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deeper Supply questions - 11/13/2021 5:25:00 PM

Duedman

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Hi all.

Since I stumbled upon this game a few months ago, I played it a lot.
But with some supply rules I still struggle.

I have 2 videolinks (viewer beware - both are German) where I simply do not understand how the HQ gets the maximum chain boost of 8.

In the first one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H0aheDFQJFc at minute 2:58 the northern HQ should not put out an 8. No town nearby, the next HQ with a 10 is far away. Or am I missing something?

In the second one https://youtu.be/4LoyS52gQ6U at minute 0:19 the left HQ will have an output of 8 the next turn. Both Gorki and Wladimir are at 3 this turn and 4 the next turn. The HQ in Gorki is going to hand out a 6. Where does the other HQ get his 5 from to end up with 8?

I really hope some1 can enlighten me about this. These situations where I simply do not know whats going on supplywise do not happen very often but it is still irritating.

Post #: 1

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/13/2021 6:39:19 PM

Bavre

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Generally if you need info on supply stuff I'd recommend mdsmalls supply enzyclopedia over at the WW1 forum:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4924897
Mechanics should be the same in both games.
Specific to your questions: In the above thread post 3 point 23 explains the detailed mechanics of the chains. Basically the supply 10 HQ in the first video can boost one other HQ within 9 movement points (NOT hexes) to 8. Just 1 point from the boosting HQ needs to reach the receiver to trigger the effect (with all other conditions being fulfilled of course)

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Post #: 2

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/13/2021 7:21:18 PM

Duedman

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Thanks a lot!
But....
I still need to be convinced that over like 20 matches (which went quite well) I did it all wrong.
Whats the logic of needing a Str5 Town for an HQ to create an output of 8 but a mere 1 from another HQ far away suffices for the same effect?
Also I would have bet money on the point that often when I ventured too far away with my boosted HQ from a boosting HQ my supply dropped.
And with "too far away" I mean more than 3 movement points so the second HQ is no longer on a hex that gets 5 from the boosting HQ.

I mean.... this opens up a lot more possibilities! I'll check that out for sure.

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Post #: 3

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/13/2021 8:11:45 PM

Bavre

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It also depends on the base supply of both the boosting and the boosted HQ. Afaik this chain does not transfer or share supply but only triggers an effect (not 100% sure though).
My advice to get the hang of it would be to do a hotseat vs yourself, get 2 HQs to a low supply area and try it out a bit.
Once you get it right this is VERY powerful. In a current match my opponent constantly strat bombed/ shore bombarded all the coast towns leading up to Alexandria, but I always had 8 supply for my spearhead until I misclicked and put my HQs 1 hex too far from each other

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Post #: 4

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/14/2021 3:49:54 AM

Duedman

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This really bugs me. It cannot work as intended can it?
I'd love to hear Hubert's or Bill's opinion on this again.

Everybody and their moms use this table to plan their moves

Incoming supply: 0 Distributed supply: 3
Incoming supply: 1 or 2 Distributed supply: 5
Incoming supply: 3 or 4 Distributed supply: 6
Incoming supply: 5 Distributed supply: 8
Incoming supply 6 up Distributed supply: 10

You need a 5 for an 8. Period.
This is a good ruleset.

But obviously all german youtubers, 2 tutorials I watched, me and (probably) all of my opponents ....we all got it wrong.
A 1 can give you an 8.
This should not be the case. It is completely counter intuitive and also seems illogical to me.

If this really works as intended, it both trivializes and complicates the game at the same time (for me of course. For everybody who already knew it, it stays the same lol)
Why does it get more trivial? Because you can get an 8 basically anywhere and you need far fewer towns.
Why more complicated? It drastically raises the need to manually select who gets boosted.

I know I'm years late to the party and I should not complain. But I do. Don't be mad at me

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Post #: 5

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/14/2021 12:33:33 PM

Bavre

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I'm also quite new to WiE, my knowledge of the games mechanics comes from the WW1 title, so I know little of metas, balancing etc...
But wouldn't the absence of the chain mechanic utterly trivialize the defense of some regions (e.g. Egypt)? Also you don't need to (actually can't) select who gets boosted, the game handles this automatically. Chances are very high you profited from it throughout your last 20 games without realizing. Knowledge of the exact mechanic only allows you to get even more out of it. For example in your video you could have advanced your Russian HQ even further and still get 8.

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Post #: 6

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/14/2021 12:54:05 PM

Duedman

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Sorry, maybe I put that wrong. I very much like the HQ chain mechanic. But in the sense I thought it worked until now. (You need 5 Supply on a hex to create 8.) Egypt is very well doable that way.
I do not think I profited the from the mechanic since I always counted the movement-hexes from the boosting HQ to ensure I put the boosted HQ on a 5.
So I very rarely "used" it.
Only on rare occasions, like in the second video, I realized that there must be a rule I do not know.
In the video I even commented that I probably could move the HQ further but I did not want to risk it...in case I'm wrong.

With the new (for me) massively extended ranges of where I can get an 8 I think selecting the chains would be very beneficial.
Imagine if u play 1942 Scenario and approach Moscow from the south but also want to advance eastwards via Voronesh. You hold Kursk with an HQ and put out a 10. Voronesh is just captured and at very low supply. North of Kursk u did not capture a town yet. Which HQ will get boosted? The one near Voronesh or the one approaching Moscow from the south?

But thats just a side topic. I think the situation in the first video should never ever give an 8 gameplaywise.

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Post #: 7

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/14/2021 1:14:21 PM

Taxman66

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Unfortunately, you don't get to choose which HQ gets the boost.

Typically if there is more than 1 HQ that is capable of receiving a boost then the one with the better Rank (or Rank+experience I don't recall) will get it.
However if there is a situation where multiple HQs are capable of boosting, and multiple HQs of receiving the boost, things get a (or appear to) bit more random and it won't necessarily work they way you want or expect.

The only suggestions I have are:
1) Try to force a single boost selection when/where it is critical.
2) Experiment liberally in a self only Hot Seat or a fooling around game vs. AI
3) Learn to use the 'S' key. Tthe 2nd pressing will tell you the supply situation next turn, providing no enemy interference. That 2nd pressing will also show you which HQs will be boosted. So you can check, move an HQ and then check again. Rinse and repeat.

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Post #: 8

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/15/2021 1:55:53 PM

Duedman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66

Unfortunately, you don't get to choose which HQ gets the boost.

The only suggestions I have are:
1) Try to force a single boost selection when/where it is critical.
2) Experiment liberally in a self only Hot Seat or a fooling around game vs. AI
3) Learn to use the 'S' key. Tthe 2nd pressing will tell you the supply situation next turn, providing no enemy interference. That 2nd pressing will also show you which HQs will be boosted. So you can check, move an HQ and then check again. Rinse and repeat.

Thanks for the reply.
HQ Chaining is actually not my main point.
I just really dislike that you can get boosted to 8 in the middle of nowhere. Like east of Stalingrad if u take Saratov (Supply 10 with HQ). Or in the woods behind Moscow via a HQ in Rjasan. All of that with Stalingrad or Moscow still in control of the Soviets.
This is extremely ahistorical and manymany ppl dont actually fully understand this. They all think the table from above applies (5 -> 8) and just carefully dont move their receiving HQs too far away (seemingly!!) from the Boosting ones. So I'm really not sure whether this actually works as intended or not.

But if it does... so be it. Just makes the Axis a whole lot stronger.

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Post #: 9

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/15/2021 3:06:36 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duedman

This really bugs me. It cannot work as intended can it?
I'd love to hear Hubert's or Bill's opinion on this again.

Everybody and their moms use this table to plan their moves

Incoming supply: 0 Distributed supply: 3
Incoming supply: 1 or 2 Distributed supply: 5
Incoming supply: 3 or 4 Distributed supply: 6
Incoming supply: 5 Distributed supply: 8
Incoming supply 6 up Distributed supply: 10

You need a 5 for an 8. Period.
This is a good ruleset.

But obviously all german youtubers, 2 tutorials I watched, me and (probably) all of my opponents ....we all got it wrong.
A 1 can give you an 8.
This should not be the case. It is completely counter intuitive and also seems illogical to me.

If this really works as intended, it both trivializes and complicates the game at the same time (for me of course. For everybody who already knew it, it stays the same lol)
Why does it get more trivial? Because you can get an 8 basically anywhere and you need far fewer towns.
Why more complicated? It drastically raises the need to manually select who gets boosted.

I know I'm years late to the party and I should not complain. But I do. Don't be mad at me

Hi Dudeman,

The logic is generally like this, if the boost mechanism didn't have a special set of rules, then there would be no boost mechanism and you would have the default supply rules, which is already part of the game, e.g. if the boost mechanism followed the same rules, it more or less wouldn't be a supply boost mechanism then.

The boost mechanism is there to help with low supply situations and only works if you have more than one HQ that can be 'chained' together to make it work.

Hopefully that kind of makes sense?
Hubert

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Post #: 10

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/15/2021 3:30:28 PM

Duedman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Hi Dudeman,

The logic is generally like this, if the boost mechanism didn't have a special set of rules, then there would be no boost mechanism and you would have the default supply rules, which is already part of the game, e.g. if the boost mechanism followed the same rules, it more or less wouldn't be a supply boost mechanism then.

The boost mechanism is there to help with low supply situations and only works if you have more than one HQ that can be 'chained' together to make it work.

Hopefully that kind of makes sense?
Hubert

Hi Hubert, thank you for the reply. But after reading it I think I still did not bring my point across.
You say, without special rules, there would be no boost mechanism and it would be default supply rules.
But the boost mechanism is already special rule in itself which allows to EXTEND the default supply rules (Default would be "Supply can only be extended in or near a town").

Boosting with default rule would look like:
Boosting HQ in a Str.5 Town does 8. So 3 hexes away there is 5 Supply left. These 5 supply are like a "town in the wilderness" from which the boosted HQ can create 8 again.
That is how I thought it worked and still think it should work.

But what it actually looks like is:
Boosting HQ in Str.5 Town does 8. And 7 (!!!) hexes away, where it is only 1 supply left, the boosted HQ still creates an 8.
While according to the table from the manual

"Incoming supply:
0 Distributed supply: 3
Incoming supply: 1 or 2 Distributed supply: 5
Incoming supply: 3 or 4 Distributed supply: 6
Incoming supply: 5 Distributed supply: 8
Incoming supply 6 up Distributed supply: 10"

it should only be able to create 5 supply.

With a town like Saratov, where you can create 10 supply, its even worse. Allowing you to put a HQ behind Stalingrad with 8 supply if you so desire.
Isn't this just crazy?!

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Post #: 11

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/15/2021 7:05:05 PM

Hubert Cater

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Thanks and if I'm understanding correctly, you are happy with the idea that one HQ can boost another HQ, however the preference would be that there shouldn't then be special boosting supply rules, just the same existing supply rules should be followed. Essentially, the first HQ should just act like another town or city when it comes to resource calculations for any second HQ that is linked to the first.

Right now for the boost/linking we have the following.

Supply boosting between two HQs works as follows:

a) If the first HQ has a supply value of 1 or 2 and the second HQ has an
incoming supply of less than 3, then the second HQ will have its supply
boosted to 5(6). Its own supply being 5 which enables it to reinforce,
operate or be upgraded, and its supply distribution being 6.

b) If the first HQ has an incoming supply of at least 3, and the second
HQ has an incoming supply of less than 5, then the second HQ will have
its supply boosted to 5(8).

If we scrap that and just stick with the general supply table, most HQs that are candidates for 'boosting', would not really have any improvements to their supply.

For example, if I have an HQ, that is in low supply, it is most likely to receive a supply value < 5, whether from another close town or close by parent HQ, and it will max out at a distribution supply of 5 or 6.

It will be in most cases no change to what their distribution supply otherwise would have been, so no real boosting etc.

Again, this could be desired, but the whole idea was a way to help out units in low supply situations and thus the current mechanism. Granted there may be cases where it feels like it gives too much, but it also comes from a game play balance point of view as well. For example, if the Axis had no way to really boost their supply in the deeper low supply Soviet Union, it would be very rare that they could put up a meaningful fight at all.

Hopefully this helps to paint a better picture overall,
Hubert

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Post #: 12

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/15/2021 7:14:27 PM

Hubert Cater

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One thing I would add here was that this mechanism was, from memory, added to actually help the Axis out, and not really to give them an advantage. Not saying it is perfect, but that is the background on it here.

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RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/15/2021 7:29:39 PM

Duedman

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Hello again and thank you very much for that answer.
You say, Axis might struggle for supply when applying just the general supply table. They should!

I have played like 2 dozen MP matches so far and all this time I used "my" rules.
I just never moved my HQ on a hex where it might have less than 5 supply from the parent HQ. Because I thought, my supply would drop. It is very well doable to steamroll the russians that way.
And I actually very much restricted myself.

I would bet money that like 80% of the playerbase do not know that a 1 from a parent HQ is as good as a five.
When I started playing some months ago, I watched 2 tutorials on supply. One German, one English. Both had it wrong.
HQ chaining already is an uncommon mechanic. But once you got the supply table it kinda makes sense. Until it suddenly does not haha

I do not want to be seen as a troublemaker even troll lol.
But I really think using a combination of general supply table + HQ chaining would be better. Most of the players would not even notice the difference.

But then again. You are the Dev. I raised my point and we talked. I will live with whatever outcome :)

< Message edited by Duedman -- 11/15/2021 8:01:06 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/16/2021 1:11:00 AM

Hubert Cater

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In terms of Axis struggling for supply, agreed, of course they should and I would still argue that they do.

For example, between scorched earth and low resource occupational supply values, by default Axis supply is going to be much lower than that of the Soviets on native soil and still in control of good supply lines.

Boosted HQs will have a maximum supply of 8, and therefore an adjacent unit can at best have a maximum supply of 7, which is still potentially less than let's say a defending unit in Leningrad or Moscow at full supply of 10.

That being said, perhaps there is a misunderstanding of what a boosted HQ really represents here, in terms of what we are looking at for the HQ.

Which is to say we look at what their current best supply value would be from any friendly controlled resources, just like all other units on the map, and then suggest if it had a special relationship with another HQ, where they link to boost the other HQ, can it be boosted then to a slightly better supply value? This maxes out at either 6 or 8 as described above.

If we go with the suggested model of incoming supply should always dictate the current distribution supply level of an HQ, and other HQs can provide that incoming supply exactly. Then we can potentially have even higher HQ supply distribution values, which from what I understand from your comments above, is essentially the opposite end result of what you would be after here.

For example, if we take a look at the following, which is an example of the HQ at Kursk boosting the HQ just west of Voronezh, we see the boosted HQ maxed out at supply distribution of 8. Note, without HQ boosting, the HQ unit would have a supply value of 2 from Kursk and a max distribution value of 5, e.g. 6 from Kursk at 4 hexes away equal to 2, and then a distribution supply value of 5.

If we use the alternative/proposed incoming supply model to represent HQ boosting, the HQ at Kursk would provide an incoming supply value of 6 to the HQ west of Voronezh, and it would then be boosted to a supply distribution value of 10. In this case +2 over the current model.

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 11/16/2021 4:11:09 AM >

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Post #: 15

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/16/2021 4:52:25 PM

Duedman

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Ah yes. I forgot the rule of "boosted HQs are capped at 8".
Which in my eyes does round up the system of general supply table + Chain-HQs perfectly.

Str. 6 Cities which allow for an output of 10 are still very valuable even with using general supply table and Chainboost capped at 8.
Since these cities allow boosted HQs to venture 2 extra hexes away from their parent HQs and still get a supply value of 5. Compared to the parent HQ beeing in a Str. 5 city where they can only be 3 hexes away.
So I think "capped at 8" solves the issue you point at although it is a slight deviation from "general supply table, period"

As of now, for the example in your picture, you could bypass Voronezh with an HQ and still generate an 8. Which I personally find silly. Voronezh might not be a practical example.
But from Saratov downwards to Stalingrad is already powerful with "my" rules. You simply bypass all fortifications the the Allied player might have put at the front. But if a Base Supply of 1 is as good as a 5? Oh boy :D
Also from Rjasan (south east of Moscow) to an 8 right behind Mosocow in the woods. Not good.

And finally the example from the video. The Italian HQ is parent with a 10 from Kursk. There are 2 wood tiles in between. The northern HQ has a base supply of 2. The units in this semi pocket are hundreds of kilometres away from the next real supply. But are at full combat capacity. For a long time German units at 7 supply wipe the floor with Russians no matter the Russian supply. Thats why I think it should not be so easy to get an 8 in the middle of nowwhere.

But I'd really like to know what other players think about this.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Duedman -- 11/16/2021 4:55:52 PM >

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Post #: 16

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/16/2021 7:12:25 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duedman

The Italian HQ is parent with a 10 from Kursk. There are 2 wood tiles in between. The northern HQ has a base supply of 2. The units in this semi pocket are hundreds of kilometres away from the next real supply. But are at full combat capacity. For a long time German units at 7 supply wipe the floor with Russians no matter the Russian supply. Thats why I think it should not be so easy to get an 8 in the middle of nowwhere.

Thanks for this, and don't get me wrong here, but I feel that this example essentially reinforces the whole point of the HQ boosting mechanism, which is to help provide supply in a low supply situation.

If not we just end up back at the default rules, for the most part, and in the end there is going to be a lot of cases where there is really no "boost" at all.

For example, this screenshot shows how precarious the current HQ boost is, e.g. not a surefire and always easy to take advantage of situation for the Axis, as it is very close to being cut off and a cut off pocket created.

Now I understand that this was to show a point, but that being said, if we didn't want to have that potential cutoff pocket, the easiest play by the Axis player is to ensure they capture Orel.

But as soon as you do, and if we go with the proposed "general supply table, period" suggestion, we are essentially back to the default supply rules.

e.g. the HQ south of Tula is at incoming supply of 2 from the Italian HQ at Kursk, which means that the HQ south of Tula would have a supply distribution of 5 assuming "general supply table" rules.

If and when Orel is captured, Orel will be at supply 5, and the HQ south of Tula would also have a supply of 2 from Tula, and also resulting in a supply distribution of 5.

Granted you could move HQs up, put one at Orel, but as soon as you do, whether you go with the current boosting rule, or the "general supply table" rule, both will result in that HQ south of Tula having a supply distribution value of 8.

Again, for me this has me just circle back to my previous point that in the end most HQs that are candidates for 'boosting' would not really have any improvements to their supply if we stick to the general supply table.

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Post #: 17

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/16/2021 7:16:19 PM

Hubert Cater

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The other concern I would have is for areas like North Africa that are of general low supply as well, and especially once the Malta effect comes into play. In most cases if we go with "supply table" rule only, a second "boosted" HQ will have a max supply distribution value of 5 and this will prevent units supplied from this HQ from being able to upgrade, operate, and meaningfully reinforce.

This could be desired, supply is still low either way, but this will make it that much harder, and potentially change how the game plays there as well.

It's just something we'd have to consider as well as whether or not to amend the Malta effect to compensate and so on.

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Post #: 18

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/16/2021 7:32:01 PM

Hubert Cater

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Likely it would also have an effect on how an initial Barbarossa would unfold as a hard push/blitzkrieg would likely peter out much sooner if the boost was not there and the Axis side had to wait for supply values to catch up. Just within the context of scorched earth and so on.

Again, not to say the current setup is perfect, but we'd have to consider carefully such a change, and just how differently the game may or may not play from such a change as well.

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Post #: 19

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/16/2021 7:56:00 PM

Duedman

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Had the road not been disrupted by the enemy Cav, the Hex southeast of the centre Antitank would have had a 5 base supply from Voronesh to create an 8.
To me, that would be totally fine.

Why you do think that reducing the chainboosting power to the values of the general supply table (and max boost to 8) is "essentially back to default rules" I do not understand.

It would still extend the 8 supply by 3 hexes away from where a "no chain total default" 8 supply would be possible (i.e. directly from a HQ in a City).
For that it actually does not even matter, if the Booster city is Str. 5 or 6. The end result is the same. the boosted HQ at (5)8 supply via parent HQ is always 3 travelhexes further out than the 8 supply of "no chain total default"
This does help significantly in my opinion. I know, since as I said I thought that was the limit for many matches lol.

But I really do feel bad already for stealing so much of your time.
Especially since no one else seems to have a problem with this issue.
So I will happily agree to disagree!

edit: Sorry, did see the other 2 posts too late.
Scorched Earth in Barbarossa is not that bad since the HQs need to catch up anyway and you get an undestroyed town here and there (where you can then railtransport you slowest HQ into to keep the speed up).
North Africa with "my" rules is bad yes. But thats a challenge. There are rounds in between, where you can upgrade/fully heal. Problem there is usually not the supply but rather the Allied player Levelbombing / blocking the ports so you are trapped with the Afrika Korps and no reinforcements possible. While the Allies pile up the units.

< Message edited by Duedman -- 11/16/2021 8:09:04 PM >

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Post #: 20

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/17/2021 1:21:49 AM

Hubert Cater

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No problem at all, this is sometimes a good exercise to just remind us why something might be the way it is, or to have a better understanding on possible alternatives, and the pros and cons.

Discussions are always a good thing

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RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/17/2021 2:00:06 AM

Elessar2

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As a scenario designer I'd like to see more things moved into the editor from the dreaded "Hard Coded Zone" and this would certainly be one such example. I don't see much difficulty (I could be wrong) in putting some toggles for the above factors into the Advanced Campaign Data menu, right next to the Resource Supply Calculation toggle (seems to be plenty of room in the bottom right).

So Duedman you do have allies out here, and I would tend to agree that 7 hexes for full boost is a few too many.

< Message edited by Elessar2 -- 11/17/2021 2:01:04 AM >

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Post #: 22

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/17/2021 3:33:05 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elessar2
As a scenario designer I'd like to see more things moved into the editor from the dreaded "Hard Coded Zone" and this would certainly be one such example. I don't see much difficulty (I could be wrong) in putting some toggles for the above factors into the Advanced Campaign Data menu, right next to the Resource Supply Calculation toggle (seems to be plenty of room in the bottom right).

Agreed, having more things accessible would be great, it unfortunately always comes down to, at this point in the development cycle, to time and resources and where to maximize our focus.

quote:

So Duedman you do have allies out here, and I would tend to agree that 7 hexes for full boost is a few too many.

I can certainly see in some cases how it might feel that way, I would just want to reinforce that all cases and original reasons for the current implementation be considered as well.

For example, and as I mentioned already above, we did introduce this mechanism to help address concerns going as far back as SC2, and that the Axis needed some way to help themselves with low supply. Additionally we've had feedback come our way that deep pushes and sweeping encirclements are already very difficult to do, and I suspect the proposed change will make things that much harder. Thus my concerns on how it will play out for Barbarossa and so on.

For example, if we take a look at this setup below, and if we go with "general supply table", where an HQ acts like a town/city, your boosted HQ (and subsequent units dependent on this HQ) can only go so far from its parent HQ in order to maximize supply. This is all I mean by it will potentially in many cases start to feel just like the default supply rules where in order to maximize supply all HQs need to be near or on their supply source, e.g. it might not be all that different from needing to be close to a town, if you need to be close to a parent HQ that is maximized by being in that same town.

The parent HQ at Orel will have a maximized supply distribution of 8, which means that any boosted HQ, marked in red, can only be at most 3 hexes away for maximum supply to also provide a distribution of 8. The Tank marked in blue can at most have a supply value of 4. I believe, unless I counted wrong, no matter where the boosted HQ is moved, that Tank will never have a supply value greater than 4.

However, under the current system, players can push that boosted HQ further east to support that outflanking attempt (if desired) and get that Tank up to as high as supply 7.

Again, I could be wrong, but it just feels like you'll have much more difficulty in creating that blitzkrieg like feel on a more open front like the USSR if you take away or reduce that risk/reward on extended supply lines via the current HQ boosting mechanism that provides for some extended range.

< Message edited by Hubert Cater -- 11/17/2021 3:35:14 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/17/2021 5:19:08 PM

Duedman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater
Again, I could be wrong, but it just feels like you'll have much more difficulty in creating that blitzkrieg like feel on a more open front like the USSR if you take away or reduce that risk/reward on extended supply lines via the current HQ boosting mechanism that provides for some extended range.

On the contrary I think that the risk/reward of blitzkrieg and encirclements is far greater with more limited supply.
It needs a lot of just practicing and trial and error to pull it of. But then it is really not easy to defend against even with "my" rules.

For the most encirclements, Paras are a must tho. And usuably force march. March to a hex which autocaptures a neutral hex. Then forcemarch there and autocapture another free hex. Then forcemarch there. At the very end of forcemarching, bring in the Paras.
Very low or even no supply for the forward encircling troops is not the end of the world. Ideally you need to kill the enemy HQ(s) during your flanking move. And use the German Wunderwaffe Strategic Bomber to reduce their supply. And without HQ, with low supply and general lesser russian techlevel the encircled troops are as bad as or even worse than your least supplied encircling troops. So not much happens to your extremely low supplied forward troops.
And then the hammer strikes the anvil.

What you also need is patience. Might sound weird in a blitzkrieg but if you see the opportunity for a major encirclement, it is best not to strike prematurely. Have enough Airforce at hand to eliminate the lynchpin you might have spotted. Have the the troops repaired and the Paras ready (but do not show them!!).
Impatience leads to an open encirclement and THEN your forward troops are in trouble.

The nicest encirclement I ever did with "my" rules was the one below. Had I only known, that the second HQ could go far more north haha.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Duedman -- 11/17/2021 6:39:42 PM >

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RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/17/2021 6:31:37 PM

Hubert Cater

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Fair enough, and I guess my feeling is that players will be on average less likely to try outflanking, if they will be arguably less effective when their forward units will have no possibility other than low supply. For me that is the risk/reward that I almost feel we'll be taking away, e.g. pushing the limits of a longer supply line with a potentially rewarding payoff, while risking being pinched and/or cut off.

There is also the matter of North Africa, having units at best at 4 supply when in the worst case supply situation and with a parent/boosted HQ will change things, e.g. no upgrades, operational movement and limited reinforcement.

Again, those could be rectified, possibly, with amended supply effects such as the Malta effect, but at this point with the game as balanced as it is, I'd still be hesitant to make wholesale changes without really understanding any new issues that might come out with a 'fix'.

Especially if the changes also then require their own set of special rules to make sure it still works, e.g. still capping a boosted HQ at 8, and/or whatever else might be needed to ensure North Africa still works and so on. Just meaning I wouldn't want it to then end up not far off from what we have now, a special mechanism that is a bit different but still with considerations to understand/ensure how it all works etc.

One thing that could be tried is to play/simulate this proposal with the current setup and rules and see how it plays out. For example, keep your boosted HQ within 3 hexes of a parent HQ when the original supply source is max 5 or less, and maybe use HQs with strength 8 in North Africa for the boosted HQ as that will ensure the maximum adjacent supply of a friendly unit will max out at 4 (when the worst case supply situations arise) as the max distribution of the boosted HQ will drop from 6 to 5.

Something like that as I would be interested to see how not only North Africa and the Soviet Union play out, including Barbarossa, but also things like D-Day, and even Allied landings in Italy/Sicily etc.

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RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/18/2021 4:26:57 PM

Duedman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater
One thing that could be tried is to play/simulate this proposal with the current setup and rules and see how it plays out. For example, keep your boosted HQ within 3 hexes of a parent HQ when the original supply source is max 5 or less, and maybe use HQs with strength 8 in North Africa for the boosted HQ as that will ensure the maximum adjacent supply of a friendly unit will max out at 4 (when the worst case supply situations arise) as the max distribution of the boosted HQ will drop from 6 to 5.

Something like that as I would be interested to see how not only North Africa and the Soviet Union play out, including Barbarossa, but also things like D-Day, and even Allied landings in Italy/Sicily etc.

I unintentionally simulated just that for 20+ Multiplayer matches. And it went very well. (Until I ran into Gilber lol)
But I see that Beginners might struggle.
I think there should be a developer tutorial on youtube about the current rules. Because as I said, as a new player you watch this stuff. And youtube got it wrong. The whole German community, which I think increased significantly due to a Lets Play from 2 quite popular youtubers, still plays it with "my" rules. Because they did.
The initial youtube link I posted is from a guy I consider the most skilled german player I've seen so far.
And he is wondering about why his HQ still got 8. Saying something along the lines of "Hmm, there must be some special rule at play here"

The general supply table + HQ chaining just seems to make so much sense. Special rule: HQ boost to a maximum of 8. Done.
At this point you think u understood the game and are ready to play.
Until you discover, that if the supply originates from a parent HQ....well then a 1 is as good as a 5! Confusing!

And on North Africa again: Imho it is not the supply that kills Axis. After the Afrika Korps arrives you got 2 HQs which help to get the 8 supply quite often.
If Allies do not completely prevent reinforcements (1-2 AA Guns are enough for quite a while), it is not that hard to hold your ground or even make some progress.
But if Allies are preventing Subs from entering the Med (by just blocking the 2 Gibraltar hexes) in combination with bombing the 2 ports in the very first turn possible ... then you are in trouble and supply is the least of your issues.
I am right now in the first match, where my opponent (guess who) does this with dedication. It is only a matter of time until his numerical advantage will prevail. I dont even want to spawn the Africa Korps lol.

But I digress!
Maybe there could be just an ingame option for "harder supply rules"?

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RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/18/2021 5:05:45 PM

Taxman66

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I know something that would help would be a visual indication of 'parent' and 'supported' HQ.
I also know it's more involved than it appears given that status can change as you move HQs around.
However, it should be possible given that the computer can already determine changes vis a vis checking the next turn's supply situation by using the 'S' key (2nd pressing of said key).

---
Perhaps a future version of the game could use a new 'Supply Depot' unit. Said unit would act as a child/supported HQ only for purposes of generating supply and does not support/boost specific units.

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RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/18/2021 6:08:33 PM

Hubert Cater

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duedman
I unintentionally simulated just that for 20+ Multiplayer matches. And it went very well. (Until I ran into Gilber lol)

Hey Duedman,

All I can suggest here is that whereas the USSR might be more forgiving, likely you were benefiting in North Africa from the current rules without perhaps fully realizing it. Perhaps in the USSR at times as well since HQs are auto assigned a parent / boost relationship.

As mentioned, you maybe rarely faced, if at all, a max 'boosted HQ' situation with a supply distribution of 5 leading to only 4 supply for your adjacent units. That is what going to a "supply table" rule would result in when the worst supply effects are to be felt by the Axis in North Africa.

From past discussions on this, and remembering there was an issue where Allied players would employ a Strategic Bomber strategy on North Africa coupled with the Malta effect, it was problematic and resulted in a single sure fire strategy for the Allies to use every time in North Africa.

Again, I get it, "supply table" rule only is more intuitive, but if there were problems before with players feeling that it was too hard to encircle units, or that a Strategic bombing strategy in North Africa was a theater killer, e.g. if the Axis have no effective counter, then anything that leads us back in that direction is going to be once again problematic. Which of course we always try and avoid.

Generally we are always in favour of improving and simplifying the game, but at the same time, tend to want to avoid going back towards something that will simply re-raise earlier concerns or produce some other unintended consequences that will have an impact in game. Which is why we tend to want to really think upon things and of course have these discussions.

All I can say for now is we will continue to think about it.

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RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/18/2021 6:10:14 PM

Hubert Cater

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Joined: 7/22/2013
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Taxman66
I know something that would help would be a visual indication of 'parent' and 'supported' HQ.

This is currently in game, e.g. if you click on an HQ, and it has a parent, the parent HQ will be highlighted with a yellow hex outline.

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RE: deeper Supply questions - 11/18/2021 7:45:55 PM

Taxman66

Posts: 1665
Joined: 3/19/2008
From: Columbia, MD. USA
Status: offline

It would be nice to see it intrinsically, without having to click on an HQ.
Or maybe an game option to turn an intrinsic display on/off.

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deeper Supply questions