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Which Zero is the Best? - 11/7/2021 1:59:48 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Hello! I am curious what veteran Japanese players think of the end-line Zero models. What do you land on and go for? I am on the fence as I think each model has plusses and minuses that are apparent, and would like to know more about actual game experience.

A6M5

This plane is a clear improvement over the A6M2, and has good flight characteristics. The main drawback is a lack of armor, plus the smaller MGs.

Max range of (12) means they are most useful of the 3 for escorting Betty/Nell/Frances at range (though you can use Oscars)

This plane requires very little investment however to get before the Hellcat; focusing on the A6M5 does allow you to save supplies or devote R&D elsewhere. 3 Factories should be plenty for research and production.

A6M5c

This plane is slower and less maneuverable than the A6M5, but is tougher; has armor, plus the best firepower of any Zero. Is it worth the tradeoff in speed though?

This plane will require some investement to get in early 1943, at least 6 factories IMO.....

A6M8

The best all-around combat fighter of the 3, no question. Is it worth the tradeoffs?

RANGE is an issue, as the max range with droptanks is 8; that is max strike range on CVs, so is risky, and is an issue for CV use. They are not useful for any long-range escort.

They will also require an investment of 8-ish factories to get at same time as Hellcat

Overall, I am inclined to stop with the A6M5 and save the valuable supplies for other uses, but curious your thoughts






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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/7/2021 2:06:43 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		This AFB doesn't know much about their performance, but the best Zero is one at the bottom of the Pacific!



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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/7/2021 2:52:44 PM   
Uncivil Engineer

 

Posts: 1014
Joined: 2/22/2012
From: Florida, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

This AFB doesn't know much about their performance, but the best Zero is one at the bottom of the Pacific!




Or you could say on a scale of 1 to 10 they're all Zeroes!

But, seriously, the only redeeming characteristic of the A6M5c is armor, which slows it down compared to the A6M5. The A6M8 gives up one cannon for a little extra speed over the A6M5c.



< Message edited by Uncivil Engineer -- 11/7/2021 2:55:01 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/7/2021 3:02:43 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Hello! I am curious what veteran Japanese players think of the end-line Zero models. What do you land on and go for? I am on the fence as I think each model has plusses and minuses that are apparent, and would like to know more about actual game experience.

A6M5

This plane is a clear improvement over the A6M2, and has good flight characteristics. The main drawback is a lack of armor, plus the smaller MGs.

Max range of (12) means they are most useful of the 3 for escorting Betty/Nell/Frances at range (though you can use Oscars)

This plane requires very little investment however to get before the Hellcat; focusing on the A6M5 does allow you to save supplies or devote R&D elsewhere. 3 Factories should be plenty for research and production.

A6M5c

This plane is slower and less maneuverable than the A6M5, but is tougher; has armor, plus the best firepower of any Zero. Is it worth the tradeoff in speed though?

This plane will require some investement to get in early 1943, at least 6 factories IMO.....

A6M8

The best all-around combat fighter of the 3, no question. Is it worth the tradeoffs?

RANGE is an issue, as the max range with droptanks is 8; that is max strike range on CVs, so is risky, and is an issue for CV use. They are not useful for any long-range escort.

They will also require an investment of 8-ish factories to get at same time as Hellcat

Overall, I am inclined to stop with the A6M5 and save the valuable supplies for other uses, but curious your thoughts








I always go for the A6M5 and stop there. It's only for use on CVs, for land based IJNAF units you either want to have the George or Jack (depending on the mod). Put all your research into Sams, you need these for your carriers in 44. They eat Hellcats and can deal with Corsairs and they also mostly need only one firing pass to down a 1E carrier bomber unlike the Zero which often needs a second pass to down a bomber.

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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/7/2021 3:22:19 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline 		The 3 is my escort, the 5 my defender. I try to have both on a carrier with the 5s set to range 0. Once I have Sams the 5s get set aside. If we're not talking carrier, the 2 is still fine at shooting down light and medium bombers all the way through. Against Soviets they can sweep.

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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/7/2021 4:19:51 PM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Hello! I am curious what veteran Japanese players think of the end-line Zero models. What do you land on and go for? I am on the fence as I think each model has plusses and minuses that are apparent, and would like to know more about actual game experience.



Forget the late war Zero models. The later Zero models are effectively re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic for an airframe that's already out of date by 1943.

All in on the Sam - it's the only prospect for a worthwhile step change for IJN carrier fighters and a far better investment of effort than rehashing the outdated formula of the Zero.

The Zero tree is a red herring for late war IJN planning, don't fall for it.

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Post #: 6
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/7/2021 9:32:59 PM   
Lokasenna


Posts: 9297
Joined: 3/3/2012
From: Iowan in MD/DC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Hello! I am curious what veteran Japanese players think of the end-line Zero models. What do you land on and go for? I am on the fence as I think each model has plusses and minuses that are apparent, and would like to know more about actual game experience.

A6M5

This plane is a clear improvement over the A6M2, and has good flight characteristics. The main drawback is a lack of armor, plus the smaller MGs.

Max range of (12) means they are most useful of the 3 for escorting Betty/Nell/Frances at range (though you can use Oscars)

This plane requires very little investment however to get before the Hellcat; focusing on the A6M5 does allow you to save supplies or devote R&D elsewhere. 3 Factories should be plenty for research and production.

A6M5c

This plane is slower and less maneuverable than the A6M5, but is tougher; has armor, plus the best firepower of any Zero. Is it worth the tradeoff in speed though?

This plane will require some investement to get in early 1943, at least 6 factories IMO.....

A6M8

The best all-around combat fighter of the 3, no question. Is it worth the tradeoffs?

RANGE is an issue, as the max range with droptanks is 8; that is max strike range on CVs, so is risky, and is an issue for CV use. They are not useful for any long-range escort.

They will also require an investment of 8-ish factories to get at same time as Hellcat

Overall, I am inclined to stop with the A6M5 and save the valuable supplies for other uses, but curious your thoughts







I largely don't bother with anything but the A6M2, A6M3a, A6M5c, and A6M8. Everything else is just a stopover on the research path up to the A6M8. If I could get the A6M8 early enough to skip everything between it and the A6M2, I would, but it's just not really feasible to do so.

The longer range of the A6M3a is useful before you have the George for long range LBA stuff, but otherwise... You don't need range greater than 8 on your CVs, which is the only thing you need Zeroes for.

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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/7/2021 10:12:01 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Great replies! Playing Scenario 28 which has alot of supply constraints, so I'm probably going to get to A6M5, which is the cheapest option, and stop. Leave more resources for the A7M, which is the big leap in CV-based aviation.

Good discussion.......should start another thread on investing in Tojo vs. Oscar, as I know there is alot of opinion there too.

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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/8/2021 12:01:34 AM   
dr.hal


Posts: 3335
Joined: 6/3/2006
From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		I've enjoyed reading this discussion. It's amazing to me that in today's world we think technology changes so rapidly as to be mind boggling, however when you think about aviation in '41 as compared to '44 it shows that historically speaking we don't have a corner on that concept, it was evident even back then. In just a few years a plane that was a "wonder" at the start of the war, was relegated to second string a few years later!

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Post #: 9
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/8/2021 12:33:42 AM   
mind_messing

 

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Great replies! Playing Scenario 28 which has alot of supply constraints, so I'm probably going to get to A6M5, which is the cheapest option, and stop. Leave more resources for the A7M, which is the big leap in CV-based aviation.



Suggest you compare the A6M5 vs the M2 model and ask yourself if it's worth it.

quote:

Good discussion.......should start another thread on investing in Tojo vs. Oscar, as I know there is alot of opinion there too.


I'm convinced 60% of the joy of playing Japan comes from the minutiae of aircraft R&D.

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Post #: 10
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/8/2021 8:32:42 AM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Regarding the speed of the fighters, every A6M model is slower than the Hellcat and much slower than the Corsair.
So as soon your allied opponent starts to replace his Wildcats with those two fighters the A6M will be at a disadvantage, no matter what model.

The A6M5 can help a lot in mitigating that disadvantage as it is an considerable improvement above the A6M2, but after that it is likely better to go for the A7M instead.
The A7M has roughly the same speed as most USN fighters with the only exception being the late war USN fighter models, speaking about 8/45 here.

The A6M5c model is actually a great improvement from the A6M5 model. The speed difference between the A6M5 and the A6M5c is "only" 14 mph, but you get a lot of firepower and finally some armor in return.
But the shorter range limits its usefulness in CV operations and pretty much makes it a ground fighter, of which the IJN has better alternatives with the Jack and George.
So I would agree that anything above the A6M5 is probably not worth pursuing.

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Post #: 11
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/8/2021 3:51:10 PM   
geofflambert


Posts: 14863
Joined: 12/23/2010
From: St. Louis
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Great replies! Playing Scenario 28 which has alot of supply constraints, so I'm probably going to get to A6M5, which is the cheapest option, and stop. Leave more resources for the A7M, which is the big leap in CV-based aviation.

Good discussion.......should start another thread on investing in Tojo vs. Oscar, as I know there is alot of opinion there too.

The Oscar IIIa is da bomb!

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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/8/2021 6:27:35 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Great replies! Playing Scenario 28 which has alot of supply constraints, so I'm probably going to get to A6M5, which is the cheapest option, and stop. Leave more resources for the A7M, which is the big leap in CV-based aviation.



This is exactly what I've done in my last campaign same scenario as yours. Ended up with 900 Sams on my carriers some time in early 44 IIRC. The A6M5 will do just fine for you in 43 as the Allied will also still field lots and lots of F4F-4. So while the Hellcat is better than the A6M5 the A6M5 is better than the Wildcat so it will even out nicely with an advantage for the Japanese until the Allied can go all Hellcat/Corsair but by then you should have the Sam. If you don't overdo with factory changes you won't have any supply constraints. Even though I captured some 1 mio supplies from the Allied I still had 5 mio reserves from my own production in 45 and did all my R&D.

Just make sure you don't lose any carriers until 44 and you will see what hundreds and hundreds of Sams can do.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 11/8/2021 6:29:06 PM >

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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/8/2021 10:50:45 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Hello! I am curious what veteran Japanese players think of the end-line Zero models. What do you land on and go for? I am on the fence as I think each model has plusses and minuses that are apparent, and would like to know more about actual game experience.



Forget the late war Zero models. The later Zero models are effectively re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic for an airframe that's already out of date by 1943.

All in on the Sam - it's the only prospect for a worthwhile step change for IJN carrier fighters and a far better investment of effort than rehashing the outdated formula of the Zero.

The Zero tree is a red herring for late war IJN planning, don't fall for it.


Totally concur.


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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/8/2021 11:20:47 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The best zero is the second one to the right on any currency that I have!

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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/9/2021 12:02:12 AM   
Zeckke

 

Posts: 95
Joined: 8/6/2021
Status: offline 		A6m5 is the best (A5m5c with is short range is not worhty is the oscar of 1943 just ham to kill)

A6m8 is also better but ask mike solli (the chief) how to do 3000 engines (stop oscar factorys at the start) do only 8 engines))

so if you can make 3000 engines then go for A6m8 which means not to have Carriers battles between 1942-1944, two years saving japan carriers and of course the pilots.

A6m8 factorys can really make quickly 3000 units

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Post #: 16
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/11/2021 7:56:52 AM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		The Zero smashed by the pumpkins.

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Post #: 17
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/18/2021 11:08:17 AM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline 		A6M5b - reasons: It has the same stats as M5 only loses 3mph BUT trades a HMG vs. a LMG.

M2 is good early on... the other variants are not worth much, but if you can get them fast and cheap go for them too. The M8 has a worthy engine better used for other planes and it is not that good for such a late plane.

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Post #: 18
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/18/2021 1:17:54 PM   
AtParmentier

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 12/15/2019
Status: offline 		Depending on game rules and house rules the M8 might be viable (via upgrade paths). Most games it's not priority.

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RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/18/2021 6:40:41 PM   
Chickenboy


Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Great replies! Playing Scenario 28 which has alot of supply constraints, so I'm probably going to get to A6M5, which is the cheapest option, and stop. Leave more resources for the A7M, which is the big leap in CV-based aviation.

Good discussion.......should start another thread on investing in Tojo vs. Oscar, as I know there is alot of opinion there too.


Scenario 2 IJN A6MX production for me:

A6M2-[skip A6M3a]-A6M5-A6M5c-A6M8 in parallel with simultaneous A7M research

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Post #: 20
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/18/2021 7:52:41 PM   
jdsrae


Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline 		In my first pbem I went 2,5c,8 with Sam on the way.
I prioritised armour and firepower over range as drop tanks give the escorts the range they need.
If it’s PDU Off, the A6M8!

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Post #: 21
RE: Which Zero is the Best? - 11/18/2021 8:13:53 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		I'm on Scenario 28, which is Scenario 1 except Refineries do not produce supply. As such, in #28 supply preservation is a high priority. Toward that end, I am probably going with A6M5 and stop, with a large research effort on the A7M for late war.

Getting the A6M5 is cheap; 4 factories, and that's also all I'll need for production.

Researching the A6M8 I think requires more factories than that.

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