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RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 11:13:42 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		MarkShot,

Welcome to the madness.

While I thoroughly enjoyed my forays, including the playtesting, into the Panther games tactical game engine, I have always had a soft spot for grand strategic mega games.

This is, by far and away, the absolute king of grand strategic mega games.

Have been hooked on this game engine since the Uncommon Valor days and WITPAE has been my go to game since its release in '09.
It gets 95% of my wargaming time allocations.

The biggest disappointment I have with WITE2 is how droll and unengaging the air game is.
Having what are frankly little better than cheesy animations of planes and ships lined up for combat and making passes at each other makes SOOOOO much difference in the way of making the combat execution actually engaging for the player that it is incredible GG failed to understand how much better it makes his games. It is a crying shame he overlooked the opportunity to upgrade the WITE engine by adding such a feature. It is far more engaging to actually see the guns blazing on the P47 than to simply be fed a line of text that the P47 is attacking.

The biggest challenge many newbies face with this game engine is the 'what to do syndrome'. Most experienced players have developed a routine of how they move around the map reviewing conditions and issuing orders. Establishing some sort of regimentation for orders issuance is a strong starting point.

Will do my best to contribute answers to your questions as you bring them up, but you are already well along the way in getting guidance from the contributing vets on this forum.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 31
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 12:08:14 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

MarkShot,

Welcome to the madness.

While I thoroughly enjoyed my forays, including the playtesting, into the Panther games tactical game engine, I have always had a soft spot for grand strategic mega games.

This is, by far and away, the absolute king of grand strategic mega games.

Have been hooked on this game engine since the Uncommon Valor days and WITPAE has been my go to game since its release in '09.
It gets 95% of my wargaming time allocations.

The biggest disappointment I have with WITE2 is how droll and unengaging the air game is.
Having what are frankly little better than cheesy animations of planes and ships lined up for combat and making passes at each other makes SOOOOO much difference in the way of making the combat execution actually engaging for the player that it is incredible GG failed to understand how much better it makes his games. It is a crying shame he overlooked the opportunity to upgrade the WITE engine by adding such a feature. It is far more engaging to actually see the guns blazing on the P47 than to simply be fed a line of text that the P47 is attacking.

The biggest challenge many newbies face with this game engine is the 'what to do syndrome'. Most experienced players have developed a routine of how they move around the map reviewing conditions and issuing orders. Establishing some sort of regimentation for orders issuance is a strong starting point.

Will do my best to contribute answers to your questions as you bring them up, but you are already well along the way in getting guidance from the contributing vets on this forum.


Not any more he isn't.

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 32
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 12:49:45 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Thanks, Hans.

I remember you from the Panther days. Dave is getting close on the current patch.

I am okay with WITW and WITE-2 2D UI. I play MIUS and CM to get down to ground level.

_____________________________

(於 11/13/21 台北，台灣，中國退休)

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 33
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 3:21:39 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

MarkShot,

Welcome to the madness.

While I thoroughly enjoyed my forays, including the playtesting, into the Panther games tactical game engine, I have always had a soft spot for grand strategic mega games.

This is, by far and away, the absolute king of grand strategic mega games.

Have been hooked on this game engine since the Uncommon Valor days and WITPAE has been my go to game since its release in '09.
It gets 95% of my wargaming time allocations.

The biggest disappointment I have with WITE2 is how droll and unengaging the air game is.
Having what are frankly little better than cheesy animations of planes and ships lined up for combat and making passes at each other makes SOOOOO much difference in the way of making the combat execution actually engaging for the player that it is incredible GG failed to understand how much better it makes his games. It is a crying shame he overlooked the opportunity to upgrade the WITE engine by adding such a feature. It is far more engaging to actually see the guns blazing on the P47 than to simply be fed a line of text that the P47 is attacking.

The biggest challenge many newbies face with this game engine is the 'what to do syndrome'. Most experienced players have developed a routine of how they move around the map reviewing conditions and issuing orders. Establishing some sort of regimentation for orders issuance is a strong starting point.

Will do my best to contribute answers to your questions as you bring them up, but you are already well along the way in getting guidance from the contributing vets on this forum.

Like Hans, I have been hooked on this game engine since Uncommon Valor. It is a maddening game of crazy scale, but all other wargames pale in comparison. It is funny, but I used to think Uncommon Valor was overwhelming, yet it represented just a single theater.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 34
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 3:53:48 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		I just finished watching the Dojo video where he talks about using the Kull spreadsheet for 12/8.

Yes, 5,000 seems like a lot ships to organize. The other games, the whole OOB & TOE are ready at the start for you.

But I will probably begin with smaller scenarios to learn the ropes.

_____________________________

(於 11/13/21 台北，台灣，中國退休)

(in reply to Wirraway_Ace)
Post #: 35
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 4:37:02 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Oh, everything is ready at the start.

Ready for you to organize it in any way you see fit.

One thing to be aware when playing Allies is that most of the at start cargo and troop transport shipping is scattered to the four winds. One very big task is getting it all headed to supply, fuel and troop distribution hubs.

While doing this, also be aware that many xAKs can be Converted into other extremely valuable ship types and they, and all reinforcement xAKs, should be examined for this purpose before they get tied up in transport task forces.

Lots and lots of relatively hidden nuances that steepens the learning curve. Like the fact that Allied ship production is basically hidden from the player, but is taking place IN the ports where ship reinforcements arrive on the West Coast. A lax defense of these can, and has, led to an enterprising Japanese player completely destroying 70% of the American CVE production for the entire war by taking the base which destroys the production.

Don't leave Portland defended by anything less than a full division.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 36
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 5:13:38 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Oh, everything is ready at the start.

Ready for you to organize it in any way you see fit.

One thing to be aware when playing Allies is that most of the at start cargo and troop transport shipping is scattered to the four winds. One very big task is getting it all headed to supply, fuel and troop distribution hubs.

While doing this, also be aware that many xAKs can be Converted into other extremely valuable ship types and they, and all reinforcement xAKs, should be examined for this purpose before they get tied up in transport task forces.

Lots and lots of relatively hidden nuances that steepens the learning curve. Like the fact that Allied ship production is basically hidden from the player, but is taking place IN the ports where ship reinforcements arrive on the West Coast. A lax defense of these can, and has, led to an enterprising Japanese player completely destroying 70% of the American CVE production for the entire war by taking the base which destroys the production.

Don't leave Portland defended by anything less than a full division.


Darn, you should have let him learn against a human player . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 37
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 6:04:25 PM   
rustysi


Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred


quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

quote:

The introduced bugs on the other hand simply cannot be avoided irrespective of how careful the player is. They structurally neuter an important gameplay design feature.

Alfred


Could you please explain what are these bugs?


The biggest is the no naval support at SPS 0 port.

Flick through this thread as a refresher.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4820039&mpage=1&key=�

The AKE issue highlighted by GetAssist in separate threads is also significant and shows the repenishment bug quashing was not as successful as so many believe it to be. All up not surprising as these betas did not undergo the usual Henderson Field Design oversight.

Alfred


Thanks. Yeah, I knew of ports, and the link reminded me of the rest. I understand your thinking, but these things don't really bother me. Although it does change the game, especially the SPS-0 ports.


_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Alfred)
Post #: 38
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 8:44:41 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		A few points:

1) There are two kinds of AI in this game, so don't confuse them:
- The first is the hard code (the tactical AI) which the computer opponent uses for things like performing search, deciding when and where to launch air attacks, evaluating whether to move into a neighboring hex to attack an enemy unit, land movement of supply, etc.
- The second is the "scripted AI" (the strategic AI) which gathers units and sends them off on a variety of missions, generally in support of the historical Japanese expansion.

The first of these is built-in and can't be altered. The second is a script, not an AI in the sense of algorithms which evaluate an opponent's moves and react to them (other than in an equally script-based way). It has been updated many times for the various "as-delivered" scenarios along with most of those in a Dev-created mod series called "DaBabes".

2) There aren't ANY user-created mods with a scripted AI tailor-made to handle all their changes. The more changes they make to the basic game, the more likely it is that the scripted AI will be unable to function, which is why ALL of them are intended for human-vs-human play. So unless you plan to start playing against humans right from the start, stay away from mods.

3) Even art and map mods need to be treated with caution, since as a new player you will be (or should be) consulting the manual a LOT and you are simply adding degree of difficulty to your learning if the illustrations in the manual don't look anything like your art-modded game.

4) You will make catastrophic errors in your initial game, and many more in those which follow. Sending your CVs to take on the Japanese while forgetting to take your air units out of training mode? Probably everyone here has done that at some point, and the results are never pretty. And there's 1000 more things that you'll only learn through trial and error. ACCORDINGLY, do not apply any of the newest "Scripted AI modules", since they only have one variant to the script (unlike the originals which had as many as 20). Multiple restarts against an opponent who does EXACTLY the same thing, every new game, is not what I call "fun". The Patch 07 AI updates from 2012 are the "happy medium" for new players. Lots of variants and lots of database fixes. When you are FINALLY ready to take on a full campaign, then and ONLY then should you update to the 2021 AI patches.

5) With many games, the devs left them in very poor shape and you need user-created mods to fix all the bugs. That is NOT the case with AE. The base game was updated well into 2016 by one of the programmers, so the really nasty bugs are long gone, and most of those which remain are barely noticeable. So you aren't missing anything if you stick with basic game.

6) Play as the Allies. The attrition rate for new players who *think* they can handle Japan is probably in the high 90s. I'll spare you the details, but you are simply asking for trouble if you go that route.

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 39
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 10:41:30 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Kull,

Thank you very much for explaining the basic architecture of the game and its relation to the patches.

I have no intention to PBEM. So, I will follow your advice to the letter.

I’ve purchased 3 GG games and love the logistics. For every other game, it is tacked on as an after thought to combat. Not very realistic.

If you design a robot, the first consideration is your power source.

If you design a system, the first consideration is the network.

Thanks very much!

_____________________________

(於 11/13/21 台北，台灣，中國退休)

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 40
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/12/2021 11:28:40 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		The first thing for any job is to decide what is needed to be done, not the power source.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 41
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/13/2021 12:00:42 AM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		No. Most robotic systems are limited by rechargeable batteries. The size, weight, charging, load, and cycle time of the power supply will determine what can be built. You will find that in any intro class on robotics.

GG layered his design very well and realistically by starting with logistics. Kull’s work contributes greatly to the focus on logistics which will drive the war effort.

Sun Tzu covered the basics a long time ago.

_____________________________

(於 11/13/21 台北，台灣，中國退休)

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 42
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/13/2021 11:39:26 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		What you want the robot to do, its capabilities must be determined. You will not design a robot to weld cars and expect it to be able to pick cherries no matter what the energy source is nor the capacity of the energy source to provide that energy.

When you design a system, you first need to determine what you want the system to do. If you want to write something in zero gravity, you do not need to spend a million or more dollars to design and build a pen that will do that which is what NASA from the USA did, you send a pencil like the Soviets did.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 11/13/2021 11:53:21 AM >

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 43
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/13/2021 7:21:57 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

A few points:


2) There aren't ANY user-created mods with a scripted AI tailor-made to handle all their changes. The more changes they make to the basic game, the more likely it is that the scripted AI will be unable to function, which is why ALL of them are intended for human-vs-human play. So unless you plan to start playing against humans right from the start, stay away from mods.




Kull,

Your statement is deceptive and misleading. No offense meant.

While there or no user-created mods with modified AI scripts, there are quite a few dev-created mods with modified AI scripts.

Any of the AndyMac created Ironman scenarios for play as either side are very viable for solo play.

I have also found thus far (mid June '43) that IanR's Long Road to Tokyo, which seems to be a build on AndyMac's scen #40 (which is AndyMac's Babes based Ironman scenario) continues to be quite viable.

MarkShot,

My point is don't discount mods out of hand, but you might want to focus on stock scenarios until you get a handle on the game.


_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 44
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/13/2021 7:26:22 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

No. Most robotic systems are limited by rechargeable batteries. The size, weight, charging, load, and cycle time of the power supply will determine what can be built. You will find that in any intro class on robotics.

GG layered his design very well and realistically by starting with logistics. Kull’s work contributes greatly to the focus on logistics which will drive the war effort.

Sun Tzu covered the basics a long time ago.



On that note,

Most players don't use the AutoConvoy system.

The more popular method of automating supply, fuel, resource and oil transport is by using the CS or Continuous Supply Task Force setting.

Don't have opportunity to illustrate it right now, but it is accessed in the TF interface by toggling yellow text between Player/Computer/Continuous Supply TF for the Control Setting.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 45
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/14/2021 7:00:15 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter


quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

No. Most robotic systems are limited by rechargeable batteries. The size, weight, charging, load, and cycle time of the power supply will determine what can be built. You will find that in any intro class on robotics.

GG layered his design very well and realistically by starting with logistics. Kull’s work contributes greatly to the focus on logistics which will drive the war effort.

Sun Tzu covered the basics a long time ago.



On that note,

Most players don't use the AutoConvoy system.

The more popular method of automating supply, fuel, resource and oil transport is by using the CS or Continuous Supply Task Force setting.

Don't have opportunity to illustrate it right now, but it is accessed in the TF interface by toggling yellow text between Player/Computer/Continuous Supply TF for the Control Setting.

It's simple enough to describe:
1. Set up a convoy at the source port that you want to draw supply/resources/fuel/oil/from. Use appropriate ships for the convoy type and match them fairly closely by speed and individual cargo capacities (so you don't have a bunch of ships waiting around for the biggest ship to finish loading/unloading).

2. Set the destination you are hauling to. Then check if the range is a problem or not (the hex count for the return trip at the upper left of the TF screen will show red).

3. If needed, in the Routing screen, designate a waypoint at an en-route port that has enough fuel. At that waypoint, set fueling orders to "tactical" or "minimal".

4. While you are in the Routing Screen, decide if you want to specify Direct or Coastal Routing instead of Standard Routing and consider if you want to change the Threat Level Tolerance. Usually it is just left at "Normal".

5. Set the Fueling order on the main TF screen to Minimal or Tactical or Do Not Refuel. You don't want to fuel up at a remote port if your origin port has plenty of fuel, and, CS convoys will automatically fully refuel when they return to home port regardless of the TF refueling instruction.

6. Make sure your most skilled ship captain is the TF commander by adding his ship to the TF last.

7. Now that the orders are complete, click on the yellow hypertext for "Player Controlled" and the TF will show "CS Convoy". It will operate continuously, loading the same load and delivering to the same place until you change it or it suffers catastrophic damage and disbands for repairs.

A suggestion too - do not make your CS convoy larger than 10 ships. Larger convoys are much more prone to collisions.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 46
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 4:05:25 AM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Kull,

Your statement is deceptive and misleading. No offense meant.

While there or no user-created mods with modified AI scripts, there are quite a few dev-created mods with modified AI scripts.


This is "deceptive and misleading"?

quote:

The second is a script, not an AI in the sense of algorithms which evaluate an opponent's moves and react to them (other than in an equally script-based way). It has been updated many times for the various "as-delivered" scenarios along with most of those in a Dev-created mod series called "DaBabes".

2) There aren't ANY user-created mods with a scripted AI tailor-made to handle all their changes.


You just repeated - almost verbatim - EXACTLY what I said.

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 47
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 9:59:30 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		Hans, I agree with Kull - for example Andymac's ironman scripts are designed specifically for scenario 10 in its three levels of nastiness - meaning it is an official scenario.

I don't think he was referring to that as a "user created mod".

< Message edited by Ian R -- 11/15/2021 10:00:03 AM >

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 48
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 1:00:51 PM   
Alpha77

 

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Your statement is "deceptive and misleading". "No offense" meant.



Find the error ?

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 49
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 1:34:10 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Your statement is deceptive and misleading. No offense meant.


Let me make a suggestion here. Don't start with an offensive statement if you don't mean to create offense. Misleading could be neutral, but deceptive is a very strong word. You could simply state the following:

"To the best of my knowledge, your statement is incorrect." etc. and then provide your information. No need for "No offense meant" then.

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 50
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 3:13:16 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Erik,

Tired of being harassed by Matrix staff.

I endeavor to use nothing but strong words.
Snowflakes should beware.

To those picking nits, I'll pick a few more.

My definition of a stock scenario are those that are on the CD shipped to me by Matrix. Everything that followed is a modded scenario.

< Message edited by HansBolter -- 11/15/2021 3:14:55 PM >

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 51
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 3:59:44 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Tired of being harassed by Matrix staff.
I endeavor to use nothing but strong words.
Snowflakes should beware.


I think your definition of harassment and mine are quite different.

You can use whatever words you like, _as long as_ you follow the forum rules on civil discussion.

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 52
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 4:11:30 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Tired of being harassed by Matrix staff.
I endeavor to use nothing but strong words.
Snowflakes should beware.


I think your definition of harassment and mine are quite different.

You can use whatever words you like, _as long as_ you follow the forum rules on civil discussion.

Regards,

- Erik





Would refer you to my recent posting history on the WITE2 forum for a look at said harassment.

As you obviously gleanedfrom my last response I took considerable exception with your presumption to the right to lecture me.

Ban me for breaking the rules if I do, but kindly keep your advice to yourself.

Add me to the list of forum regulars and dedicated customers you have succeeded in pissing off with your treatment of Alfred.

You have succeeded in causing the rare astronomical alignment necessary for me and MM to actually agree on something. BRAVO.

_____________________________

Hans


(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 53
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 4:35:18 PM   
stretch

 

Posts: 636
Joined: 12/17/2001
Status: offline 		Hey Erik, just shut the forum down, it'll be easier then dealing with everyone's feelings and opinions.

(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 54
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 4:49:02 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter
Would refer you to my recent posting history on the WITE2 forum for a look at said harassment.


Feel free to PM me with those links if you believe you have actually been harassed by our staff and I will take action.

quote:

As you obviously gleaned from my last response I took considerable exception with your presumption to the right to lecture me.
Ban me for breaking the rules if I do, but kindly keep your advice to yourself.
Add me to the list of forum regulars and dedicated customers you have succeeded in pissing off with your treatment of Alfred.
You have succeeded in causing the rare astronomical alignment necessary for me and MM to actually agree on something. BRAVO.


Message received - I'll refrain from further suggestions in your case. We all agree to follow the forum rules on civility when posting here. We're all adults and can take a few extra seconds to make sure we remain civil before posting. Those that can't are welcome to take their discussions elsewhere or they'll be warned and then banned.

As far as Alfred's ban, he fully earned it with his own posting behavior, both recently and going back many months. He's welcome back here if he can moderate his manners.

Regards,

- Erik


< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/15/2021 4:56:51 PM >

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Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 55
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 4:59:49 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

Erik,

Tired of being harassed by Matrix staff.

I endeavor to use nothing but strong words.
Snowflakes should beware.

To those picking nits, I'll pick a few more.

My definition of a stock scenario are those that are on the CD shipped to me by Matrix. Everything that followed is a modded scenario.

"
Sorry Hans, you don't get to "deflect" your way out of this. Let's break this down so that even the most "comprehension-challenged" can follow it. In opposition to my "deceptive and misleading" statement, you began with:

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

While there or no user-created mods with modified AI scripts


So what did I actually say?

quote:

There aren't ANY user-created mods with a scripted AI tailor-made to handle all their changes.


Hmmmm. Sounds like we are in complete agreement on that one. Maybe you point out the "deception" in the rest of your sentence?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

there are quite a few dev-created mods with modified AI scripts.


And again, here's my statement which you found so offensive:

quote:

(The script) has been updated many times for the various "as-delivered" scenarios along with most of those in a Dev-created mod series called "DaBabes".


You phrased it a bit differently, but it should be obvious we are saying EXACTLY the same thing.

So where is the "deception" Hans? What exactly is "misleading"?

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(in reply to HansBolter)
Post #: 56
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 6:23:40 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Not sure if I am guessing correctly here, but my first impression about Hans' post was that he was, without consciously stating it, thinking of the recent statements that the new scripts written for Scenario 1 have been referred to as " improved AI" by experienced players. Alfred made a recent post pointing out that the scripts do not change the game engine in any way to make a "new AI". The misuse of the terminology "AI" in relation to the game is one of Alfred's bugaboos, and he was blunt about how it was creating confusion when the term is used instead of "script". I am sure Hans saw and agreed with Alfred's analysis and perhaps shared his frustration.

So any subsequent discussion of "AI" becomes a trigger - are we really talking about complex computer analysis and output or are we just talking about some new info fed into the same game engine and producing somewhat different results? Since none of us is likely be be exact in communicating our take on an issue, I cut some slack for people seeming to disagree through misunderstanding.

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(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 57
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 6:34:39 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Well, to me "updated AI" means "new AI scripts".

Thank you, AndyMac!

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 58
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 6:42:32 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

Not sure if I am guessing correctly here, but my first impression about Hans' post was that he was, without consciously stating it, thinking of the recent statements that the new scripts written for Scenario 1 have been referred to as " improved AI" by experienced players. Alfred made a recent post pointing out that the scripts do not change the game engine in any way to make a "new AI". The misuse of the terminology "AI" in relation to the game is one of Alfred's bugaboos, and he was blunt about how it was creating confusion when the term is used instead of "script". I am sure Hans saw and agreed with Alfred's analysis and perhaps shared his frustration.

So any subsequent discussion of "AI" becomes a trigger - are we really talking about complex computer analysis and output or are we just talking about some new info fed into the same game engine and producing somewhat different results? Since none of us is likely be be exact in communicating our take on an issue, I cut some slack for people seeming to disagree through misunderstanding.


No. He makes no reference to that in his post, whereas mine EXPLICITLY refers to the difference between the two. If that's what he meant, he could have quoted that part of my post, but he did not. I want to know how he can possibly accuse me of deception (a VERY strong accusation) and then agree with me completely.

_____________________________

AE-Japan Setup

AE-Allied Setup

Japan Air-Engine Plan

(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 59
RE: Thinking about WITP-AE ... questions? - 11/15/2021 6:47:03 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I expect Hans will speak up for himself, but I given that he added the "no offense" I think at face value we should accept that he did not intend to cause offense, despite the fact that I agree that the phrase would otherwise cause offense.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 60
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