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Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 12:29:28 PM

Stamb

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I am playing GC and i got through the first winter pretty well. No territory loss.
I was not using bombing at all (except 1st turn) and i used GS few times. So there should be minimal fuel usage by luftwaffe.
I the next couple of turns i will be getting my panzers back to map from refit and i was building my plans where to advance next.

And then i saw fuel stores + pool and it looks like i will be out of full in the next 4-5 turns. So it will be April '41
T39 fuel stores + pool
[image=https://ibb.co/ZdvfFpn][/image]
T40 fuel stores + pool
[image]https://ibb.co/HFmnX5M[/image]

Also i find it strange that on T39 production data was this:
[image]https://ibb.co/9HvggKz[/image]
As we can see we need 156k of fuel. We producded 166k. So we produce more than we need. But as you can see on the next image on T40 there is less fuel in storage.
1. Why do we have less fuel on the next turn if we produce more then we need?
[image]https://ibb.co/gW7Dsxf[/image]

2. Why fuel used is lower then fuel need if we have enough fuel in the pool?

< Message edited by Stamb -- 11/27/2021 12:31:51 PM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 12:31:26 PM

Stamb

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How can i insert images to display them in one post instead of making 1 post for 1 image?

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 1:04:28 PM

AlbertN

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I have the same problem for the Fuel. It is dropping low, low and further low. I cannot explain how or why as my gameplay has been similar to yours.
The LW bombers were not used (they're useless presently at least according to the combat logs while Russian IL2 are devastating aces) past T1, so just recon and air supply / transport missions; and your occasional air-naval mission to block supply (that since last patch does not isolate anyhow somehow).

But my Fuel Graph is in a deep dive. It does not matter IF the frontline is static / trench awr or there are grand offensive operations ongoing on the map. Also I've the vibe that a prepared attack by mobile units (taking 16 MPs) drains the relative amount of fuel from their stock vs the hasty ones. Because I assume the system counts MP allowance expended and not distance travelled. So even on a static front if across mud or winter the panzers do deliberate attacks they smoke a lot of fuel, despite just inching a few kilometers forth and maybe maneuvering a bit in the 'hex' to represent the fighting.

-- For the Image business I am not able to do so either so I cannot help you.

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 1:27:14 PM

Stamb

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I was not using panzers and motorized divisions at all, except of couple of battles from the position were they are, and fuel consumption on a chart in the winter is actually higher then in a summer where you are advancing multiple hexes per week...

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 1:45:39 PM

AlbertN

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I am not sure in which quantity exactly fuel is produced, but there is also the factor of 'civilian economy' that devours an amount of production for the Axis and pretty much nothing for the Soviets.
But I cannot wrap my head around the fuel and oil production as it seems very obscure in the logistic phase.

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 1:45:50 PM

ShaggyHiK

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Perhaps it makes sense to look for an answer in the use of vehicles to deliver supplies to the troops. In addition, the fuel can be used for the production of weapons. Is not it so? For example, troops need 150k, and another 80k to produce tanks, weapons and aircraft?

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 2:02:34 PM

Stamb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

Perhaps it makes sense to look for an answer in the use of vehicles to deliver supplies to the troops. In addition, the fuel can be used for the production of weapons. Is not it so? For example, troops need 150k, and another 80k to produce tanks, weapons and aircraft?

My vehicles usage is much lower in the winter then in the summer as frontline is static and mostly units are gettings supplies within a 3 hexes range, so they use horses.

When we look here (bottom left chart):
https://ibb.co/9HvggKz
We can see that fuel that is used by a factories. Which is 103k and 52k by units. So its all included.

Now we can see that only 75k was used for for the factory upkeep and none by units. Ok maybe its a winter and 0 fuel get to a front. But why factories did not receive enough fuel?
Which makes situation even worse as 166k was produced and 75k was used. It means that 166k-75k = 91k which should go into pool or stored somewhere. But instead on the next turn we are again -100k or something about it.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 11/27/2021 2:03:03 PM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 2:13:47 PM

ShaggyHiK

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fuel used 75k only factory, how much used by troops is not shown.

It is difficult to imagine that the troops, even in a state of non-movement, do not use fuel. There are memories of German soldiers who burned barrels of fuel in the cold to keep warm.

< Message edited by ShaggyHiK -- 11/27/2021 2:17:53 PM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 2:24:48 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

How can i insert images to display them in one post instead of making 1 post for 1 image?

you need to host the images somewhere - I use image shack. The forum only allows one image to be uploaded per post.

So from experience, there is indeed an apparent collapse in fuel production and storage from late 1942 onwards and ...

it matters not one bit. Heres the position for end of December 1944 (axis 1941 start), oil follows the same line. So not sure why it does what is shown but you can safely file it in the box 'production system' and just play the game.

Attachment (1)

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 3:07:02 PM

Stamb

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Fuel sittuation dictates where to go next. If for some reason i will be able to operate without a fuel with a same efficiency as with it - it makes no sense.
My previous questions and screenshots looks logical, at least to me. If there is some magical trigger in a code that says: if fuel < 300k - generate enough to keep armies going, then it is a pity.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 11/27/2021 3:08:57 PM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 3:08:12 PM

Stamb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

fuel used 75k only factory, how much used by troops is not shown.

It is difficult to imagine that the troops, even in a state of non-movement, do not use fuel. There are memories of German soldiers who burned barrels of fuel in the cold to keep warm.

Yeah you are right. Even on first turns when units get fuel - that is not displayed on that chart.

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 4:19:31 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

Fuel sittuation dictates where to go next. If for some reason i will be able to operate without a fuel with a same efficiency as with it - it makes no sense.
My previous questions and screenshots looks logical, at least to me. If there is some magical trigger in a code that says: if fuel < 300k - generate enough to keep armies going, then it is a pity.

none of the WiTx series are industrial production simulators, thats part of the basic design. In the main the model works by avoiding shortages in production and imposing challenges in its distribution, again part of the basic design.

< Message edited by loki100 -- 11/27/2021 4:22:09 PM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 7:24:04 PM

AlbertN

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So long story short, Axis may as well not go to Caucasus.
They won't run out of fuel! Soviets will still have fuel even if somehow Caucasus falls fully and wholly to Axis (Don't think in this game this is even possible anyhow).

Economics dictate wars way more operations, logistics and strategies.

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 8:08:06 PM

Denniss

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Neither side should have endless supplies of fuel, they should not be able to sustain full-front offensives for months.

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 9:08:44 PM

Balou

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Is fuel the only commodity we will never be short of ? What about tanks, aircraft, armaments, supplies etc ?

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 9:26:47 PM

Stamb

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I am still interested to see what gonna happen. Its April 5th '42 and i have 400k left. In the next two month i should be out of fuel. There is no way i can get to Soviet fuel/oil fabrics in that time.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 11/27/2021 9:27:28 PM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 9:29:11 PM

panzer51

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Does oil have to be on rail-line to move around? Are pipelines simulated somehow?

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 9:43:25 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

So long story short, Axis may as well not go to Caucasus.
They won't run out of fuel! Soviets will still have fuel even if somehow Caucasus falls fully and wholly to Axis (Don't think in this game this is even possible anyhow).

Economics dictate wars way more operations, logistics and strategies.

well we've been around this many times - in the time frame of the game the Axis couldn't have repaired and connected the oilfields, by the time that is plausible the game is over (using the VP system)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

I am still interested to see what gonna happen. Its April 5th '42 and i have 400k left. In the next two month i should be out of fuel. There is no way i can get to Soviet fuel/oil fabrics in that time.

I maybe the only person to have played an axis game 41-45, so the chart in post #9 maybe informative in this regard?

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/27/2021 11:07:23 PM

Stamb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I maybe the only person to have played an axis game 41-45, so the chart in post #9 maybe informative in this regard?

Yes, can you tell what happened there? How did you stop losing fuel? If you did not capture any oil fields then it makes no sense.

I am playing GC without an early end. So in my case there is a point to go to Caucasus.

Also it would be nice if someone can explain what is going on in my first post in this topic.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 11/27/2021 11:08:50 PM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 12:50:48 AM

AlbertN

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To me the game has a 'repair mechanism' (for both 'factories of oil' and 'railroads'), a 'transportation system' (Logistics).

But player opinions differing on what's better for the game health are diffused around here.

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 1:14:57 AM

HardLuckYetAgain

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

So long story short, Axis may as well not go to Caucasus.
They won't run out of fuel! Soviets will still have fuel even if somehow Caucasus falls fully and wholly to Axis (Don't think in this game this is even possible anyhow).

Economics dictate wars way more operations, logistics and strategies.

well we've been around this many times - in the time frame of the game the Axis couldn't have repaired and connected the oilfields, by the time that is plausible the game is over (using the VP system)

Is this not still "conjecture"? Or do we have empirical evidence that what you wrote is the truth?

***** ***** ******

My test on Mozdok, Gronzy, Maikop, and Krasnodar, that repairing the rail line is a "non-factor" to these sites. Repairing the Oilfields on the 4 aforementioned oil sites are a bit more time consuming but very doable and can have production within the game scope. But this is just my test while I have been selling my house, buying a house, and preparing to move the last few weeks. But maybe my WITE2 plays different than other peoples WITE2. /shrug

< Message edited by HardLuckYetAgain -- 11/28/2021 1:15:22 AM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 6:52:30 AM

DeletedUser44

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One of the problems that WiTE2 had the last time I checked was that none of the captured Oil was getting transported to any of the refineries.

There are several that stand out from memory:

Drohobycz (6000 Oil)
Sonda (3000 Oil)
Narva (???? Oil)

Anyways, the last time I checked, this was still the case. Captured Oil stockpiles just sat there indefinitely.

Another (of many) issues raised, but ignored.

I haven't checked it again recently, but I doubt anything has changed.

Also, I believe you have to have a repaired rail link to the oil stockpile. (but feel free to double check)

Anyways, if Germany is not able to refine any of the captured oil stockpiles, I would expect to see that having an impact on available fuel reserves eventually.

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 7:38:46 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

I maybe the only person to have played an axis game 41-45, so the chart in post #9 maybe informative in this regard?

Yes, can you tell what happened there? How did you stop losing fuel? If you did not capture any oil fields then it makes no sense.

I am playing GC without an early end. So in my case there is a point to go to Caucasus.

Also it would be nice if someone can explain what is going on in my first post in this topic.

I've given you the best answer I can, you can safely ignore it. In that game I failed to win in late 42 by about 10 VP, lost the initiative and was defending the eastern edge of Poland and Hungary in December 44 so got an easy win vs the HWM test.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HardLuckYetAgain

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100
...
well we've been around this many times - in the time frame of the game the Axis couldn't have repaired and connected the oilfields, by the time that is plausible the game is over (using the VP system)

Is this not still "conjecture"? Or do we have empirical evidence that what you wrote is the truth?

... But maybe my WITE2 plays different than other peoples WITE2. ..

No I suspect your game plays the same as mine in the basic mechanics

There have been several threads on this issue and I was reflecting the views of those who know far more than I ever will about the nature of the Soviet oil industry in the 1930/40s and how feasible an axis repair (incl setting in place transportation was). In summary doable, if Germany has won the war, not if it still needs to divert significant resources to full scale combat.

so in game, can you repair - yes, can you hook up the rail net - yes, will you get much out - no idea, will it make any real difference - well from the evidence of actually playing the game - no

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 7:44:32 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Does oil have to be on rail-line to move around? Are pipelines simulated somehow?

manual section 28.2 discusses this:

also a bit in 25.2 which repeats the same point. This is all I found running a search on 'pipelines', its not quantified beyond that but you maybe able to pull it out the logistics log

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by loki100 -- 11/28/2021 7:46:13 AM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 7:55:31 AM

DeletedUser44

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Another place to look is the manual & logistics report.

Manual states :

quote:

"Each fuel factory point will produce 250 tons of fuel per turn at the cost of 500 tons of oil"

(This is the base rate and is tweaked a bit from year to year)

Looking at the base production rate, I would expect 1 factory point to consume 500 tons of oil to produce 250 tons of fuel. Correct?

A basic ratio of 2-to-1 in terms of oil-to-fuel.

------

But after reviewing the logistics log, it seems to imply a different production ratio:

quote:

NO OIL in Pardubitz for 8 x FUEL Need: 4000, City: 0, Pool 21000
LOW OIL in Hemmingstedt for 7 x FUEL (85 %) Need: 3500, City: 3000, Pool 9500
NO OIL in Budapest for 7 x FUEL Need: 3500, City: 0, Pool 9500
NO OIL in Bratislava for 6 x FUEL Need: 3000, City: 0, Pool 6500
NO OIL in Brunsbuettel for 6 x FUEL Need: 3000, City: 0, Pool 6500
NO OIL in Krems for 6 x FUEL Need: 3000, City: 0, Pool 3500
NO OIL in Zeitz for 5 x FUEL Need: 2500, City: 0, Pool 3500
NO OIL in Almasfuzito for 5 x FUEL Need: 2500, City: 0, Pool 3500
LOW OIL in Haguenau for 5 x FUEL (40 %) Need: 2500, City: 1000, Pool 0
NO OIL in Oslebshausen for 5 x FUEL Need: 2500, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Monheim for 5 x FUEL Need: 2500, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Naples for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Bochum for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Duisburg for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Trieste for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Fiume for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Bucharest for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0
NO OIL in Floridsdorf for 4 x FUEL Need: 2000, City: 0, Pool 0

It looks like each unit of Fuel is requiring 500 oil.

Or a A basic ratio of 500-to-1 in terms of oil-to-fuel.

-------

Something doesn't look right. Manual says one thing, yet logistics log implies another. hmmm.....

< Message edited by Sauron_II -- 11/28/2021 7:57:10 AM >

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 8:15:38 AM

821Bobo

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Each 1 fuel factory is requiring 500 oil to produce 250 fuel. Thats also what shows your example.

NO OIL in Pardubitz for 8 x FUEL Need: 4000, City: 0, Pool 21000

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 12:35:45 PM

DeletedUser44

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quote:

ORIGINAL: 821Bobo

Each 1 fuel factory is requiring 500 oil to produce 250 fuel. Thats also what shows your example.
NO OIL in Pardubitz for 8 x FUEL Need: 4000, City: 0, Pool 21000

I think what is confusing to me is the log's listing of "8 x FUEL Need: 4000".

I would expect to see "2000 x FUEL Need: 4000 [OIL]" or something of that nature.....

or even better....

"8 x Refineries in Pardubits need 4000 x Oil to Produce 2000 x Fuel"

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 2:51:29 PM

panzer51

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Does oil have to be on rail-line to move around? Are pipelines simulated somehow?

manual section 28.2 discusses this:

also a bit in 25.2 which repeats the same point. This is all I found running a search on 'pipelines', its not quantified beyond that but you maybe able to pull it out the logistics log

Thanks, that's to me sounds like oil and fuel don't take any rail capacity, however, it does imply that a hex with oil must have a rail in it. Am I right?

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 2:54:31 PM

loki100

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its reporting the size of the factory, so its correct, as is the manual.

The logistics log is not the easiest document to generate or affect, it takes Pavel a lot of time to tweak it. So it is functional in layout and content, easier to key off factory size than worry about comparing that data to the variables around production etc.

Or in other words, in an ideal world where 2by3 had a mass of available coding time, its feasible the rough edges get removed. In this world, all that is distinctly down the list. But if you want it to report in a different way suggest opening a thread in the requests forum?

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RE: Axis fuel usage and production. - 11/28/2021 2:57:08 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

Does oil have to be on rail-line to move around? Are pipelines simulated somehow?

manual section 28.2 discusses this:

also a bit in 25.2 which repeats the same point. This is all I found running a search on 'pipelines', its not quantified beyond that but you maybe able to pull it out the logistics log

Thanks, that's to me sounds like oil and fuel don't take any rail capacity, however, it does imply that a hex with oil must have a rail in it. Am I right?

partly, I think at both ends of the chain must be a rail hex. So a rail in the producing hex and a rail in the receiving hex, if that is met then 50% is moved for free and the other 50% generates rail usage.

cities that are off the rail grid but need oil/fuel then get it via trucks

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