Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: eouellet

The rule is:
If the result includes an ‘S’ (shatter) or a ‘B’ (breakthrough), put each surviving defending land unit on the production circle if it could have retreated. These units will arrive as reinforcements next turn. Destroy
any units that could not have retreated.

The other rule is:
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

I assume Germany installed Vichy, not Italy in your game.

Based on the image I am not sure about the hexes ownership, but the Italians cannot retreat through the Vichy French units as they cannot cooperate. So, the issue is the top right hex. If it is allied controled, then the system is correct for sure. If it is Vichy controlled, it depends if you have other Italian HQs in Vichy. I can see a 2 re-reorg, but you have already 4 Italian units in Vichy.

As well, by shattering Graziani, you just lowered the Italian Foreign Troop Commitment by 2.

So, it seems correct to me.

quote:

17.4.RUNNING VICHY FRANCE

ACCESS TO VICHY TERRITORY
No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

From the "Rules as Coded".

quote:

17.4.RUNNING VICHY FRANCE

ACCESS TO VICHY TERRITORY
No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

As I read the relevant rule, since Vichy is both active and hostile, Germany who installed Vichy should be able to move units in and out without regard to FTC.

Also, in this rule I see no provision for allowing Italy to enter Vichy under any condition. This may explain why the 2 Italian units were destroyed because they could have only retreated through Vichy controlled hexes. However; if I'm understand the rules correctly, they shouldn't have been allowed to be there in the first place. Not sure if I can but I'll see if I can find a game turn just prior to any axis units moving into a hostile Vichy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

From the "Rules as Coded".

quote:

17.4.RUNNING VICHY FRANCE

ACCESS TO VICHY TERRITORY
No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group.
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits.

As I read the relevant rule, since Vichy is both active and hostile, Germany who installed Vichy should be able to move units in and out without regard to FTC.

Also, in this rule I see no provision for allowing Italy to enter Vichy under any condition. This may explain why the 2 Italian units were destroyed because they could have only retreated through Vichy controlled hexes. However; if I'm understand the rules correctly, they shouldn't have been allowed to be there in the first place. Not sure if I can but I'll see if I can find a game turn just prior to any axis units moving into a hostile Vichy.

Correct.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

One could argue that Italian units are allowed to be in Vichy if Vichy France is "active and hostile". Subject, of course, to the foreign troop commitment rules.

There are three different status levels for the Vichy government that controls access to their territory and each is listed in the rules.

Assuming that Germany installed Vichy France then this is the different special rule regarding entrance into Vichy territory.
1) If Vichy France is neutral, then no Axis units may enter (except to collapse).
2) If Vichy France is active, then only German units may enter, and then subject to foreign troop commitment rules.
3) If Vichy France is active and hostile, then German units can enter without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment
limits.

So in this case Vichy France is active and hostile so part 3 guards access to Vichy territory. Note that there is nothing mentioning that access to Vichy territory is forbidden for Italy in part 3. Only that Germany do not need to use the foreign HQ rule. Thus normal rules apply for Italy in regards to entering another major power home country which Italy does not co-operate with.

Conclusion: Italy may be in Vichy France, and retreat. Albeit HQ restrictions apply when entering Vichy French home country hexes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

"If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits." Again, this limits entry to Vichy by German controlled units without FTC. No where do I see any rule that would allow Italian or Japanese controlled units to enter even with FTC. To me to assume otherwise is to make assumptions about the rules that I don't see are there. Unless, and very well, if I missing something?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

I agree with Ronnie and Peter.

The rule says that if Vichy is active, only German units may enter, and must satisfy FTC limits. The next sentence modifies this: if Vichy is active and hostile, all German units may enter without needing to satisfy FTC. I see nothing in this second sentence that overrides the prohibition of Italian units from entering Vichy in the first place.

So the question for me is not "Why are the Italian units destroyed?" but "Why were the Italians allowed in in the first place?" The fact that something strange happens when one starts from an illegal position does not overly concern me.

(Of course the fact that I agree with you about a controversial WiF rules question is all too often a clear sign that you are wrong. )

quote:

ORIGINAL: eouellet

Just to beat it to death...

In the Vichy collapse rules, it state :
"If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has collapsed:
 Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a collapse;"

The expression "Axis units" is clear here, so it is not the hostile status, per se, but the presence of an allied power unit in Vichy territory (which, of course, causes the hostile status) that allows Axis powers to come in Vichy Metropolitan territory. Then, the installing power is granted the exception as described in the rules, while the others follow the normal non-cooperating rule (i.e. must meet FTC).

quote:

ref: 17.4
If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units
controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can
enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign
troop commitment limits.


If an Allied unit enters Metropolitan Vichy France before it has
collapsed:
- Axis units can enter Metropolitan Vichy France without causing a
collapse; and
- Vichy units no longer test their loyalty prior to land combat
resolution (see 17.5).

quote:

ORIGINAL: BrianJH

Yeah that's my interpretation of the rules also.

If Vichy is Active and Hostile then,

If, Germany installed Vichy, then Germany can enter Vichy without having to satisfy FTC.

Other Axis units (eg. Italy ) can also enter Vichy, subject to FTC.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Courtenay

The question is whether the rule stating that only the power that installed Vichy may enter Vichy if Vichy is active still applies if Vichy is active and hostile.

This is not clear. I had thought that it was, until Orm pointed out that that is not just a different sentence, but a different paragraph.

The rule states that if Vichy is active, only the power that installed Vichy may enter it.

The next paragraph states that if Vichy is active and hostile the installing major power may enter it and does not have to worry about FTC. It says nothing about other Axis major powers. So does this override the previous rule? I don't see why it would. Vichy is still active, just, in addition, hostile. So I would think that the previous rule would still stand, as it has not been explicitly cancelled.

As I said, I would not be surprised to find that I am wrong here. It would not be for the first time. However, that is how I see the rules read.

(We could always break down and send in a question to ADG to resolve this issue. )

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

(2) Italian (and even Japanese) controlled units may enter Metropolitan Vichy because both CW and US units have entered Vichy. What's not spelled out is whether or not FTC limits apply.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

(2) Italian (and even Japanese) controlled units may enter Metropolitan Vichy because both CW and US units have entered Vichy. What's not spelled out is whether or not FTC limits apply.

I refer you to rule 11.11.5 Active major powers. This because Metropolitan Vichy is the Home Country of Vichy France (a major power). And Italy is an active major power on the same side as Vichy France. And Italy does not co-operate with Vichy France.

11.11 Land movement
...
11.11.5 Active major powers
...
units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the
foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2);

quote:

ORIGINAL: eouellet

Hi Ronnie,

The 2 Italian units should be destroyed. The system was doing the right thing for the combat sequence, because Italy was exceeding the FTC, and the units could only retreat into VF hexes (virtually), a requirement for them to be shattered.

Normally, this should not have happened if the system was doing the proper check at the end of the movement phase, destroying units in excess of the FTC. Hence, at the combat phase the Italians would not be in excess of the FTC, and could be shattered by virtually retreating into a VF hex.

quote:

ORIGINAL: eouellet

Hi Ronnie,

The 2 Italian units should be destroyed. The system was doing the right thing for the combat sequence, because Italy was exceeding the FTC, and the units could only retreat into VF hexes (virtually), a requirement for them to be shattered.

Normally, this should not have happened if the system was doing the proper check at the end of the movement phase, destroying units in excess of the FTC. Hence, at the combat phase the Italians would not be in excess of the FTC, and could be shattered by virtually retreating into a VF hex.

quote:

FOREIGN TROOP COMMITMENTS
A major power or minor country unit that ends any step in the home country of a friendly major power it doesn’t co-operate with is destroyed unless:
* It started the step there; or
* It started the step elsewhere and the unit satisfies the foreign troop commitment limit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Orm

quote:

ORIGINAL: rkr1958

(2) Italian (and even Japanese) controlled units may enter Metropolitan Vichy because both CW and US units have entered Vichy. What's not spelled out is whether or not FTC limits apply.

I refer you to rule 11.11.5 Active major powers. This because Metropolitan Vichy is the Home Country of Vichy France (a major power). And Italy is an active major power on the same side as Vichy France. And Italy does not co-operate with Vichy France.

11.11 Land movement
...
11.11.5 Active major powers
...
units can’t enter the home country of a non co-operating major power on the same side unless they satisfy the
foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2);

quote:

ORIGINAL: Centuur

That has to do with the way the rulebook is written. What is stated the last, is the rule which cancels all previous rules.