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RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/15/2021 6:36:49 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		I agree that Trugrit's idea is beautiful - the graphic he posted tells a story without getting into the clicks needed to duplicate it. I think today's young players, raised on sites that offer near instant gratification would still read something that comes across as a graphic novel.

Old timers who learned by reading and trying to follow along in the game may find this approach sort of juvenile, but it is not our young players fault they are not conditioned to learn the way we did. Gotta meet the customer where they is, not try to coax them into our way of doing things.

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Post #: 31
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/15/2021 6:49:19 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		This is where the previously mentioned videos can be quite helpful, but if errors exist in them then a guide or updated manual to allow further correction/refinement of play for those who have come to WITP-AE through the videos would be the next step. For a game as advanced as this one, you can't expect to climb the learning curve without putting in a lot of effort and some will quite because of that but it would be much better if the directions to the next summit, so to speak, were as clear as possible for new community members.

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Post #: 32
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/15/2021 7:43:30 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline 		It's hard for many of us to remember, but the "learning cliff" for this game is extraordinarily steep. Even as an experienced WitP player, for about six months I had no idea how to get started on the "Day 2" Turn of the Grand Campaign (the the genesis of the "Allied Set-up" spreadsheet, lol). And most of the smaller scenarios weren't much help because they seemed to assume a firm understanding of how to navigate the interface and handle the full array of land, air, and naval combat options. Only the Aleutians was narrow enough in scope that I could pick just one portion - naval ops - and figure out most of those requirements.

Which suggests a "path forward" here. What's might work for new players are a number of tutorial-like TINY scenarios which focus on a single aspect of the game, rather than the full spectrum of requirements. In combination with a document like the example posted by Trugrit (which points the player directly to the relevant sections of the manual), that offers a stairstep approach instead of the current "drinking from a firehose" situation.

And how would those scenarios be developed? Well, there are quite a few active modders present in the community, and if each would volunteer to create even one of these narrowly focused scenarios, they could be developed more or less in parallel, and without overwhelming one or two individuals with a giant task.

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Post #: 33
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/15/2021 9:21:47 PM   
OnWargaming


Posts: 108
Joined: 9/13/2021
From: Italy
Status: offline 		@Trugrit: I don't think the biggest obstacle is the reader but the presentation, infographics are the best way to learn lot of infos without reading tons of pages and your screen is a great example.
Of course at some point you have to be more detailed (like the Alfred's guides) but this is the second step for a newbie, the first step is learning the basic.

"Player guide…..A lot of work for very small return." Indeed, even if paid would be a labor of love anyway.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

A key goal in doing this is that if there is a single location or guide to direct new players to, then saying "Read the Fine Manual" wouldn't mean "Also read these 50 threads and 100 AARs". There's no way to really make this a small learning curve, but it can be a less confusing or scattered curve.

An updated guide such as you describe could also be included in a re-master and featured on the game launcher.

Regards,

- Erik


+1
I am putting lot of effort into learning just the basic for my upcoming campaign game as Japanese, I played a couple of months lot of years ago and I would pay good money for a updated guide about the main topics!

(in reply to Kull)
Post #: 34
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/15/2021 9:34:01 PM   
Moltrey


Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

This is where the previously mentioned videos can be quite helpful, but if errors exist in them then a guide or updated manual to allow further correction/refinement of play for those who have come to WITP-AE through the videos would be the next step. For a game as advanced as this one, you can't expect to climb the learning curve without putting in a lot of effort and some will quite because of that but it would be much better if the directions to the next summit, so to speak, were as clear as possible for new community members.


Erik:

I would just like to take a moment to say "THANKS!" to you for taking time to actively participate in WITP:AE. I have been used to seeing AndyMac around periodically, and was floored to see Andrew Brown take the map updates "bull" by the horns and both elicit community feedback and turn out multiple versions of both standard and extended maps. HUZZAH!

I must say, a year or so ago, I was afraid that very little if any direct Dev support was going to be realized on WITP:AE as it is such an old title. You can imagine my great surprise at this flurry of positive activity and commitment.

So... thanks. More than you can know I believe. There are a LOT of passionate guys here who really treasure this game. Perhaps that is why we get rather outspoken about things around here. I don't want to speak for the others, but I am impressed that you and the team are active once again.
Woot!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 35
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/15/2021 9:35:49 PM   
OnWargaming


Posts: 108
Joined: 9/13/2021
From: Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littleike

I made the forum squeeze many years ago.
I posted it under the netwargaming forum (here the link)


https://www.netwargamingitalia.net/forum/resources/?order=download_count

I see now in the download section that it has reached near 5.000 downloads
so i am glad if it has been of help for someone.

But the document is outdated and many informations could be inaccurate or even wrong.

Anyway if you think that some sort of collection could be of help for new players use it.


Can be outdated but still a great resource for new players.
Grande!!

(in reply to littleike)
Post #: 36
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/15/2021 10:18:13 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		This is a link for a new player who was advised to start with the Coral Sea campaign and then move on to the Guadalcanal campaign. He did do both several times:

My first go at this game, very enjoyable!

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4935973

That is also where I got the idea to make an "OT: Some Recipes" thread and post some recipes there.

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Post #: 37
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/15/2021 10:56:43 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline 		All the chatting over here has inspired me to reinstall this game again. Just going to start with the stock install and follow the tech support page for installation from true grit and use the sea bee thing.

Most of the original manuals should still be valid?

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Post #: 38
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/15/2021 11:02:47 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zovs

All the chatting over here has inspired me to reinstall this game again. Just going to start with the stock install and follow the tech support page for installation from true grit and use the sea bee thing.

Most of the original manuals should still be valid?


Check the patch notes . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 39
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/16/2021 4:37:11 AM   
ggeilman

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I refer people to both of those threads and suggest that they go through them but they also need to look through the patch notes.

I also refer some people to some AARs so they can read what other people do, especially if there is discussion among players as to the best course to take. But always, play the game that you want to play.

I do not refer people to any videos.

Someone had been working on a new manual but discontinued that project.


What’s the problem with Dojo’s tutorial series for this or other GG games? He weaves mechanics with strategy where you can follow along and repeat the process. Doing yourself is best. He creates excitement for the games.

He also points out great map, Sea Bee Configurator, Kulls XLS.

Even if Matrix had budget they could not buy better. And Matrix has no budget.

His LPs are a waste of time he wastes half a video on greeting his fans on twitch.

After Arumba for Paradox, he is one of the best.


As a new player with eyesight issues, I am deeply grateful for Dojo's videos and wish others would make some also. It is difficult for me to read a great deal online due to having Sjogren's. The ideas mentioned for a players guide are a great idea having been involved helping make one or two over the years for RPGs.


(in reply to MarkShot)
Post #: 40
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/16/2021 4:46:29 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
ggeilman,

I’m sorry about your eyesight issues.

If I could I would make a player guide just for you alone. Your own personal guide.

The fact is I’m just not good enough. I’m not sure there is a player who could do it all alone.
The game is that complex. It does not look like it is that complex on the surface but it is.

I just can’t go into it like I would need to. It would have lots of errors in it.

Think about the original design team at Henderson Field Designs.
They were a remarkable group, maybe a once in a lifetime group.

In humble opinion, and I have been studying the game for the last ten years, they produced
a Pacific wargame that is an Everest in Kansas. A game that is so far above any other
Pacific War strategy game that it makes my mind boggle.

Any player who does not think that has not looked at the game long enough.

No Pacific strategy game can touch it to this very day.

I’m a Navy veteran. I served on two amphibious ships and a Destroyer and with this game
it was like God reached down from heaven and said I’m going to give this old veteran
a game that will keep him happy for the rest of his life.

This magnificent design team produced a manual of around 320 pages that barely
scratches the surface of what is there. There are errors in it and it did not come close
to the reality of the game.


(in reply to ggeilman)
Post #: 41
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/16/2021 6:07:31 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I think that the errors in are more the result of the changes made by the updates than any intentional or unintentional error.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 42
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/16/2021 7:31:26 PM   
Trugrit


Posts: 947
Joined: 7/14/2014
From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I think that the errors in are more the result of the changes made by the updates than any intentional or unintentional error.


You are right

When I say errors I really mean errors of omission.
You can’t really cover this game well with any documentation.


(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 43
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/16/2021 7:41:30 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		Deleting any mention about THE TUTORIAL from the manual would be a good start.

(in reply to Trugrit)
Post #: 44
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/16/2021 7:48:40 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		If a person considered the Coral Sea scenario a tutorial and the Guadalcanal scenario a second tutorial scenario then that person would not be too wrong.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Yaab)
Post #: 45
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/16/2021 10:26:04 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If a person considered the Coral Sea scenario a tutorial and the Guadalcanal scenario a second tutorial scenario then that person would not be too wrong.

They don't meet the criteria for a tutorial because they do not explain, step-by-step, how to do things or what is happening as a consequence of settings. But a storyboard arrangement of the type of graphic pages that Trugrit posted folded into a video of the mini-scenarios would sure help a new player get a feel for the interface.

The whole idea of Strategic/Operational/Tactical plans and execution thereof is a Level 301 class that should be brought in after the player has some hands-on experience with game controls and how they affect a turn.

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Post #: 46
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/16/2021 10:27:38 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		In a lot of ways, Uncommon Valor was the real tutorial for WITP, then the smaller WITP scenarios and eventually you stepped up to the full campaign.

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 47
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 2:26:50 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In a lot of ways, Uncommon Valor was the real tutorial for WITP, then the smaller WITP scenarios and eventually you stepped up to the full campaign.


Agreed now that's a game that could really use a remaster to get it working again. I still have the CD but cannot for the life of me get it to work anymore. All kinds of monitor scale and lag issues. UV is still a great game and offers an entire 1942 campaign that WITPAE does not. WITPAE only offers Coral Sea and Guadalcanal separately. UV is what started it all for many of us. Wish I could still play it!

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 11/17/2021 2:30:57 AM >

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Post #: 48
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 4:25:39 AM   
ggeilman

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If a person considered the Coral Sea scenario a tutorial and the Guadalcanal scenario a second tutorial scenario then that person would not be too wrong.


I did Coral Sea before I started the campaign. As it is April of 42 maybe I should do Guadalcanal. I just don't want to mess up my current game.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 49
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 7:52:14 AM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline 		May I suggest that is maybe not actually necessary to create a exhaustive guide that covers every detail of the game.
It could be already enough to just ease in the entrance to the game to get people hooked on it.
After they fell in love with the game, they likely will develop some kind of self-initiative in learning the game, be that searching the forum and asking questions here, reading AARs, watching youtubers or just simply playing the game and making mistakes.
Teaching the basics of the game to bring people to the point there they fall in love with it is maybe everything that is needed. WITPAE isn't really a game where you can hold peoples hands all the time, they have to develop a self-initiative in learning it otherwise they will eventually drop out.

To ease the access to the game I would suggest that it probably already enough to update the manual so it includes the patch notes and reflects the current state of the game and create some additional small scenarios for learning and practicing diverse mechanics of the game.
The Coral Sea Scenario isn't actually a bad starting scenario though a scenario before that that teaches air combat could be helpful.
The bigger problem is probably the Guadalcanal scenario that is just too big of a step up compared to the Coral Sea.
Also the Guadalcanal scenario mainly teaches logistics and amphibious invasions, you kind of need to already know the basics of land-, air-, naval combat at that point.

This is just a train of thought I had, but I think this approach would be somewhat easier to make a reality than making a guide/documentation that covers the whole game.

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Post #: 50
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 7:59:17 AM   
Maallon


Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If a person considered the Coral Sea scenario a tutorial and the Guadalcanal scenario a second tutorial scenario then that person would not be too wrong.


I did Coral Sea before I started the campaign. As it is April of 42 maybe I should do Guadalcanal. I just don't want to mess up my current game.

If you are playing stock scenarios you can just start a new scenario without issues, just make sure you don't overwrite your saves from your current game or make a new save for your current game further down so you can't overwrite it accidentally.
Or is there another issue that you think would prevent you from starting a new scenario?

(in reply to ggeilman)
Post #: 51
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 9:53:14 AM   
tolsdorff

 

Posts: 204
Joined: 12/12/2016
Status: offline 		I remember when I started playing, I was beyond completely overwhelmed. I didn't know what to do at all.

What helped me the most at that time to get started was Sardaukar's excellent tutorial , which can be found here : https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2564541
I found it via this forum topic: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157.

Sardaukar's tutorial gave me enough information to do some useful turns and actually start playing the game. It helped me cross the first crevice of this giant crevice filled glacier.
After doing these first basic turns, the information found in the manual made a lot more sense to me, because I had this very rudimentary mental framework of doing the first couple of turns in some kind of a useful manner.

The 2nd thing that helped me above all else, was figuring out how to use Google to search for answers on this forum. Most, if not all, questions have already been asked dozens of times. And most have been answered dozens of times as well. With Google and a little perseverance, it can be found quite easily.


After playing as the allies for a couple of years, I am now trying to get a handle on the Japanese side of things.
2 resources that helped me a lot to to do the baby steps :

- Numdydar's production primer https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3329605, which helped me get some kind of basic understanding of the Japanese economy.
- Kull's spreadsheet https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3253803&mpage=1&key=� which is beyond excellent.


Neither of these 3 resources (Sardaukar, Numdydar, Kull) will give anyone a deep understanding of the game mechanics, but it will help you in the most important step: getting started in the first place.

I would also suggest installing Combat Reporter. It gives a useful overview of most of the things that happened during the turn. It can be found here https://sites.google.com/site/witpaecombatreporter/













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Post #: 52
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 11:01:25 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tolsdorff
What helped me the most at that time to get started was Sardaukar's excellent tutorial , which can be found here : https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2564541
I found it via this forum topic: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157.


Thanks, I agree - I recall that one helping a lot of folks.


_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

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Post #: 53
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 11:18:03 AM   
btd64


Posts: 9973
Joined: 1/23/2010
From: Mass. USA. now in Lancaster, OHIO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If a person considered the Coral Sea scenario a tutorial and the Guadalcanal scenario a second tutorial scenario then that person would not be too wrong.


I did Coral Sea before I started the campaign. As it is April of 42 maybe I should do Guadalcanal. I just don't want to mess up my current game.



You can start a new scenario, just use a different save slot and go back to your previous game later....GP

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Post #: 54
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 1:04:00 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

In a lot of ways, Uncommon Valor was the real tutorial for WITP, then the smaller WITP scenarios and eventually you stepped up to the full campaign.



This was the way of it for many of us.

_____________________________

Hans


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Post #: 55
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 1:43:01 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: btd64


quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman


quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

If a person considered the Coral Sea scenario a tutorial and the Guadalcanal scenario a second tutorial scenario then that person would not be too wrong.


I did Coral Sea before I started the campaign. As it is April of 42 maybe I should do Guadalcanal. I just don't want to mess up my current game.



You can start a new scenario, just use a different save slot and go back to your previous game later....GP


Or make a new folder, name it how you want to name it, then copy the saves that you want from the Save folder and paste those saves into the new folder. You can then delete or overwrite the campaign saves since you still have them elsewhere.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 56
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/17/2021 11:25:55 PM   
ggeilman

 

Posts: 107
Joined: 12/19/2017
Status: offline 		Think I will make a backup folder of all my saves just in case and then use a new save file. That way if I mess it up!

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 57
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/21/2021 3:17:09 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline 		Found this for newbies as well:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157

_____________________________


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Post #: 58
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/21/2021 4:26:48 AM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

Found this for newbies as well:

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2576157


That is one thread that I usually refer new players to.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 59
RE: Proposal for New Players - 11/23/2021 5:20:27 AM   
hpalmer

 

Posts: 23
Joined: 4/27/2020
Status: offline 		Very interesting thread. As a "young guy" (US Army vet, 35, with kid 3 due this week) I own the game, but have struggled with all the ins and outs of installation and tackling the game. I've read almost every AAR on the forum and find it deeply enjoyable to read about others exploits. The game is intimidating for both basic technical reasons as well as the sheer complexity, but that complexity also is the appeal of why I have gravitated this direction from Hearts of Iron which feels so flat in comparison. I own many Matrix titles and found WITE1 & 2 very accessible and will add that I purchased the hard copy WITE2 manual and read it cover to cover, so I don't mind digging into manuals to learn what's under the hood. I found WITW to be less accessible than the WITE titles, and now WITP:AE, which has the best AARs and a great community, still feels very inaccessible to actually get to grips with.

I'd love a remaster to incorporate more of the mod updates I read about on the forum or map changes and help me figure out why my installs dont seem to work right. I have a high end Alienware gaming laptop and this game is VERY laggy for me, I've assumed I am doing something wrong or need to patch the game manually perhaps, but candidly find it easier with my limited free time to enjoy others exploits than wrestle with solving the issues I'm experiencing. Great to see Matrix engage on a great title. I have posted a little on WITE2 that I'd love to see more of the WITP:AE air system in that game with WITE2's ground combat, the ground combat in WITP seems the hardest to understand and manage from an outsiders perspective. Thanks guys, love lurking and reading other's wisdom. Just wanted to give my .02 cents as a relative outsider looking in who has owned the game for years now without learning it.

(in reply to RangerJoe)
Post #: 60
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