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Rail Usage - 11/13/2021 4:50:36 PM

HOTEC

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When a hex with its rail usage of 30,000+, the SMP cost is 7 MP. If the hex is also subject to air interdiction level of 9 (i.e. +3 MP). Is total SMP cost of 10 MP or it capped to 7 MP.

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/14/2021 10:29:15 AM

loki100

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not sure where these numbers come from - see the SMP penalty table in the manual (38.7.7)

usage < 30k (for dual track) is cleared /6, anything >30k has a lower divisor, interdiction 'usage' is also cleared at a lower rate

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/14/2021 3:11:23 PM

HOTEC

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Table 38.7.7. appears wrong. The "/6" thing should relate to the matter of strategic movement in the player phase. In fact, I do not understand the whole paragraph. Does it mean the 5000 ton of unit moved along the dual track applying no penalty of SMP? OK. When it applies to single track, it states the higher of 4500 or 2000. Interdiction is bad thing but getting more no penalty. If it is not talking about the SMP penalty, then what do he want to tell?

The graphic refers to the maximum distance of the freight moved without interdiction. As it is seen in the table, the SMP cost is capped to 7 SMP (1 basic +6 penalty) for rail usage more than 30,000+ tons. No mention in the manual what would be the SMP cost for the presence of interdiction. Freight movement is in the logistics phase not in player phase. I got the impression everytime talking about interdiction they refer to no CPP. If the effect of interdiction applies in the logistics phase, I create depots with much shorter distance to compensate for the interdiction. Will someone offer an answer, please?

Thanks anyway.

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/14/2021 5:02:26 PM

loki100

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Table in the manual is correct, that is how usage (ie current turn freight+unit moves+previous turn/6) generates the SMP cost per hex.

The max distance any freight or unit can move is 200 hexes, ie 200 SMP/1 SMP per hex.

Think you mixing up different issues - in so far as I can understand your chart?

Interdiction has an effect by adding usage, being slower to clear and also affecting tactical movement

edit - your comment on the left is wrong, the manual is correct it is 45,000.

Basically that is the max usage that can be set to a hex - probably impossible to achieve but any usage over that is simply set aside.

edit2 - actually your whole table is wrong. It costs more railyard capacity to push freight over certain hexes, in theory freight can still reach 200 hexes despite congestion if there is sufficient rail yard capacity where it entrains - as the cost goes up more of that is used for a given distance

< Message edited by loki100 -- 11/14/2021 7:51:01 PM >

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/15/2021 7:38:07 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HOTEC

.... As it is seen in the table, the SMP cost is capped to 7 SMP (1 basic +6 penalty) for rail usage more than 30,000+ tons. No mention in the manual what would be the SMP cost for the presence of interdiction. Freight movement is in the logistics phase not in player phase. I got the impression everytime talking about interdiction they refer to no CPP. If the effect of interdiction applies in the logistics phase, I create depots with much shorter distance to compensate for the interdiction. Will someone offer an answer, please?

..

I'm afraid your understanding of the rail/freight system is fundamentally wrong, hence your table and I suspect your comments.

The system has one fixed element:

The maximum distance an element of freight can move is 200 hexes.

It has 3 variables:

Last turn's residual congestion on a given rail hex (this can be off usage or interdiction)
This turn's unit moves on a given rail hex (assuming here we are talking just about freight)
The amount of capacity to move freight

So we have variable cost/hex and variable move capacity (trains if you like which come off level 2 or larger railyards). Which matters depends on circumstances.

Now once the cost/hex >1 its not as in your table that the max distance is reduced. That is a fixed number. Its that the cost in move capacity for that hex increases. If you had limitless move capacity (trains) you could overcome any level of congestion and still move your freight 200 hexes.

Since you don't, at some stage congestion hits the ability to move freight.

Its very situational as to which constraint is the most important at any one time.

Solutions?

Intermediate depots are key, if freight can't reach the ideal target then it has somewhere to fall back to.

Equally if these depots are disconnected from the immediate task of supplying the front line formations - and set to priority 4 - they become large freight stocks that you can draw down when you need. So setting up say Minsk this way means it uses the rail move capacity (trains) drawn from 30 hexes of where it is, which does not compete with the rail move capacity feeding into the NSS, and since it won't have far to go to reach the front line depots, can readily absorb much higher congestion costs.

edit - and no none of this has any relationship to CPP so no idea why you think that could be the case

< Message edited by loki100 -- 11/15/2021 7:39:29 AM >

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/15/2021 9:30:27 AM

HOTEC

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I need your comments based on the example given in the attachment.

a) Although the rail usage is calculated as 7,015 tons, it is maxed out to 5,000 tons for dual track and 2,000 tons for single track. In other words 1 ton of freight moves through that hex is +1 SMP for its range within 5,000-9,999 in dual track.

b) If Depot 1 holds 20,000 tons of freight and Depot 2 has the capacity of 15,000 with 28 hexes apart and if Depot 1 can grasp 1.5 Railyards, the 15k of freight can be moved from Depot 1 and Deport 2 disregarding

1) Dual or Single Track doesn't matter;
2) Any level of air interdiction of doesn't matter;
3) Any number of units strategically moved through these 28 hexes doesn't matter.

28 hexes is the minimum distance of freight movement. Is my understanding correct?

c) When Depot 1 and Depot 3 are 200 hexes apart and 1 ton of freight grasps 0.0001 Railyard, it can move from Depot 1 to Depot 3. If a +3 SMP is residual between them, that freight cannot reach Depot 3 but to 196 hexes. Unless Depot 2 is located at 198 hexes from Depot 1, otherwise it is equivalent to no freight movement. It should be an operation of move-stop-grasp-move-stop from Depot 1 to 2 in 1 turn and Depot 2 to 3 in its subsequent 2nd turn. It requires 7 depots with 28 hexes apart, 7 turns with 31.5 Railyards to move 200 tons of freight to and through 200 hexes between Depot 1 and 7. Unfortunately, there are no Depot 5 and above. A flush of Depot is thus required. The distance between Berlin (NSS) to NW Leningrad is 103 hexes and to Moscow 118 hexes. They are well below 200 SMP but not Baku. It is another issue.

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/15/2021 10:41:17 AM

loki100

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Your table is wrong - it is based on a completely incorrect interpretation of how the system works.

a) its not, usage of say 7,000 is reduced /6 to a congestion of >1000 the next turn

b1) wrong, a single track rail line will add congestion faster
b2) wrong, rail interdiction hits usage in the logistics phase and is slower to clear
b3) wrong, unit moves add to congestion

28 hexes, yes

c) wrong, it can still move 200 hexes IF the railyard capacity exists to overcome the extra cost/hex

As in my post above, the bit you are getting wrong is there are 2 variables - congestion and available rail move capacity. They interact, and neither is more important than the other.

Lets take May 1942 and a realistic front line. You don't need many depots west of say Minsk and Kiev (as the Axis side), keep them at pri 0 or 1 but they have a very limited role. From their to the front you need a network of depots running from pri 2 to 4. There are plenty of AARs that show how to set this up and the benefits of keeping Minsk/Kiev/similar at pri 4 so they build up freight in preparation for an offensive or if you start to advance.

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/15/2021 3:34:31 PM

HOTEC

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At least the 28 hexes of minimum distance of freight moved is Yes. Thanks.

If both tables (22.4.3. and 38.7.7.) are correct, is it correct that the table in 22.4.3. applies to freight movement during the logistics phase and table in 38.7.7. to strategic movement of units during the player phase. If it is true, the +SMP as shown in my example above is incorrect. They are referred to the data in 22.4.3.. These 2 tables are apparently different. The congestions for dual track and single track for the freight movement are different but not applied for strategic movement of units. Distance moved for freight are doubly shorter than the unit moved. Furthermore, I could not see the color code in the logistics phase.

The accumulated rail usage of 42,087 is 5,641 + 23,648 + 12,798. 42,087 / 6 = 7,015. Air interdiction is 2,500. Thus the higher of is 7,015. For dual track the max out is 5,000. It is +1 SMP of the table in 22.4.3. If single track is applied, the max out is 2,000 which is also +1 SMP. With the maximum air interdiction level of 9, the +SMP penalty of the hex before freight movement are 0, +1 SMP for dual track and 0, +1, +2 SMP for single track. Please comment.

It is not the first time I read the "slow to clear". Once the higher of is determined, there should not have any residual.
The green and yellow rail usages seen after the air phase are used by the "civilian economy and for the wider movement of resources between cities" (Section 25.6.4.) Can it be more specific what is slow to clear.

When 45,000 / 500 = 90 was firstly seen, the Partisan Attack may be the cause because the maximum air interdiction is only up to 9. I asked to quantify the intensity of the Partisan Attack in the forums and got the answer that "interdiction points will be <10". The total is 18 (9+9). It is too far out. My curiosity pushes me to ask what is it for the remains.

"still move 200 hexes IF the railyard capacity exists to overcome the extra cost/hex" - Can it be done in the same turn without intermediate Depot?

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/15/2021 3:48:27 PM

loki100

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I'm sorry but you are still getting this fundamentally wrong

so lets try to unpick the bits that are incorrect:

a) congestion charges apply to unit moves as well as to freight moves - test it. Send 2 Soviet Rifle Corps over the same train line, one will get further as the second one faces a higher congestion cost. The combination of unit move, freight move and interdiction sets the baseline for the next turn.
b) I do not understand what you mean with "max out is 5,000". For dual track rails usage stops getting added at 45k simply as that is above anything feasible. Usage under 5k dual rail incurs no penalty if that is what you mean?
c) "It is not the first time I read the "slow to clear", Once the higher of is determined, there should not have any residual." - I guess I'm trying to explain to you how it works. If you think it should work in a different way that is fine but really a matter to be posted in the suggestions forum so that readers don't get confused?
d) sticking to dual track, usage <30k clears using /6 divisor, usage between 30-45k uses a lower number (I think its 4 and is in the Living Manual, usage incurred by interdiction clears at a lower speed as that reflects damage as well as just too many trains trying to pass a given point
e) I think you are mixing up the impact of partisan attacks on removing admin movement from their effect on rail movement
f) yes, an element of freight entrains, moves as far as it can (to the 200 limit) and detrains at a suitable depot. It doesn't multiply jump onto a new train. It can only make one such move in a given logistics phase.

The bit I think you are missing is there are 2 variables. Congestion and railyard capacity, you need to understand the interaction between the 2.

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/16/2021 9:56:53 AM

heymann2323

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Nice information

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/17/2021 6:40:02 AM

HOTEC

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A test setup and the results of a unit kept passing through the same hex are shown in attachment 1 and 2, respectively. The accumulated rail usage that is capped at 32500 disregarding the number of units passing through. The SMP penalty cost is +3. It seems not increase in proportion with the range of rail usage as shown in the table. Please comment.

Notwithstanding the above, the rail usage at that hex is 32500. If there is 1 ton of freight passing through that hex, can you tell me what is the SMP penalty imposed upon this freight (i.e. 0 or +6)?

As shown in attachment 3, I see a lot of these numbers, 5416 and 10833, for the rail usage at the beginning of the ground movement phase. Without the number of 32500, it is too good to be true that they are 5416 x 2 = 10833, 2 times related. In consideration with the number of 32500, 5416 is 32500/6 and 10833 is 32500/3. There is the /6 you are talking and the manual as well.

As quoted below from the manual, 5416 instead of 2000 is found. Please confirm whether the last sentence of the quote is outdated. Not mentioned in the manual, for what cause it to be 10833. Any advice on how to lower the value.

(Section 22.4.3.)
During each logistics phase, accumulated friendly rail line usage in each hex is reduced to the higher of either current rail usage divided by six or the enemy air interdiction value (the actual value of this is shown in a hex pop-up) times 500, with the latter being maxed out at 45,000 tons of rail line usage. In cases where there is no enemy air interdiction, at the start of the movement phase the max rail line usage will be 5,000 tons (for a dual track line and 2,000 for a single track line).

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/17/2021 6:40:39 AM

HOTEC

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Attachment 2

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/17/2021 6:41:10 AM

HOTEC

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Attachment 3

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/17/2021 9:02:58 AM

loki100

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First, note that there is a random element to the placement of usage, as is usual in WiTE2 these things are rarely linear

quote:

ORIGINAL: HOTEC

..... If there is 1 ton of freight passing through that hex, can you tell me what is the SMP penalty imposed upon this freight (i.e. 0 or +6)?

Since the freight would have moved 'first' ie in the last logistics phase, it would have faced the SMP penalty that applied after last turns unit and freight moves were taken into account. If those were zero, then the SMP penalty is of course zero

quote:

ORIGINAL: HOTEC

.... Any advice on how to lower the value.

make less use of that particular rail line?

quote:

ORIGINAL: HOTEC

(Section 22.4.3.)
During each logistics phase, accumulated friendly rail line usage in each hex is reduced to the higher of either current rail usage divided by six or the enemy air interdiction value (the actual value of this is shown in a hex pop-up) times 500, with the latter being maxed out at 45,000 tons of rail line usage. In cases where there is no enemy air interdiction, at the start of the movement phase the max rail line usage will be 5,000 tons (for a dual track line and 2,000 for a single track line).
....

this was corrected in the living manual, usage 30k-45k is cleared at a lower rate, I don't have access at the moment but you can look it up

so no, the max retained usage is not 5k, it can be higher

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/17/2021 11:44:03 AM

MarkShot

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You know what I find most comforting about Dojo's YouTube tutorials?

'Okay, now double rail 30,000; and single 12,000 ... hey, but the important point is you need to move freight which transmutes into other things. SERIOUSLY, you can really just play the game without understanding all these details. Just know green circles good; red circles bad; green rail good; red rail bad'

What Dojo does is make you feel that even though you flunked Algebra, you can still have a lot of fun! He's right too.

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RE: Rail Usage - 11/17/2021 11:50:17 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

You know what I find most comforting about Dojo's YouTube tutorials?

'Okay, now double rail 30,000; and single 12,000 ... hey, but the important point is you need to move freight which transmutes into other things. SERIOUSLY, you can really just play the game without understanding all these details. Just know green circles good; red circles bad; green rail good; red rail bad'

What Dojo does is make you feel that even though you flunked Algebra, you can still have a lot of fun! He's right too.

basically yes, worry about the depot structure.

would dissent that green is good (in this particular sense), since until late 42 (as the Axis) you lack sufficient delivery capacity for freight it means you aren't working it hard enough. I like yellow (again in this context), can be fairly relaxed over a tinge of orange and pay attention to red - but only where red is a core train line not a spur or final step

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