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Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6

 
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Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/4/2021 4:12:27 PM   
Mantuvec

 

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Welcome to our sixth Developer Diary.

This diary is a big one as it discusses the economy in more detail. You’ll learn what makes the Distant Worlds economy unique and how you can make sure that your worlds are prosperous and your empire is strong.



In Distant Worlds 2, your economy is divided into two parts. The first is the state-controlled economy, over which you have full control. The second is the private or civilian economy, which is everything else. As the state, while you have a great deal of influence over how your private economy is structured, you do not control it and you also have the responsibility to protect it from disruption by pirates and other threats. 

As with all areas in Distant Worlds 2, if you prefer to allow your advisors to fully run the state economy for you and focus on other areas of the game, that is possible through the automation settings. For those who enjoy some economic planning and optimization, you can choose how much you wish to intervene, right down to manually controlling all state economic decisions. 

The state controls space exploration and construction, colony ships, military ships, stations and troops, spaceports, research stations and monitoring stations. The state is also in charge of setting tax rates, building economic facilitie and adjusting bonus funding. 

The private economy controls mining ships, mining stations, freighters, passenger ships and resort bases. It pays for its own construction, maintenance and fuel costs, but also earns revenue from its activities, which it keeps (except for the portion paid to the state in construction or fuel fees or taxes). 





This process starts with your state-controlled exploration ships discovering new systems and worlds. Some of these worlds will contain valuable resources. Those resource fit into three general categories:   

- Fuel, which is needed for all your space reactors and hyperdrives to function at peak efficiency (in other words, fuel is essential to just about everything in your space-faring economy) 
- Construction Resources, which are required for your worlds to grow (they consume a variety of these on a regular basis), as well as to build or upgrade new ships, facilities and stations. Without these, nothing new really gets build and colony growth can be significantly slowed. 
- Luxury Resources, which are required for your worlds to develop, though they also can offer other significant bonuses depending on the specific resource. Some of these are quite rare, or even unique and they come with much higher bonuses. Development is the difference between a relatively primitive frontier world eking out an existence with just enough technology to survive and a thriving core world which represents the pinnacle of your space civilization. Your population alone will increase development, but luxury resources help a great deal more. 

Once you’ve found these resources, private Mining Ships (unless you’re playing as a Mercantile Guild, in which case you can also build and control these) can extract these resources for you. You may also effectively grant a license to the private economy to build a mining station at a particular location, using one of your state-controlled construction ships. These large mining stations are constructed by the state, but paid for and maintained by the private economy and are much faster at extracting resources, though they require private freighters to also pick up those resources and transport them to where they are needed. 



This combination of state exploration and granting of mining rights combined with private resource extraction and transport is the most basic level of your economy. Keeping the flow of resources moving efficiently from your mining stations to where they are needed is up to the civilian stations and ships and you can watch them go about this business, while knowing that you don’t need to spend much time worrying about it once you’ve made sure the mining stations are where you want them. 



The next most important pieces are your worlds and your spaceports. Your worlds have your population and your people will produce a certain level of productive output on their own, but without adequate Construction and Luxury resources, their potential will be greatly limited. If you supply them with abundant resources, you will find your worlds increasing much more quickly in population, development and happiness. That combination will also allow for higher tax rates and much more income from each world to flow into your state treasury. You can adjust the resource demands and the tax rate on each world if you so wish, or allow your advisors to automatically adjust these. 

Spaceports are the largest state-controlled space stations and they are typically built at your populated worlds.  From an economy standpoint, they act as hubs for your economy. The freighters and mining ships will transport resources first to your spaceports and from there they will be distributed further to the worlds or stations that need them. 



Spaceports are also the locations where most space construction happens, both for your state ships and the private economy’s ships. The private economy pays the state when it needs the use of these shipyards, which can result in additional bonus income for the state. 

Once you have a good network of mining stations, worlds and spaceports setup, the economy will generally run itself quite well barring external disruptions, either due to general threats or due to war. In those cases, your state fleets and troops may be needed to restore peace and orderly economic activity. 



You can also gain access to resources and resource trading income through diplomacy. In Distant Worlds 2, by default you do not begin with the ability to trade with another Empire, but you can sign one of three trade treaties to allow trade. Each treaty has varying degrees of resource availability balanced against tariffs charged. Restricted Trade charges the highest tariffs and makes available only the most abundant resources. Limited Trade is a balance. Free Trade allows full access to all resources without any tariffs. Commerce Centers on your Spaceports as well as trading bonuses from other sources can also increase the value of trade with other empires. 



Once you discover some particularly scenic locations in the galaxy that are near your populated worlds, the civilian economy will also be looking to build some resort bases. When built at good scenic locations with easy access to large populations, these can earn some nice additional tourism income for your economy. 



Corruption is also something that will become a larger issue as your new worlds are farther away from your capitol world  and as your worlds grow ever larger in population. This acts to reduce your taxable revenue from that world, but construction of planetary administration facilities can reduce the effects of corruption and ensure that the long arm of the law reaches across your empire. 

In Distant Worlds 2, when you have a good positive cashflow as a result of a well functioning economy, you can invest those additional funds into the usual things like building new ships and stations, or new planetary facilities, or trying to “crash research” a particularly important research project. You can also invest it into bonus funding for research and colony growth. By default, this bonus funding is automatically funded once you’ve met your empire’s needs for maintenance and other expenses. 



Without this funding, your research stations will roughly halve their output and your colony population will grow significantly more slowly. Under normal circumstances, this is not an issue, but when events occur that disrupt your economy, losing this bonus funding can result in significant penalties to your empire’s performance. If you build a robust economy and protect it well, hopefully you’ll never have to find out about that the hard way! 

If you read through all of this, let us know if you have any questions regarding the economy in Distant Worlds 2.

< Message edited by Mantuvec -- 11/4/2021 4:25:24 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/4/2021 4:40:59 PM   
zgrssd

 

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Some questions:
1. I remember it being said that Construction Ships would be part of the private economy. But now it reads like they are state economy, but can be hired by the private economy. Was that a changed or just a missunderstanding?
2. What happens if a construction ship is on a private Mission, when you order it? Does state work take precedence?
3. Will we be informed if the Private Economy has no free cosntruction ships to hire, because they are all busy doing statework?
When C-Ships were private economy they could have just build more, but now we may need some warning.
4. What about stuff like space port/planet construction queues? The Private economy might not be able to get everything produced in the spaceport that it wants too. Will we get a warning for that?
5. I can think of 3 reasons you have a shortage of a resource:
* You do not have enough production of a resouce in Mining Stations
* Somebody else keeps buying the resources in your Mining Stations before your private economy can
* There is not enough transports or mining ships to move the good (over a particulary long route or because pirates siege said route)
Will the UI show the different reasons why there might be a shortage?

(in reply to Mantuvec)
Post #: 2
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/4/2021 4:53:31 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd
1. I remember it being said that Construction Ships would be part of the private economy. But now it reads like they are state economy, but can be hired by the private economy. Was that a changed or just a missunderstanding?


That had to be a misunderstanding as they have always been State ships. The main change is how payment/maintence for mining stations is handled.

quote:

2. What happens if a construction ship is on a private Mission, when you order it? Does state work take precedence?


Construction ships have one mission at a time, but if you order additional construction through one of the new mining/research location lists, it goes into a global queue and the next free construction ship will take its mission from that queue. You are free to cancel any queued missions you don't want in the queue and you are also able to cancel the mission of any specific ship at any time and reassign it.

When it comes to spaceports though, State construction takes precedence. For example, if a spaceport has ten Freighters queued for construction and you decide you need a Destroyer, the Destroyer will move to the front of the queue at that spaceport.

Worth noting planets can also build more than they could in DW1, but ships built there are slower to build and more expensive than at spaceport facilities. Nonetheless, if your spaceport is destroyed, you can still build them on the planet and launch them up to space.

quote:

3. Will we be informed if the Private Economy has no free cosntruction ships to hire, because they are all busy doing statework?


It's very easy to see if you have free construction ships or not. If you end up with a lot more construction needed than your ships can reasonably handle, your advisors (assuming you have them turned on) will also suggest that you build more construction ships.

quote:

4. What about stuff like space port/planet construction queues? The Private economy might not be able to get everything produced in the spaceport that it wants too. Will we get a warning for that?


See above and it's very easy to review the construction queues at all your spaceports and planets now. If you see a significant backlog, you can also either build more spaceports, redesign them to add more construction yards, improve your construction tech, or try to get a leader that will speed up construction.

quote:

5. I can think of 3 reasons you have a shortage of a resource:
* You do not have enough production of a resouce in Mining Stations
* Somebody else keeps buying the resources in your Mining Stations before your private economy can
* There is not enough transports or mining ships to move the good (over a particulary long route or because pirates siege said route)
Will the UI show the different reasons why there might be a shortage?


It's easier now to see any economic issues and determine the cause for them. Most often, you either lack sufficient mining for that resource (explore more, build more mining stations and ships, improve mining tech) or you have used up what you have at a particular spaceport where you need it (wait for freighters to resupply it, or manually increase the demand for it there to encourage them, or choose build elsewhere).

When it comes to disruptions, you are alerted about attacks and there are visual indicators now at the galaxy level as well as messages to draw your attention to any hostile activity so that you can respond (or allow your fleets/advisors to respond automatically).

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to zgrssd)
Post #: 3
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/4/2021 6:04:26 PM   
WiZz

 

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A few questions.

Are resources on planets limited? Can new deposits be found on planets?
Is the colonization state feature only?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 4
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/4/2021 6:08:53 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WiZz
Are resources on planets limited? Can new deposits be found on planets?


There are events that can cause a resource to either run out or a new resource to appear, but these are relatively rare. The exploration system allows for some locations to have additional hidden resources that will only be discovered over time with more exploration.

Resources on their own will not run out, but resource abundance varies widely and is generally lower than in DW1.

quote:

Is the colonization state feature only?


Yes, at least in the initial release just as the State determines where to grant licenses for mining stations, the State also determines which worlds it allows to be settled. Of course, there can be situations where a world after settlement becomes unhappy and decides to break away and become independent, provided it can, but in general as the state you are in charge of all your worlds.

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to WiZz)
Post #: 5
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/5/2021 11:30:57 AM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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Would be interesting to know how taxes and development is interacting differently from DW Universe. In the DWU you almost always run with zero taxes and then increase them when a colony reaches close to maximum population as taxes have a huge impact on population growth.

Are the balance of the economy and growth different so taxes mainly influences migration and not actual population growth and population growth are mainly a process of resources flowing to the planet and more tied to the development of the planet?

I think this is one reason that the AI sometimes struggled a bit as it hampered its population growth by raising taxes to fast on their colonies.

I did get the impression from the diary that the mechanic had changed though.



< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 11/5/2021 11:41:42 AM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 6
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/5/2021 12:23:20 PM   
Ranbir


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Interesting, DWU had playable pirates now we have mercantile guilds!

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(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
Post #: 7
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/5/2021 1:04:33 PM   
Webbco


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Sounds great, thanks Erik. Interesting changes regarding mercantile guild. For those of us who've played DW1, please could you summarise the main ways the economy and trade differs in DW2?

(in reply to Ranbir)
Post #: 8
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/5/2021 6:40:46 PM   
OnePercent

 

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Joined: 12/12/2019
From: Australia
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One question regarding mining ships, are they still as useless as they were in the 1st game? For example, there simply wasn't enough of them manufactured to make any difference to resource shortages UNTIL I had some actual mining stations build, the private economy favors to overproduce cargo ships but doesn't respond in the same way to critical raw materials required in my experience of vanilla DW1.

(in reply to Webbco)
Post #: 9
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/5/2021 6:59:03 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
Would be interesting to know how taxes and development is interacting differently from DW Universe. In the DWU you almost always run with zero taxes and then increase them when a colony reaches close to maximum population as taxes have a huge impact on population growth.

Are the balance of the economy and growth different so taxes mainly influences migration and not actual population growth and population growth are mainly a process of resources flowing to the planet and more tied to the development of the planet?


The way taxes work was re-balanced for DW2. It's still advantageous to have taxes low for developing or unhappy colonies mainly to help with their happiness. Taxes do not influence growth to the same degree as in DW1. All colonies also have a support cost now, which increases if the colony is small and undeveloped, or unassimilated. This means that for those new frontier colonies, you generally want taxes very low and you will need to fund them with your developed colonies, but once a colony has grown to a modest size, ultra low taxes don't offer that much benefit, but raising taxes too high will also drive unhappiness and corruption with diminishing income benefits.

[quote[I think this is one reason that the AI sometimes struggled a bit as it hampered its population growth by raising taxes to fast on their colonies.

I did get the impression from the diary that the mechanic had changed though.

The AI is on board with the new system. You were right to spot this and call it out as a change which I did not really highlight.

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
Post #: 10
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/5/2021 6:59:33 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Webbco
Sounds great, thanks Erik. Interesting changes regarding mercantile guild. For those of us who've played DW1, please could you summarise the main ways the economy and trade differs in DW2?


Well, I tried to do that in the Dev Diary - is there something more than I should have covered?


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Webbco)
Post #: 11
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/5/2021 7:04:03 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OnePercent
One question regarding mining ships, are they still as useless as they were in the 1st game? For example, there simply wasn't enough of them manufactured to make any difference to resource shortages UNTIL I had some actual mining stations build, the private economy favors to overproduce cargo ships but doesn't respond in the same way to critical raw materials required in my experience of vanilla DW1.


Mining ships are more useful and smarter about filling in gaps in resource availability compared to DW1.

Note that for most government types, you still don't need a ton of them and the private sector will tend to prefer mining stations and freighters. Mining stations still mine more quickly and can store more resources.

However, mining ships now can mine where stations already exist as well as at locations where stations do not yet exist. They are also not as vulnerable to threats as the static mining stations are and they can generally travel a bit farther and hold more than in DW1. We recognized that they were not very important in DW1 and hope that you'll find them more helpful in DW2.

If you are playing as a Mercantile Guild (Haakonish or Teekans) you can of course also build more of them and tell them where to go yourself (if you wish).

Regards,

- Erik


_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC




For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to OnePercent)
Post #: 12
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/5/2021 7:21:05 PM   
Webbco


Posts: 682
Joined: 2/6/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Webbco
Sounds great, thanks Erik. Interesting changes regarding mercantile guild. For those of us who've played DW1, please could you summarise the main ways the economy and trade differs in DW2?


Well, I tried to do that in the Dev Diary - is there something more than I should have covered?


Hehe, fair enough. I agree, I suppose I was just thinking about a bullet point list of significant changes. I think that's me being lazy though

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 13
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/5/2021 8:31:24 PM   
StormingKiwi

 

Posts: 63
Joined: 2/11/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Webbco


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Webbco
Sounds great, thanks Erik. Interesting changes regarding mercantile guild. For those of us who've played DW1, please could you summarise the main ways the economy and trade differs in DW2?


Well, I tried to do that in the Dev Diary - is there something more than I should have covered?


Hehe, fair enough. I agree, I suppose I was just thinking about a bullet point list of significant changes. I think that's me being lazy though


There is the Major Changes and Improvements thread?

< Message edited by StormingKiwi -- 11/5/2021 9:30:23 PM >

(in reply to Webbco)
Post #: 14
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/6/2021 12:27:30 AM   
Galaxy227


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Joined: 12/1/2020
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Perhaps this is more of a suggestion than a question, but could Distant Worlds 2 ever have graphs, statistics, or other data tracked over the course of a game? Truthfully, all of the game could deserve more love when it comes to tracking numbers, events, or other bits of history, but with the economy specifically, there is a lot of use a player could get out of data. For example, imagine charts tracking the price of each resource over the course of the game, a map mode with saturated spots of color for current resource demands across the galaxy, or even a breakdown of each empire's trade volume at individual worlds. The last one could be especially useful, where the player could use an empire's trade volume at certain worlds as a justification to blockade said worlds. Better yet, imagine a list of worlds sorted by trade volume per each empire, allowing players to quickly digest what planets are earning the "Confederacy of Independent Systems" the most credits by trade, and then go on to blockade those worlds.

Distant Worlds 2 is such a powerful economic simulation, and I feel as though there is so much untapped potential when it comes to data & statistics. Giving the player tools to better understand the state of their galactic economy can only further enrich the experience of the game. I can't imagine coding basic graphs could be very difficult either, at least next to the complexity of DW2, but I'm no developer...

< Message edited by Galaxy227 -- 11/6/2021 12:38:37 AM >

(in reply to Mantuvec)
Post #: 15
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/6/2021 11:53:08 AM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Galaxy227

Perhaps this is more of a suggestion than a question, but could Distant Worlds 2 ever have graphs, statistics, or other data tracked over the course of a game? Truthfully, all of the game could deserve more love when it comes to tracking numbers, events, or other bits of history, but with the economy specifically, there is a lot of use a player could get out of data. For example, imagine charts tracking the price of each resource over the course of the game, a map mode with saturated spots of color for current resource demands across the galaxy, or even a breakdown of each empire's trade volume at individual worlds. The last one could be especially useful, where the player could use an empire's trade volume at certain worlds as a justification to blockade said worlds. Better yet, imagine a list of worlds sorted by trade volume per each empire, allowing players to quickly digest what planets are earning the "Confederacy of Independent Systems" the most credits by trade, and then go on to blockade those worlds.

Distant Worlds 2 is such a powerful economic simulation, and I feel as though there is so much untapped potential when it comes to data & statistics. Giving the player tools to better understand the state of their galactic economy can only further enrich the experience of the game. I can't imagine coding basic graphs could be very difficult either, at least next to the complexity of DW2, but I'm no developer...


This I think would be very interesting as it would shape your strategical planning allot. It could also be used by the AI for strategic planning as well as the player so a double edged sword in that regard. ;)

But having more holistic knowledge about the galaxy's economy, trade and resources would be very useful.

Knowledge about other empires economy should be based on trade, diplomacy and intelligence.

< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 11/6/2021 12:00:05 PM >

(in reply to Galaxy227)
Post #: 16
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/6/2021 12:06:23 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

Posts: 336
Joined: 3/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB
Would be interesting to know how taxes and development is interacting differently from DW Universe. In the DWU you almost always run with zero taxes and then increase them when a colony reaches close to maximum population as taxes have a huge impact on population growth.

Are the balance of the economy and growth different so taxes mainly influences migration and not actual population growth and population growth are mainly a process of resources flowing to the planet and more tied to the development of the planet?


The way taxes work was re-balanced for DW2. It's still advantageous to have taxes low for developing or unhappy colonies mainly to help with their happiness. Taxes do not influence growth to the same degree as in DW1. All colonies also have a support cost now, which increases if the colony is small and undeveloped, or unassimilated. This means that for those new frontier colonies, you generally want taxes very low and you will need to fund them with your developed colonies, but once a colony has grown to a modest size, ultra low taxes don't offer that much benefit, but raising taxes too high will also drive unhappiness and corruption with diminishing income benefits.

[quote[I think this is one reason that the AI sometimes struggled a bit as it hampered its population growth by raising taxes to fast on their colonies.

I did get the impression from the diary that the mechanic had changed though.

The AI is on board with the new system. You were right to spot this and call it out as a change which I did not really highlight.

Regards,

- Erik



This sounds really great... I like systems that have trade offs between different options so that decisions are not lopsided most of the time. Sounds at least as there are some options for development even if obviously there most of the time will be a common way to do things as long as everything is stable and well supplied.

Having low taxes on starting colonies seems like a realistic thing that one would do and then raise taxes as colonies grow. It also is interesting if taxes are somehow tied to corruption, so if you raise the taxes too high on colonies you loose overall income and people will start to get upset. Sounds like the old colonial problem in 16-17th century Earth which seems fitting in an interstellar settings too.


< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 11/8/2021 7:11:55 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 17
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/6/2021 2:39:35 PM   
Hazard151

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
Construction ships have one mission at a time, but if you order additional construction through one of the new mining/research location lists, it goes into a global queue and the next free construction ship will take its mission from that queue. You are free to cancel any queued missions you don't want in the queue and you are also able to cancel the mission of any specific ship at any time and reassign it.


Oh, there is a global construction queue now?

Excellent, if I have a surplus of construction ships I no longer need to manually pick the closest one.
On the other hand, still the risk of having construction ships zipping around the empire wasting fuel and time because the nearest available construction ship at the time happens to be on the other side of the realm.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
It's very easy to see if you have free construction ships or not. If you end up with a lot more construction needed than your ships can reasonably handle, your advisors (assuming you have them turned on) will also suggest that you build more construction ships.


Can we see the queue directly, then?


Also, will we have a smarter economy advisor?
Because sure, having a shortage of construction materials is really annoying during a major construction wave, but if my economy is crashing because I am running out of fuel I kinda want to have fuel mining stations take priority.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 18
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/6/2021 6:57:58 PM   
PlacidDragon

 

Posts: 117
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From: Norway
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Construction ships have one mission at a time, but if you order additional construction through one of the new mining/research location lists, it goes into a global queue and the next free construction ship will take its mission from that queue.

That sounds potentially troubling (flashbacks from other games with this issue) :)

Say that you have either a large sprawling empire, or an empire with multiple locations (starting location in the low left corner, and you colonize a couple of planets in the middle of the map because you have to have those rare resources). Will the construction ship just uncritically take the "job thats first on the list", although that would also mean 6 months of travel time to get there, or does it also consider distance ?

Edit : Upon more thorough reading, what Hazard151 said :D

< Message edited by PlacidDragon -- 11/6/2021 7:03:00 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 19
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/8/2021 11:25:05 AM   
Arcurus

 

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I hope the AI trading bug from DW1 is fixed through which you got tons more money then through the actual economy.

Like making trade sanctions for tons of credits, then lifting then after a while then doing it again for tons of credits...


(in reply to PlacidDragon)
Post #: 20
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/8/2021 6:01:07 PM   
ASHBERY76


Posts: 2136
Joined: 10/10/2001
From: England
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So it's basically DW1 with new UI.

My only issue is apart from fuel most resources mattered less mid game onwards in DW1.You sort of forgot about the economy baring war.Pirates never really caused any major issues to your economy.You just wiped them out with a few destroyers.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/8/2021 7:18:49 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ASHBERY76

So it's basically DW1 with new UI.

My only issue is apart from fuel most resources mattered less mid game onwards in DW1.You sort of forgot about the economy baring war.Pirates never really caused any major issues to your economy.You just wiped them out with a few destroyers.


If it is balanced correctly then war and military assets will detract from civilian growth. There should not be any real resource abundance as it should all go into the civilian if allowed to so it can develop and prosper that way.

When you choose to build and tax it should always be at the expense of the civilian development in some form. The choice should be to have the civilian side loose efficiency or be susceptible to outside military force. As such the military is to be seen as a necessary evil or as a means to subdue an enemy or even conquer new lands.

(in reply to ASHBERY76)
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RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/12/2021 10:31:54 AM   
StormingKiwi

 

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Do homeworlds still dominate Empire GDP throughout most of the game's timespan?

I always found this a bit frustrating, from the perspective that homeworld invasions had better cost-benefit ratios than building your own colonies naturally.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
Post #: 23
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/12/2021 5:51:12 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi

Do homeworlds still dominate Empire GDP throughout most of the game's timespan?

I always found this a bit frustrating, from the perspective that homeworld invasions had better cost-benefit ratios than building your own colonies naturally.


I don't think there is a problem with home worlds being the economic centre of an empire for a long time, the issue is generally that you can invade and take over en enemy home world with enough development left to be an economically viable option. I think this is an issue with most games of this nature.

In my opinion the economic destruction should be much worse the more developed a planet is. So... in essence a small outlying colony should be easier to take over with only small damage to infrastructure than a home world that should require enormous resources to take over, especially in any state where you can use it afterwards.

(in reply to StormingKiwi)
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RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/12/2021 11:49:55 PM   
zgrssd

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB


quote:

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi

Do homeworlds still dominate Empire GDP throughout most of the game's timespan?

I always found this a bit frustrating, from the perspective that homeworld invasions had better cost-benefit ratios than building your own colonies naturally.


I don't think there is a problem with home worlds being the economic centre of an empire for a long time, the issue is generally that you can invade and take over en enemy home world with enough development left to be an economically viable option. I think this is an issue with most games of this nature.

In my opinion the economic destruction should be much worse the more developed a planet is. So... in essence a small outlying colony should be easier to take over with only small damage to infrastructure than a home world that should require enormous resources to take over, especially in any state where you can use it afterwards.

This reminds me of something. It might actually have been in DW1, but I am not sure:
Planets develop to 100% at the normal speed, but they do not stop there.
But every percent past 100% takes exponentially longer to develop.
A home planet had those millennia of additional development, putting it at like 150-200% at the game start.
A colony that existed for a realy long time can approach it.
However this extra development is also very easily lost to combat, bombardment, etc.
As a result, a home planet would not be worth nearly as much to conquer as it is to the original owner.

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
Post #: 25
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/13/2021 2:18:59 AM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: zgrssd


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB


quote:

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi

Do homeworlds still dominate Empire GDP throughout most of the game's timespan?

I always found this a bit frustrating, from the perspective that homeworld invasions had better cost-benefit ratios than building your own colonies naturally.


I don't think there is a problem with home worlds being the economic centre of an empire for a long time, the issue is generally that you can invade and take over en enemy home world with enough development left to be an economically viable option. I think this is an issue with most games of this nature.

In my opinion the economic destruction should be much worse the more developed a planet is. So... in essence a small outlying colony should be easier to take over with only small damage to infrastructure than a home world that should require enormous resources to take over, especially in any state where you can use it afterwards.

This reminds me of something. It might actually have been in DW1, but I am not sure:
Planets develop to 100% at the normal speed, but they do not stop there.
But every percent past 100% takes exponentially longer to develop.
A home planet had those millennia of additional development, putting it at like 150-200% at the game start.
A colony that existed for a realy long time can approach it.
However this extra development is also very easily lost to combat, bombardment, etc.
As a result, a home planet would not be worth nearly as much to conquer as it is to the original owner.


In addition to this the loss of civilian life should probably also be much greater in percent the larger it is in addition to the loss of development. Future weapons are pretty devastating and if the world is defended the devastation will probably be quite large.

Unless a world is surrendered without a fight the damage should be substantial for planets such as home worlds.

If I know humanity correctly we would probably see our world nearly destroyed before we surrendered it to any alien species.

(in reply to zgrssd)
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RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/14/2021 6:06:33 AM   
StormingKiwi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB



I don't think there is a problem with home worlds being the economic centre of an empire for a long time, the issue is generally that you can invade and take over en enemy home world with enough development left to be an economically viable option. I think this is an issue with most games of this nature.

In my opinion the economic destruction should be much worse the more developed a planet is. So... in essence a small outlying colony should be easier to take over with only small damage to infrastructure than a home world that should require enormous resources to take over, especially in any state where you can use it afterwards.

If homeworlds are effectively destroyed by invasion, that exacerbates the problem I was identifying - that the best way to win the game is to knock out the homeworld because that removes the other empire from contention, and 'infrastructure damage' when wars are waged makes the problem worse, not better. The original owner loses their homeworld twice, effectively. Even if they recapture it, they will never recover... But that's a military and war discussion, not an economic discussion.

The issue definitely is that homeworlds are the vast proportion of an empire's economy throughout the whole practical timescale of the game, however. It's a question of balance - when you have one homeworld which is 90% of your GDP, and 19 colonies that combined makeup 10%, what was the point of establishing those colonies?

(in reply to Jorgen_CAB)
Post #: 27
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/14/2021 12:25:23 PM   
Ranbir


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Those colonies probably have access to resources that need to get shipped to that home world. That's what I hope to see from how AI prioritises war objectives. Bleeding the enemy dry before taking key systems since without resources they can't supply their fleets.

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RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/14/2021 3:06:40 PM   
Jorgen_CAB

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi
If homeworlds are effectively destroyed by invasion, that exacerbates the problem I was identifying - that the best way to win the game is to knock out the homeworld because that removes the other empire from contention, and 'infrastructure damage' when wars are waged makes the problem worse, not better. The original owner loses their homeworld twice, effectively. Even if they recapture it, they will never recover... But that's a military and war discussion, not an economic discussion.

The issue definitely is that homeworlds are the vast proportion of an empire's economy throughout the whole practical timescale of the game, however. It's a question of balance - when you have one homeworld which is 90% of your GDP, and 19 colonies that combined makeup 10%, what was the point of establishing those colonies?


Well... they were not 90% of your economy in DW by mid game so I doubt they will be in this version either.

I still don't see a problem with home worlds being the more powerful economic world. It obviously is also easier to defend one point that is very important.

Colonies are good for infrastructure as you need to get the resources to that home world. The home world will not be so powerful if you can't feed it with resources from those colonies and mines.

It will always be beneficial if you have the military might to knock out a neighbor early, they are going to be extremely weak after that no matter what. The thing is... if the home world is effectively almost useless then you will at least not snowball in comparison with everyone else in economic power.
In my opinion it would be even better if it were more costly to hold hostile planets for a long time for the exact reason of the snowball effect.

If you look at history you usually se the same patterns... conquest where natural resources or specific goods is the target usually are more economically viable than subduing a large civilization. We see this over and over from history, it probably would be similar in the space age as well that has allot of similarities with 15-17th century colonization period.


< Message edited by Jorgen_CAB -- 11/14/2021 3:30:03 PM >

(in reply to StormingKiwi)
Post #: 29
RE: Distant Worlds 2 - Dev Diary #6 - 11/14/2021 10:26:44 PM   
zgrssd

 

Posts: 3385
Joined: 6/9/2020
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StormingKiwi


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jorgen_CAB



I don't think there is a problem with home worlds being the economic centre of an empire for a long time, the issue is generally that you can invade and take over en enemy home world with enough development left to be an economically viable option. I think this is an issue with most games of this nature.

In my opinion the economic destruction should be much worse the more developed a planet is. So... in essence a small outlying colony should be easier to take over with only small damage to infrastructure than a home world that should require enormous resources to take over, especially in any state where you can use it afterwards.

If homeworlds are effectively destroyed by invasion, that exacerbates the problem I was identifying - that the best way to win the game is to knock out the homeworld because that removes the other empire from contention, and 'infrastructure damage' when wars are waged makes the problem worse, not better. The original owner loses their homeworld twice, effectively. Even if they recapture it, they will never recover... But that's a military and war discussion, not an economic discussion.

The issue definitely is that homeworlds are the vast proportion of an empire's economy throughout the whole practical timescale of the game, however. It's a question of balance - when you have one homeworld which is 90% of your GDP, and 19 colonies that combined makeup 10%, what was the point of establishing those colonies?

Why did you spam 19(!) colonies? Get one colony, then work to make it profitable before you go grabbing more stuff.

A very early introduction talked at lenght about how colony spamming is not the way to victory.

(in reply to StormingKiwi)
Post #: 30
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