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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Gary Grigsby's War in the East 2 >> Tech Support >> Tanks vs planes

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Tanks vs planes - 10/31/2021 4:06:43 PM

Teo41_ITA

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Playing the Road to Minsk scenario (impossible difficulty). Is it historically accurate to have BT-7M tanks shooting at my incoming aircraft? I understand the individual riflemen (even if on T1 I would rather expect the Red Army soldiers to be cought completely by surprise and not at their battle stations waiting for my planes to arrive).

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 10/31/2021 5:04:31 PM

Denniss

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Some BT-7M commanders had their AAMG manned, guarding the airfield

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 10/31/2021 5:35:45 PM

Teo41_ITA

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Are there Luftwaffe AAR talking about this? And even if some tank commanders were manning AAMG, they must have not been in the tanks... hence, according to my logic, this does not make any sense, as they were not phisically in the vehicle directing the fire against the incoming planes.

Still, it was funny to see

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 10/31/2021 6:24:17 PM

Lurberri

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The AAMG is located on the turret of the BT-7M (1938-39).
http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/2-USSR/02-FastTanks/BT/BT-7(1938-1939).htm

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 10/31/2021 7:28:48 PM

Teo41_ITA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurberri

The AAMG is located on the turret of the BT-7M (1938-39).
http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/2-USSR/02-FastTanks/BT/BT-7(1938-1939).htm

Oh, my apologies! I was not aware of this! Thanks! I did learn something new today!

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 10/31/2021 8:11:14 PM

jubjub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Teo41_ITA

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lurberri

The AAMG is located on the turret of the BT-7M (1938-39).
http://www.wardrawings.be/WW2/Files/1-Vehicles/Allies/2-USSR/02-FastTanks/BT/BT-7(1938-1939).htm

Oh, my apologies! I was not aware of this! Thanks! I did learn something new today!

You can find this information by looking at the equipment tab of the Commander's Report as well. I had the same thought as to why IS-2's were shooting at German aircraft in the Vistula to Berlin campaign.

The real question is why maxim HMG's can perform AA duties.. but I digress.

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< Message edited by jubjub -- 10/31/2021 8:13:13 PM >

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 10/31/2021 8:28:36 PM

Dreamslayer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub
The real question is why maxim HMG's can perform AA duties.. but I digress.

It's a DT, not Maxim in this case.

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 11/1/2021 2:43:35 AM

Denniss

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I believe all HMGs, even LMGs, have a very limited AA capability (effective ceiling in data)

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 11/1/2021 4:46:23 PM

Joel Billings

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And just because the item is listed in the AA section doesn't mean it actually fired it's weapon. These are just potential AA that the unit flew over (added recon?

).

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 11/2/2021 6:56:02 PM

jubjub

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quote:

And just because the item is listed in the AA section doesn't mean it actually fired it's weapon. These are just potential AA that the unit flew over (added recon? ).

Humor me, and run the directives on level 7 detail and see how many planes get damaged. I counted over 50 in a typical run. This stuff adds up, especially when they are attacking corps sized units!

It should be impossible for a maxim HMG to perform deflection shooting on a diving Stuka (or anything else for that matter). Best case scenario, they can point their guns 30 degrees into the air vs a 90 degree dive, no deflection sights, no deflection training, horrible traverse time etc. They probably couldn't even set up and aim in the general direction of the Stuka until after it already pulled away! IMO all HMG's suffer from these problems, but especially the maxim..

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< Message edited by jubjub -- 11/2/2021 6:57:40 PM >

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 11/2/2021 7:42:53 PM

jubjub

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quote:

These are just potential AA that the unit flew over

I could be wrong, but I don't think this is right. If you watch the level 7 combat, the AA doesn't show up until it fires. Therefore, I think the numbers displayed show the amount of elements that fired in the AA phases.

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 11/2/2021 9:18:09 PM

MakeeLearn

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"Machine guns Maxim installed on anti-aircraft tripod folding designer M.N. Kondakov model 1928.

The tripod has a rotary swivel for the Maxim machine gun, the central tube and three telescopic tubular legs. Elevation machine gun on a tripod reaches 88 degrees.

Before the Great Patriotic War in the machine-gun company of infantry battalion from across the state were supposed to have one such a tripod."

https://albumwar2.com/soviet-anti-aircraft-maxim-heavy-machine-guns/

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 11/2/2021 9:21:00 PM

MakeeLearn

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https://en.topwar.ru/70758-otechestvennye-zenitno-pulemetnye-ustanovki-chast-1-ya.html

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 11/2/2021 9:24:33 PM

MakeeLearn

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And speaking from experience, when needed the assistant gunner and any ammo carrier can become any bipod or tripod needed.

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 11/2/2021 9:28:12 PM

MakeeLearn

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Wasn't there a German pilot who swears that when strafing a Russian column he saw a horseshoe flying at him.

Tiger Tank Shot Down Plane! Eastern Front 1943

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOWCFGTyJac

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RE: Tanks vs planes - 11/2/2021 10:31:49 PM

jubjub

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Ok, you convinced me that that they were often mounted on tripods. I also found out that the wheeled Sokolov mount could be converted to a tripod.

The other issues still remain, and they should still be very ineffective against ground attack aircraft. Run the test I provided and see if you think the amount of AA fire provided by 120 maxims is reasonable. Keep in mind that a 41b division contains 108 of these.

After a couple of tests, the AA from the maxims alone is causing almost a 1% casualty rate!

< Message edited by jubjub -- 11/2/2021 10:50:55 PM >

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