's out over the Adriatic or Tyrrhenian seas, then bring them back in from behind, if my air groups have the range.
4. FB's ALWAYS divebomb, LB's bomb from whatever altitude the AD is set to. You don't need to know about particular models of aircraft, just the broad type. Don't mix FB's and LB's in an AD if you can avoid it.

Understood on your concluding paragraph. I manually assign air groups to each AD so I don't rely on the AI to do that.

Some additional pointers:

5. Before you run the air phase, REST the air groups assigned to GS, as well as transports and low-morale air groups (I use <55 as my filter, other people use different levels)
6. After your air phase, rest ALL your air groups except for the GS air groups and if you use transports for air supply or airborne invasions.
7. Because of their large size, US FB air groups suffer more morale loss than do the CW and FF air groups. So I only plan two days of GA combat for US FB groups.

Cary

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 11/2/2021 5:42:44 PM

rocketman71

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Again, thank you for taking the time for this, much appreciated.
1. Will try that for sure.
2. I'm gradually going to try to manage things manually. As you say, flak concentration can be very high over units/stacks. I have been preoccupied with flak in urban areas.
4. Good to know not to mix LB with FB. Do I need to pay much attention to FB trained as Fighters (F)?

5-6: Great checklist. I'll implement it right away.

When I start to manually manage ADs more, is there some kind of rule of thumb on how many strike AGs and escorts to assign to an AD depending on the area (hexes)?

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 11/2/2021 6:05:27 PM

cfulbright

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4. Don't worry about the FB-F's. They don't dive with the FB's on dive-bombing.
6. I should clarify one thing here. ALSO don't rest your Air Superiority air groups if they're in AD's that fly in both Friendly and Enemy phases.

As for your question about how many escorts to assign, I don't have a "general theory" rule of thumb. Here are my observations:

A. At the beginning of any scenario the LW will be stronger, so you want to assign escorts directly to your GA AD's and even some into your GS AD's in addition to having AS AD's flying over invasion zones.
B. If you're playing either of the 1943 campaigns, over time the Axis AI will pull out or not replace in the Italian front, focusing instead on your Strategic Bombing AD's in Northern Europe, so you can 1) withdraw FB-F's for FB training which you'll appreciate both in eight weeks in the Med and also long-term in Northern Europe; 2) take escorts out of GA AD's; and 3) transfer your best FB-F air groups to Northern Europe.
C. Over the course of a scenario you should be grinding down the LW, so you'll mostly see them intercepting your SB AD's rather than your tactical efforts, particularly if you maintain size 4 AS AD's over your front lines. But every now and then they surprise you, in particular in the 1943 campaigns over your Northern Europe invasion beaches for the first few weeks after your invasion there.
D. Because I only play the excellent 143 Additional Air HQ campaign any more, for SB AD's, because my #1 air war goal is to destroy the LW as quickly as possible, I fly SB AD's over Northern Europe with a 2:1 or even 3:1 ratio of FB-F's to LB's. The AI tends to put up a number of escorts equal to the number of your bombers +/- 25%, so I am overwhelming their interceptors with escorts. That may be a little gamey to some people.

Cary

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 11/3/2021 4:26:47 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rocketman71

1. I haven't studied it closely, but know that I often lose a lot of planes in GA withouth air superiority in areas with low flak concentration. However, units might provide AA cover so that might cause some.
2. Most of the time I use the AI to set up ADs and then tweak them, for example avoid flying over high flak concentration areas by changing the route taken. I tend to do this most for strategic bombing missions as they are usually those who pass most flak concentration. Maybe I should do this more for other directives as well.
3. I don't do this much, but should. Sometimes pay notice to the more exact number in the pop up window of the hex, but having a symbol overlay is a good reminder.
4. This is a part I struggle with. I feel that I need to know a lot about different plane types and models to get the most out of them. But that is a daunting undertaking.

Other that that, one part I have a hard time doing well and that is using AGs in the best way for the ADs I want. It is confusing that the AI plans directives with no AG attached to, so if I want to use that directive I don't exactly know how to best alter other directives to get the first one to get underway. It is easy to know how many directives each AirHQ can plan, but getting the most out of the available AGs is so much harder. Add to that having to put AGs on rest and then "un-rest" them in coming turns causes more micromanaging than I want - and I have a pretty high tolerance for that to start with ;)
Maybe I'm missing things and not used to how to best work with the available tools. Only one way to eat an elephant - one piece at a time. I'm nibbling for sure.

just a few bits, its not that I disagree with Cary, more that there are a range of playstyles and solutions - its a bit like how you manipulate the tools around the logistics system

So I tend to use only a few AD per Air Command. So for the tactical air commands I tend to no more than 4, recon, GS and maybe a couple of GA. That makes it easier to manage the auto system. I might leave one GA and GS to auto and specify for the other GA (it may be something where I think there is an ideal match of plane - mission or I may want to make sure those planes don't go into the GS).

That makes it a bit easier as I uncheck if I don't want to use that mission but I often make that choice after setting low morale/high fatigue formations to rest. ie I cancel the whole AD if I think its going to under-supported.

I think that AS is a very specialist choice, if you just want fighters to intervene around the front lines then auto-intercept can be good.

The AI goes a lot of GS, so vs the AI in particular always escort.

If you want to fight the enemy rather than deter them, AS or auto-intercept is better than escorts. Escorts don't go looking for trouble, their job is to get the bombers to target

interdiction is indirect, the logistics hit is near invisible, the hit on movement opaque. The best test of the latter is to use the Breakout scenario, left hand-right hand. Set up a #9 interdiction hex and then move a Pzr division into and out of it. It will recover some time in the early 1950s. Now do it via a #3 hex, accepting a random element it should have fatigue and some damage. Its still combat worthy but is weaker. And for the Allies in clear terrain in 1944 #3 is almost a given.

interdiction and combat intersect in 2 ways. If you interdict a reserve formation (this of course is guess work but an SS Pzr div 2 hexes behind the front is mostly likely on reserve to react), it gets shredded if it responds.

In a retreat, the unit has taken damage/losses, the disruptions recoded to fatigue now it gets hit again. And already damaged units are very liable to get destroyed and heavily fatigued elements can get destroyed (more likely damaged). So its akin to another air attack after the unit has been battered in combat.

Now in the summer of 1944 the Allies can do this sort of set up. GA-unit to get it nice and weak, GS to really constrain its combat power and GA-interdiction to finish it off as it falls back. The relative ground combat strengths are almost irrelevant.

Roger

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 11/3/2021 5:36:07 PM

rocketman71

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I have just started the 1944 D-day start campaign and will try to put all the good advice to use.
I previously started the May start version to try a landing in Brittany. I couldn't get all the airborne units to drop and got a "invalid hex" message. I was under the impression that in a predetermined invasion drop you could drop in any hex that your transports can reach, but obviously no. The landings was a disaster anyway so I went with the historical one instead.

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 11/4/2021 1:50:17 AM

cfulbright

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Until you have airborne corps or army, you have to land airborne in an adjacent hex to either an amphib invasion hex or an existing on-map ground unit.

Cary

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 11/4/2021 12:43:27 PM

rocketman71

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I get it. If/when they make WITW2 I hope for a better invasion planner interface. Too many things to keep track of and one small mistake can have huge ramifications turns later (and many hours of gameplay).

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 11/4/2021 4:27:53 PM

cfulbright

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Yes! Several years ago I learned the hard way to set automatic training in all air commands to ZERO. It turned out that for transport air groups to do air drops they need to have 0 movement, and if one pilot flew a training flight that gave that unit a 1 movement, and they couldn't drop the 101st AB.

Cary

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 11/4/2021 7:10:05 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rocketman71

I get it. If/when they make WITW2 I hope for a better invasion planner interface. Too many things to keep track of and one small mistake can have huge ramifications turns later (and many hours of gameplay).

the rules re airborne are fairly clear

a) the target hex must be within 10 (?) hexes from the nearest ground unit - this must be traced purely over ground hexes; or,
b) adjacent to a planned invasion hex

Now the system doesn't know if you set a hex in France if its a complex plan to envelop forces that react to your invasion, so you can order a mission you can't currently execute. In fact this is often a good idea, keep on resetting your airborne targets till you finally get lucky

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RE: Assigning ground support question - 11/10/2021 6:23:02 PM

Joch1955

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All good points. Important point is to make sure that 1) your bombers have, as much as possible, fighter escorts; and 2) flight altitude is , as much as possible, over 20k to minimise Flak losses.

note you can also manually equip your fighters with droptanks. 8th AF P-47s have them available from turn 1. Note sure if the AI uses them or not by default.

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