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A Word to Vic.. - 11/26/2021 7:31:51 PM   
Octavian

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 11/29/2019
Status: offline
Dear Vic,
the DC series gave me my most exciting and immersive wargaming experiences and I will always be very grateful to you for having done that „for me“. With high expectations I waited for DC Ardennes Offensive in the last couple of months. I also tried Shadow Empire in the meantime, but couldn´t get really in touch with it.
It turns out, sadly, that, what prevented me from falling in love wit SE is the exact same thing, that I experience with my so long awaited new DC experience.
I know, there are heaps of people who enjoy, but nonetheless I would like to express and explain what is the core of my dissapointment. All this statement wants to achieve is improvement, not insult or accusation in any way. Since I am no native englishspeaker - I am german – please excuse any strange expressions..;), since it is not that easy to express.
I try anyway: What I feel as a main problem of both games is, that I loose oversight and control, because there are – and I claim this is no personal problem of me – just so many parameters of whatsoever, that a human being is unable to do more than guessing instead of doing informed decisions. I want to make that clearer with the help of two examples:
1. Uncertainty rule: In another post of mine, I tried to figure out, what uncertainty option really does. Some people answered and in the end, you, Vic, ruled all this guessing out and came up with a very complex table, full of maths, to give us enlightenment. The problem is: these formulas you gave us, are not only hard to grasp, they also never can be used as a basis to have an idea of the effect uncertainty really has to my use of a unit.
2. An even better example is: recon points. I tried hard to understand this concept. And from what I understand my units throw recon points to their surrounding hexes and then landscape, distance, height and shadow, weather and stuff come into play to make a certain figure in the end for a certain hex. On the other hand there is hide points, based on the size of the enemy unit in regard to many other factors. These both are then calculated against each other with another formula. All this – please don´t get me wrong – makes perfect sense in simulating warfare mathematically. BUT: in the end, I, as player, who makes dozens of movement and battle decisions in one turn, cannot make use of all these figures properly, since the feedback – i.e. what I see on my monitor – isn´t presented to me in a way that I can EASILY make an informed decision. It needed f.e ten minutes of hard thinking for only one of my dozen decisions, to find out, which size a unit could maximally have in a certain hex for me to NOT see it, f.e.
So – and that might be sort of conclusion: what is the sense of having underlying concepts, that are so complicated, that there is NO HUMAN WAY to figure out what they are telling me in my attempt to make a certain decision?
I am in no way against randomness and stuff, don´t get me wrong please. If i wanted chess, I would play chess. But I want to have at least a certain feeling of control and transparency, when I make a decision in a wargame and I want to know – after my decision – why there was a certain outcome.
So I dare to say, dear Vic, - out of respect for your work and effort – that I feel, that you – in an earnest attempt to get it perfectly done – are overdoing some things and make them so convoluted, that I needed to be a processor and no human being, in order to play your game properly and with a sense of control and transparency. I still achieve even major victories in DC Ardennes, but too often I have no idea, what I am really doing there. For me, this kills much of the joy I had in earlier games from your hands. Other players are invited and welome to make their comments to this. I couldn´t make it any clearer, what I mean, sorry.
Post #: 1
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/27/2021 9:47:58 AM   
Octavian

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 11/29/2019
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For the LOS/Recon point discussion see as a corresponding note also the thread: LOS question.

(in reply to Octavian)
Post #: 2
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/27/2021 11:03:11 AM   
Krupinski


Posts: 365
Joined: 8/28/2010
Status: offline
Hi Octavian,

i`m native german speaker, too. So if you like to talk bit deeper into the issues, i can tell you my toughts.

Short summary

Compared to other wargames, I like the overview of the influencing factors that influence the fight (see combat planning screen).
Imo its much less a "black box" compared to other games.

To some extent I need some uncertainty. The decision-makers in World War II had to make many decisions under uncertainty and assumptions.
And an overly open algorithm without variation, which can be calculated precisely, is unrealistic.
That would take me too much into the power gaming area, where everything can be precisely calculated.

Of course that's just my opinion.

Many greetings
Krupinski




(in reply to Octavian)
Post #: 3
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/27/2021 6:22:12 PM   
Octavian

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 11/29/2019
Status: offline
Hey Krupinski,
nice you join in the conversation.
I see your point and I admit, there might be some truth in it.
I also need or like uncertainty - and there are for sure enough dice rolls in this and most other wargames, that guarantee for that.
BUT what I don´t like is subsystems, that are so complex and overconvolutet that I know there is a lot of stuff under the hood when I shift my panzers around,
but I have no damn clue how I should reasonably make a PLAYABLE sense out of this in my 99 decisions that I have to take in every round of play.
So - in regard of LOS f.e., I don´t mind, not knowing if there is an enemy, but I want to know, that I can´t now and not just guess around wildly, because the calculations that I COULD DO (so, it is not, that this is hidden or something) are just so overwhelming and time consuming, that I will never do and so I stumble around blindly ALTHOUGH there is enough information present somewhere in some fiddly submenue, but I am not given an easier oversight but left to a certain degree of despair, because I know, I could do all that math - and maybe should to spare my poor troopers - but I don´t want to play with a calculator in my hand and ten mathematical formulas in my papersheet. Know what I mean?

(in reply to Krupinski)
Post #: 4
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/27/2021 6:55:12 PM   
Krupinski


Posts: 365
Joined: 8/28/2010
Status: offline
Yes, I understand your point of view. What I find useful as an approach is to try real-world tactics.
And see how the engine deals with it.
This, in combination with a study of the tables in the manual on terrain, locomotion, etc.

A game is successful when it is not you that has to be fought against the engine but the enemy.
For me that is the benchmark for a wargame that claims to be realistic.

Of course we (grognards) can't really judge the realism. But we have read quite a few books, looked at interviews and documentations.

(in reply to Octavian)
Post #: 5
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/28/2021 2:47:49 AM   
Rosseau

 

Posts: 2757
Joined: 9/13/2009
Status: offline
Very interesting discussion here, and am sorry I can only talk in English and Spanish - no German. But look for our friend Oberst_Klink on this forum, as he is quite knowledgeable.

I understand what Octavian is saying, and Krupinski's suggestion to try to enjoy the game using "real-world tactics" is very good.

Mostly, I am hoping Octavian will not give up on this good game. Personally, I force myself not to bury myself in figuring out the calculations, because the German and American officers making the decisions at that time had far-from-perfect knowledge of anything. Especially in this scenario. So, I attempt to "role-play" while at the same time knowing the calculations under the game engine are good, and in this product, there are many good calculations!

Best wishes

(in reply to Krupinski)
Post #: 6
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/28/2021 8:10:23 AM   
JacquesDeLalaing

 

Posts: 88
Joined: 10/7/2016
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I'd also suggest you just act as it seems fit for you in the given situation. If it is a good wargame, this should lead to plausible results. All the calculations going on "under the hood" are but the attempt to translate player input into results in an convincing, "simulationist" manner.

DC:Ardennes is in a few ways more ambitious than other wargames I know, particularly when it comes to uncertainty and supply/road congestions. In other wargames, these two aspects are present but often don't really matter that much compared to the "combat action". In DC:Ardennes, they're much more salient, which impresses me. Of course this also means that there are a few more things for the players to consider.

(in reply to Rosseau)
Post #: 7
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/28/2021 3:38:08 PM   
MrLongleg

 

Posts: 707
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Plymouth, MA, USA
Status: offline
I have to disagree with Octavian. I played all DC games except Blitzkrieg and this is a masterpiece, my absolute favored. I think Vic got it just right. I love the uncertainty, the unexpected ambushes, the card system etc. I have now played for at least 40 hours and am 3 days into Wacht am Rhein. The immersion is perfect. And I don't think the point of the game is to completely understand all the internal calculations and formulas, it is to create a realistic enough simulation of this historic battle, and I think this has been achieved 100%. Also Kudos for the music, normally I turn kit off, but here it just brings me into an almost meditative state being one with my pixel troops on the screen. And now excuse me, I am 4 km outside of Bastogne and need to take it...

_____________________________

MrLongleg

Life is too short to drink bad wine ;-)

(in reply to JacquesDeLalaing)
Post #: 8
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/28/2021 4:21:40 PM   
Octavian

 

Posts: 65
Joined: 11/29/2019
Status: offline
Thanks for all your comments so far. Nice to see, that my question triggered some reaction as I was hoping for in order to feel how you, "the community" are thinking about this one certain critic I have - that doesn´t stop me playing, no worries, nor does it take away my admiration for Vic´s designs.
Just today I played a small scenario for the second time, this time from the german perspective, and I must admit: It had me bitting on my nails,
since there was very much tension and I now would admit, that this game hits a sweet spot between uncertainty and minimaxing and it really is a masterpiece of
a wargame.
Nevertheless there are parts that should be presented in a more playerfriendly way, where on top of this sits the recon/LOS rules and their being presented in the game. I don´t struggle with road congestion and supply btw since THEY are easy to read and understand.
I was insisting so much on my point, because I stumbled about the same sort of thing in Shadow Empire, Vics last game before DC Ardennes. Here you have like 30 parameters or traits for personality and interdependence of that with certain factions and all that and again I would say, you can´t make a lot of use of it, since it is just too much of good thing. But: maybe I am on a completely wrong track here. Maybe this is just Vic´s way to make all these games more lifely, more vivid, more "real" in a way, since we all know, that life HAS a chaotic structure in itself.


(in reply to MrLongleg)
Post #: 9
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/29/2021 8:30:30 AM   
Vic


Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Octavian

Dear Vic,
the DC series gave me my most exciting and immersive wargaming experiences and I will always be very grateful to you for having done that „for me“. With high expectations I waited for DC Ardennes Offensive in the last couple of months. I also tried Shadow Empire in the meantime, but couldn´t get really in touch with it.
It turns out, sadly, that, what prevented me from falling in love wit SE is the exact same thing, that I experience with my so long awaited new DC experience.
I know, there are heaps of people who enjoy, but nonetheless I would like to express and explain what is the core of my dissapointment. All this statement wants to achieve is improvement, not insult or accusation in any way. Since I am no native englishspeaker - I am german – please excuse any strange expressions..;), since it is not that easy to express.
I try anyway: What I feel as a main problem of both games is, that I loose oversight and control, because there are – and I claim this is no personal problem of me – just so many parameters of whatsoever, that a human being is unable to do more than guessing instead of doing informed decisions. I want to make that clearer with the help of two examples:
1. Uncertainty rule: In another post of mine, I tried to figure out, what uncertainty option really does. Some people answered and in the end, you, Vic, ruled all this guessing out and came up with a very complex table, full of maths, to give us enlightenment. The problem is: these formulas you gave us, are not only hard to grasp, they also never can be used as a basis to have an idea of the effect uncertainty really has to my use of a unit.
2. An even better example is: recon points. I tried hard to understand this concept. And from what I understand my units throw recon points to their surrounding hexes and then landscape, distance, height and shadow, weather and stuff come into play to make a certain figure in the end for a certain hex. On the other hand there is hide points, based on the size of the enemy unit in regard to many other factors. These both are then calculated against each other with another formula. All this – please don´t get me wrong – makes perfect sense in simulating warfare mathematically. BUT: in the end, I, as player, who makes dozens of movement and battle decisions in one turn, cannot make use of all these figures properly, since the feedback – i.e. what I see on my monitor – isn´t presented to me in a way that I can EASILY make an informed decision. It needed f.e ten minutes of hard thinking for only one of my dozen decisions, to find out, which size a unit could maximally have in a certain hex for me to NOT see it, f.e.
So – and that might be sort of conclusion: what is the sense of having underlying concepts, that are so complicated, that there is NO HUMAN WAY to figure out what they are telling me in my attempt to make a certain decision?
I am in no way against randomness and stuff, don´t get me wrong please. If i wanted chess, I would play chess. But I want to have at least a certain feeling of control and transparency, when I make a decision in a wargame and I want to know – after my decision – why there was a certain outcome.
So I dare to say, dear Vic, - out of respect for your work and effort – that I feel, that you – in an earnest attempt to get it perfectly done – are overdoing some things and make them so convoluted, that I needed to be a processor and no human being, in order to play your game properly and with a sense of control and transparency. I still achieve even major victories in DC Ardennes, but too often I have no idea, what I am really doing there. For me, this kills much of the joy I had in earlier games from your hands. Other players are invited and welome to make their comments to this. I couldn´t make it any clearer, what I mean, sorry.



I aim to make games where due to the quantity / complexity of calculations you are strongly pushed in the direction to make your moves guided by intuition instead of calculation.

None-the-less I always aim at the same time to have transparency on all calculations for those players who want to verify how things are calculated as well as for debugging and collectively (by player feedback) improving the realism of the calculations.

I am open to making improvements to help make the game easier to play. Like for example I like the suggestion of showing all the hexes where Eff.Recon > Hide. To help the player know where the chance is really reduced to walk into an ambush.

best wishes,
Vic

< Message edited by Vic -- 11/29/2021 8:32:47 AM >


_____________________________

Visit www.vrdesigns.net for the latest news, polls, screenshots and blogs on Shadow Empire, Decisive Campaigns and Advanced Tactics


(in reply to Octavian)
Post #: 10
RE: A Word to Vic.. - 11/29/2021 10:11:57 PM   
eddieballgame

 

Posts: 676
Joined: 6/29/2011
Status: offline
New to the 'DC' series & Shadow Empire (best pc game I have purchased in long while) has enlightened me to just how good a developer Vic is.
He, certainly, made 2020 bearable for me due to some fun 'pbem' games using 'SE'

Having picked up 'DCAO' & having played many hex based war sims, I can say that 'DCAO' is a war game I can get into.
So well done, &...it comes with editors! :)

(in reply to Vic)
Post #: 11
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