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RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021

 
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RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/7/2021 11:10:43 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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quote:


For example, the "Cards" that VR Designs introduced into the DCS series would work great for a Bombing the Reich II game -- because you could then play the "Glue Factory Bombed!" card.


Slight correction: The "Cards" that VR Designs introduced, were first introduced in Advanced Tactics. Frankly I am not surprised that there is this oversight. Advanced Tactics, is a criminally overlooked game, in general. The editor in it allows for many different scenarios (even campaigns) that can look very similar to DC.

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Post #: 61
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/7/2021 11:48:23 PM   
pkpowers

 

Posts: 412
Joined: 12/12/2000
From: midland,TX
Status: offline 		Also overlooked are Frank Hunters games ; Campaigns on the Danube - Guns of August - Piercing Fortress Europa

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Post #: 62
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/8/2021 2:03:20 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		What a great discussion. And civil, no less. The comments, the screenshots, the history of digital wargames...as well as the theories and the possible explanations.

No wonder this is the only forum I check every day.

Sincerely,

Your humble OP

And yes, back OT, Frank Hunter seemed to be a lone wolf developer too, but made a significant contribution to the genre.

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Post #: 63
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/8/2021 5:15:34 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Personally I think the state of wargames for 2020-2022 is fantastic.

Tactical I am still playing Shrapnel’s Steel Panthers WW2/MBT.
Operational I am still playing all the JTS series (Panzer Campaign, Napoleonic's and the ACW).
Strategic/Operational I am playing WitE2.


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Post #: 64
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/8/2021 8:35:56 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 536
Joined: 8/17/2011
Status: offline 		I think the problem is not about design about previous games. There is 1000+ hours or lifetime needed to play these very good games. Steam has previously 2 TL fixed for a Dollar. Dollar now nearly 10 Turkish Lira. If Wargames have niche market "somehow 1 man show" than should look for other markets with better pricing. World is 8 billion people. And have many other conflicts than CW or WW'2 in the past.

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Post #: 65
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/8/2021 9:59:25 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: boudi

God, there are still players who dare to choose SS avatars on this forum.


So?




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 66
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/8/2021 10:41:28 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 536
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Status: offline 		It reminds me during dictator Mobarak times when I was in Egypt 20 years ago.. Shape of Ankh resemble as a Christian symbol. But not about it about more about ancient Egypt. People seems to confuse symbols.

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Post #: 67
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/8/2021 11:08:18 PM   
ernieschwitz

 

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Status: offline 		Way to derail a good discussion. (Both of you)



< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/9/2021 12:02:01 PM >

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Post #: 68
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/8/2021 11:22:09 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

Way to derail a good discussion. (Both of you)



So? Don't you like it?

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/9/2021 12:02:20 PM >

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Post #: 69
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/8/2021 11:24:56 PM   
Zovs


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Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		Well it lasted 3 pages 😐

And another thread bites the dust

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Post #: 70
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/8/2021 11:55:52 PM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Well it lasted 3 pages 😐

And another thread bites the dust


Why would this thread "bite the dust?"

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Post #: 71
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 1:57:39 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
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Status: offline 		The thread (potentially) bites the dust because someone brings up a discussion about SS symbols when everyone else is concentrating on the state-of-the-art of digital wargames. I think the SS topic deserves its own thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Personally I think the state of wargames for 2020-2022 is fantastic.

Tactical I am still playing Shrapnel’s Steel Panthers WW2/MBT.
Operational I am still playing all the JTS series (Panzer Campaign, Napoleonic's and the ACW).
Strategic/Operational I am playing WitE2.




Why fantastic, when like me, you are playing mostly 1990s games, except for WitE2, which is an evolution of a 1990s game. To my point, where is the progress here? Just saying...

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Post #: 72
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 2:25:55 AM   
Big Ivan


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From: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosseau

The thread (potentially) bites the dust because someone brings up a discussion about SS symbols when everyone else is concentrating on the state-of-the-art of digital wargames. I think the SS topic deserves its own thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Personally I think the state of wargames for 2020-2022 is fantastic.

Tactical I am still playing Shrapnel’s Steel Panthers WW2/MBT.
Operational I am still playing all the JTS series (Panzer Campaign, Napoleonic's and the ACW).
Strategic/Operational I am playing WitE2.




Why fantastic, when like me, you are playing mostly 1990s games, except for WitE2, which is an evolution of a 1990s game. To my point, where is the progress here? Just saying...



I was not thinking that but it makes sense!

Its funny, I started playing board games in the early 70's and in the late 90's I moved on to Computer (Digital) wargames. One of the biggest reasons for me was convenience and I didn't need to have huge tables to enjoy my games!

I remember we had 2-3 ping-pong tables to setup GDW's Fire In The East. Today with Grigsby's game on the eastern from I have it on my computer screen and life is good!!

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Post #: 73
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 7:37:48 AM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		Yes, the ping pong tables and more..

I played games in the late 60s with Bish Iwaszko - inventor of several sets of rules - including one where we used a logarithmic scale so artillery could be used with the concatenation of distance.

Here's an article and an AAR :

https://vintagewargaming.blogspot.com/search/label/Bish%20Iwaszko


Curiously the PC game that most reminded me of those days was Sudden Strike which was an RTS - but our rules were more like a reference library with looking up armour penetration tables and armour thickness at X degrees.

Thank you to the PC game developers.

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Post #: 74
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 7:46:18 AM   
loki100


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe
...

So? Don't you like it?


well it doesn't exactly add to what is an interesting thread does it - and there is a danger that people respond to something that really is unneeded?

my small take. I think there is more innovation than some do in this thread. Some of it is incremental in that its feasible to assume greater computing power available, some I think is the baseline standard being raised. I know how much effort Matrix puts into the game UIs these days (and the documentation), so I can't think of any recent games where the UI is a fundamental struggle just to do something simple (there are UIs I like less or more but that is both a value judgement and how much I am prepared to work on the game).

Matrix have 3 games I know of that are relatively straight ports of the original board game.WW1gold, WIF and EIA. The first remains probably the definitive computer rendition of WW1 at a strategic level but it is actually unplayable - some is poor UI, but mostly its that a set of steps that made perfect sense using a map and counters and are actually incredibly convuluted when coded. The FoG2 series are probably the best example of how a board game needs to adapted for PC play?

There are plenty of really innovative game designs out there. AGEOD's Empires manages to capture the dynamics of state rise, ossification and collapse in a single core concept, easy to grasp but like entropy a bit harder to avoid. All in all, I agree with the post above

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

Personally I think the state of wargames for 2020-2022 is fantastic.

...



I've just finished a set of MP games using the Flashpoint Red Storm game which 8 years post release remains innovative. If I really want to experience the frustrations of pre-telegraph command and control a quick trip to the Danube with Frank Hunter's CoD will scratch that itch.


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Post #: 75
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 11:53:43 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: boudi
God, there are still players who dare to choose SS avatars on this forum.


Sending this thread off-track with a comment that assumes bad faith is never a constructive action. If you have concerns, the better way to handle it would be to ask "Why did you choose that avatar?" in a PM or a separate thread.

Outside of a historical wargame forum, a SS avatar would clearly be a very questionable choice. Even within historical wargaming, we don't glorify the SS and in fact understand their atrocities more than most due to our study of history. Of the "core" SS divisions, it's hard to think of a single one that wasn't in some way implicated in atrocities. Of course, there were also other divisions that were later on put into the SS organizationally for different reasons, including that they were of non-German composition and thus less politically reliable, many of which had very different records and reasons for fighting than the "core" SS.
For example, the Estonian SS division. However, like any number of "elite" units throughout history, they also had a role on the battlefield and in many cases it was a key role.

Strictly from a wargaming and battlefield perspective let's focus on the "core" SS. They were interesting units that tended to receive better equipment and often unique equipment and had fanatical fighting morale. Many of the key battles of WW2, whether on the Western or Eastern front, involved the SS in a battlefield role. Wargamers are typically able to compartmentalize history in order to study a battle and when we fight a battle, the units that are unusual in some way tend to stand out. I would personally be repelled by someone choosing an avatar of a unit like the Dirlewanger Brigade that has no real wargaming role but is infamous for its atrocities, but I can understand an wargamer's interest in something like the 101st Heavy Panzer Battalion or someone like Michael Wittmann, though if I had to choose a German tank ace, I'd personally prefer Kurt Knispel or Otto Carius.

In any case, which avatar caused you concern? Please let me know via PM rather than further derailing this thread.

Regards,

- Erik




< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/9/2021 12:00:45 PM >

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Post #: 76
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 12:00:27 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

quote:

ORIGINAL: boudi

God, there are still players who dare to choose SS avatars on this forum.


So?


One of the many pre-Nazi uses of the Swastika (this one in Scouting) which was never an offensive symbol until a fascist dictator used it to signify a movement that slaughtered millions in a crazed genocide. To be clear, the swastika is not banned here in historical context, but given its history in WW2 it should always be shown with context and care and a basic level of decency/understanding for those many millions who were murdered by the Nazis.

Instead of responding to a form of concern trolling with swastika trolling knowing that it's likely to offend without context and escalate this from a constructive discussion to a locked thread, consider instead offering polite discussion and education.

I'd like to see more good sense shown here as it was a thread that was of value. I'll ask both of you that if you have any further concerns about avatars or such to please contact me via PMs.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/9/2021 12:02:49 PM >

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Post #: 77
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 1:06:22 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The thanks badge from the British Boy Scouting organization should not be offensive to most people but who knows?

https://www.worldscoutingmuseum.org/swastikas.shtml

Use this search term for more results including a couple of pdfs:

"A guide to the Medals and Awards of The Scout Association"

There were also other uses of the Swastica by the Boy Scouts but technically what was pictured is a fylfot which has been used in heraldry among other uses.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fylfot

These should not be mistaken for the Hakenkreuz which is what someone else used.

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Post #: 78
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 1:12:27 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rosseau

Why fantastic, when like me, you are playing mostly 1990s games, except for WitE2, which is an evolution of a 1990s game. To my point, where is the progress here? Just saying...



Well to be in the context of fantastic I mean we have so many games available for just about any era, conflict and scope (tactical, operational, strategic).

Granted most of my 'favorites' were built or constructed in the 90's, but all are or have been updated in 2020-2021.

For example all the JTS games get a facelift and update at one point.

The Shrapnel's Steel Panthers series is the only Steel Panthers versions that have been updated and upgraded for over 22 years.

And lastly the WitE2 is a tremendous update over WitE 1.

As far as 'innovation' I really do like the simo-turn (WEGO I think its called) structure of both the Flashpoint Campaign Series and the Desert War Series (looking forward to the Stalingrad version there).

So that is essentially what I meant by fantastic.

To me it's kind of like when I lived through the late 70's when SPI was in its heyday as a young lad.

Second Front from Microprose will have some innovations in it (contrary to those calling it an ASL clone, its far from that at all). It has some features for tactical games that I think are innovated and yet to be seen.

I have never played that Naval/Air game Command (mainly cause I am not a naval/air only folk), but that seems pretty innovative.

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Post #: 79
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 1:20:15 PM   
cristianwj


Posts: 184
Joined: 7/14/2009
Status: offline 		It's a little off topic.

In my memory, the first digital wargame I have played was East Front by John Tiller.
Before that I have played several strategy games made by Japanese companies about Chinese history of Three Kindom era.
By the way, Close combat , War in Russia and Panzer General were legend at that time.
Which make me glad is after nearly 20 years, WITE2, CMO and other digital wargames make a great progress, not only user interface but also playability.
I think Decisive Campaign Ardennes Offensive make these series to a high point in last 5 years.

It's understandable most wargame players missed the good old time. I also do.
But put the point of view from now to the future, I think wargames might be more open for all users. Easier to get familar with, and much better internet or cloud server assistant.
And the AI will be develop to a new stage in next few years and make games more like play with a real people.

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Post #: 80
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 1:46:26 PM   
CapnDarwin


Posts: 8467
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: Newark, OH
Status: offline 		To get back on topic, here is my summary of this state of wargaming: 30 years later and we still sit in front of a screen, keyboard, and mouse. Yes, the screens are bigger, and the resolution is greater and some screens look like surfboards. The only real change over this time is what goes on under the cover of the PC. Faster CPUs, bigger GPUs, more RAM, and massive storage space. Plus, this little thing called the internet. While people seem to yearn for this mystical change in how to game, the reality is there are no new means to do the basic functions of input and output. Barring plugging a chip into our brains to think to the computer, that will come someday, we are locked into the same methods of information flow. The same menu/toolbar, right-click, and left-click mechanics used over 30 years still work today and the mechanics and conventions are well known. People see that and go, "hey the 90s called and they want their UI back", but everyone who used a windows PC is not confused about how that UI works. If I make you suddenly have to make clover-leak mouse gestures while tapping the space bar with your nose to open a dialog or do a movement on a map, while innovative, it is damn stupid and most gamers who never read manuals won't understand how to play the game or even start it. I have refunded or uninstalled a few games for this type of "innovative" UI issue.

What has innovated in the past three decades is what most players never see. What goes on in the code. What we have gained in the past 30 years is the means to constantly reduce the level of abstraction required to perform many of the calculations covering everything from movement to spotting/LOS to combat. What was once a simple formula and a die roll or two can now be a more detailed and realistic calculation based on many different factors that weigh on the outcome of events. Even with all this newfound computing capability, one area lagging in most games is the AI. Partly that is the fault of deeming early weighted if-then trees and die rolls as being "AI", when in fact we are still slowly getting to a technology point where home PCs can truly have a running game AI. Here again, we have a very major abstraction of a "human" mindset. Most games lean on the weighted die rolls and complex if-then logic. Some innovative games try to better mimic more advanced processes to achieve a "smart" answer to a game situation. The best means of having a true AI game is playing another human. As the horsepower of computers continues to grow, better implementations of AI will rise and the abstraction of thought and even memory of events will improve in the games we play.

So, sit back and enjoy the ride.


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Post #: 81
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 4:54:30 PM   
Elessar2


Posts: 883
Joined: 11/30/2016
Status: offline 		It may be the whole set of wargaming conventions has reached its inevitable end, in the general idiom in question. What I want to see is a combination of a FPS, flight sim, & RTS, thousands of players on a theatre-wide map (every human is an officer, commanding platoons/torpedo boats/squadrons on up-yep, needing some good bot code), fully dynamic world. This would require some devs who treat their subject as a labor of love, vs. a cash cow, of course, and in this day and age I dunno about that. Bring in the World Of War X/Call of Duty/flight simmers/wargamers all under one huge umbrella.

[Yes I am aware of the 1st attempt to do this in WW2 Online, which is no longer getting any substantial overhauls given that their original coding team is long gone. I wouldn't let their failure be any sort of harbinger here.]

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Post #: 82
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 5:40:38 PM   
DingBat

 

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Seriously, if you think war game developers look on their games as "cash cows", well, I'm not sure what to say.

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Post #: 83
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 6:55:02 PM   
jmlima

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2

What I want to see is a combination of a FPS, flight sim, & RTS, ...



That's sort of what Campaign was back in the day, well if allow for the tech at the time.

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Post #: 84
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 8:36:49 PM   
gamer78

 

Posts: 536
Joined: 8/17/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CapnDarwin

... What was once a simple formula and a die roll or two can now be a more detailed and realistic calculation based on many different factors that weigh on the outcome of events. Even with all this newfound computing capability, one area lagging in most games is the AI. Partly that is the fault of deeming early weighted if-then trees and die rolls as being "AI", when in fact we are still slowly getting to a technology point where home PCs can truly have a running game AI. Here again, we have a very major abstraction of a "human" mindset. Most games lean on the weighted die rolls and complex if-then logic. Some innovative games try to better mimic more advanced processes to achieve a "smart" answer to a game situation. The best means of having a true AI game is playing another human. As the horsepower of computers continues to grow, better implementations of AI will rise and the abstraction of thought and even memory of events will improve in the games we play.

So, sit back and enjoy the ride.



For a hex wargame most probably the problem is about AI, nothing estetic -graphic wise- to show. As it is historic game it should have a challange for a historical point. For a fantasy&RPG such as Conquest of Elysium lore&magic and different races and roguelike play cover bad AI. Dev for Conquest of Elysium did publish 5th version of his game. I think he has second job or game sells well.

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Post #: 85
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/9/2021 8:53:56 PM   
gamer78

 

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Joined: 8/17/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


There are plenty of really innovative game designs out there. AGEOD's Empires manages to capture the dynamics of state rise, ossification and collapse in a single core concept, easy to grasp but like entropy a bit harder to avoid.



For a grand strategy game AGEOD could look for Victoria times once again. İlber Ortaylı has incredible book about OE -The Empire’s Longest Century-

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Post #: 86
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/10/2021 1:19:25 AM   
Rosseau

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gamer78


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


There are plenty of really innovative game designs out there. AGEOD's Empires manages to capture the dynamics of state rise, ossification and collapse in a single core concept, easy to grasp but like entropy a bit harder to avoid.



For a grand strategy game AGEOD could look for Victoria times once again. İlber Ortaylı has incredible book about OE -The Empire’s Longest Century-


Yes, AGEOD, is another industry innovator. The company's older Revolution Under Siege campaign game remains incredible in its scope and detail. (And, of course, the Gold edition is still available here on Matrix.)

I am with all of you on your comments and do not want to appear "ungrateful" for the bounty of digital wargames available, literally within seconds of purchase.

For instance, I could not have imagined the genre would have evolved from playing Battleship with my brother with plastic ships and pegs in 1968, to WitP:AE. And, admittedly, that evolution did take a long time!

Now, we're comparing the evolution from V4V Utah Beach to present-day (about 30 years). I still don't fully see it as quite as dramatic as that first 30-year period of evolution...



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Post #: 87
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/10/2021 1:54:03 AM   
Elessar2


Posts: 883
Joined: 11/30/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DingBat


Seriously, if you think war game developers look on their games as "cash cows", well, I'm not sure what to say.



No, you misconstrued what I said. I'm mainly talking about the devs of MMO shooters like World of Tanks (and only when it clearly applies and not as any sort of blanket statement by any stretch). Seems like these games get made with the highest of aspirations (maybe), but then incrementalism sneaks in, subsequent changes seem to favor the cash stream and not gameplay so much, cue grumbling of the player base as people start to leave for greener pastures. Perusing any negative Steam reviews of these kinds of games and you'll see tons of criticism along those lines.

No doubt that most devs here by contrast are in it for the subject matter.

(in reply to DingBat)
Post #: 88
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/10/2021 5:01:17 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline 		I was thinking more of "traditional" wargames, rather than World of Tanks (an MMO shooter), that albeit looks incredible!

Some people have mentioned Steel Panthers WaW and MBT that continue to be "updated" on Shrapnel's site for the last 20 years or so.

However, in 2021, I feel we should be playing the same WaW and MBT games with the graphics and interface level of Panzer Corps 2. I'd spend the rest of my life playing them.

Why (with all due respect) must the world continue to wait on 2x3 Games to create such a product? Was Panzer Corps 2 intentionally "simplified," or could it have been a breakthrough wargame?




(in reply to Elessar2)
Post #: 89
RE: The State of Digital Wargames Nov. 2021 - 11/10/2021 7:43:19 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: gamer78


quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100


There are plenty of really innovative game designs out there. AGEOD's Empires manages to capture the dynamics of state rise, ossification and collapse in a single core concept, easy to grasp but like entropy a bit harder to avoid.



For a grand strategy game AGEOD could look for Victoria times once again. İlber Ortaylı has incredible book about OE -The Empire’s Longest Century-


oh if Phillipe could be encouraged/funded to remake Pride of Nations with the Empires game engine I think I'd end up completely anti-social. PoN is an example of a game brimming with brilliant concepts that create intereresting game mechanics out of a rich understanding of the period in question.

Unfortunately far too ambitious for the game engine it was based on.

In a way this is what I mean about innovative design. Some of it is improving game accessibility (UI if you like) but a lot of is a designer with a strong narrative view of how their game should work and what really matters in the modelling and player interaction. Vic does this extremely well, Shadow Empire has no 'historical' base but has a clear narrative structure, WiTE2 is a design based on a clear understanding of key dynamics. I think more and more games (at least those supported by Matrix) are coming from this mindset?

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(in reply to gamer78)
Post #: 90
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