RE: crowd funded update?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: crowd funded update?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: crowd funded update?

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/20/2021 2:06:06 PM

Moltrey

Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline

I think he had it coming Joe. As much as I value Alfred's knowledge and accessibility, he has almost no patience with newer players. While I can understand some of his reasons, as Erik said, it isn't the best "look" to have on a forum that is supposed to promote the game and provide help, etc. to the playerbase.
In short, if people antagonize Alfred, I firmly believe that in the majority of cases he has it coming. People get REAL tired of his antics, particularly when he appears to shrug off attempts to get him to knock it off.

(in reply to RangerJoe)

Post #: 31

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/20/2021 2:15:24 PM

Alpha77

Posts: 2116
Joined: 9/24/2010
Status: offline

The best would be to ignore him totally if he does this again, I guess he also wants attention and some recognition as a game expert (no medical advise, I am only hobby psychologist

= This may also be the reason he said so often, that he knows the devs etc.

(in reply to Moltrey)

Post #: 32

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/20/2021 2:36:12 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

To the best of my recollection (and I worked with the team on WITP-AE), Alfred was not on the dev team or involved with the dev team. He may have been a pre-release beta tester? He's certainly very knowledgeable about the game. I'm currently in contact with him discussing the end of the ban and his potential return to the forum as long as he agrees to follow the rules. If that happens, to be clear we expect _everyone_ to follow the rules and not pick up where things left off.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 33

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/20/2021 2:38:11 PM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

If you go to the members list and search with Alfred, he does not appear. I think he has left permanently.

(in reply to Alpha77)

Post #: 34

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/20/2021 2:41:14 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad
If you go to the members list and search with Alfred, he does not appear. I think he has left permanently.

That's normal for a banned account.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 35

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/20/2021 7:14:36 PM

rmeckman

Posts: 49
Joined: 8/18/2019
Status: offline

In addition to reading the official AE documentation, Alfred gets a lot of information from developer posts on this forum. Pages 321-322 of the manual list the members of the development team, including in many cases the names they were using on the forum. Some of these developers (I for one have seen many useful posts from TheElf and JWE) posted a lot game clarifications on the forum.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 36

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/20/2021 7:52:20 PM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

I think he had it coming Joe. As much as I value Alfred's knowledge and accessibility, he has almost no patience with newer players. While I can understand some of his reasons, as Erik said, it isn't the best "look" to have on a forum that is supposed to promote the game and provide help, etc. to the playerbase.
In short, if people antagonize Alfred, I firmly believe that in the majority of cases he has it coming. People get REAL tired of his antics, particularly when he appears to shrug off attempts to get him to knock it off.

THIS. I have no problem with Alfred if he would just leave others alone. I have no desire to antagonize anyone. I only attack back when attacked first. That is the same situation that happened with Mark. He was attacked first and then attacked back.

That is a terrible environment for the forum and new players especially. I appreciate his knowledge and contributions. Just lay off the ego and attitude and attacks of newbies and others. All I want is to move on and have a normal forum.

_____________________________

(in reply to Moltrey)

Post #: 37

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/20/2021 8:35:56 PM

tolsdorff

Posts: 204
Joined: 12/12/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

I think he had it coming Joe. As much as I value Alfred's knowledge and accessibility, he has almost no patience with newer players. While I can understand some of his reasons, as Erik said, it isn't the best "look" to have on a forum that is supposed to promote the game and provide help, etc. to the playerbase.
In short, if people antagonize Alfred, I firmly believe that in the majority of cases he has it coming. People get REAL tired of his antics, particularly when he appears to shrug off attempts to get him to knock it off.

THIS. I have no problem with Alfred if he would just leave others alone. I have no desire to antagonize anyone. I only attack back when attacked first. That is the same situation that happened with Mark. He was attacked first and then attacked back.

That is a terrible environment for the forum and new players especially. I appreciate his knowledge and contributions. Just lay off the ego and attitude and attacks of newbies and others. All I want is to move on and have a normal forum.

You can also choose not to attack back. That will never make a situation better. Aren't you married or so? ;-)

Alfred should write poetry or literature . He is a gifted writer and critic. I enjoy the antics as much as the knowledge.

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 38

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/20/2021 8:47:47 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

I agree in that I've seen that same pattern and that's why in moderation we generally discipline whoever started it as many folks can't help but attack back. However, we strongly encourage that instead of escalating with a personal counter-attack, you instead ignore and notify a moderator.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to tolsdorff)

Post #: 39

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/21/2021 8:31:52 PM

pontiouspilot

Posts: 1127
Joined: 7/27/2012
Status: offline

Good luck!...you may get a gig as a Family Court Judge if you pull this off!

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 40

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/21/2021 9:40:13 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

Personally, I would rather post a symbol of thanks, good luck, or something of that nature . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to pontiouspilot)

Post #: 41

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/22/2021 9:57:19 PM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

I think the problem is still in the room that the engine is at it's limits, all in all the problems that were discussed in previous threads, that an update would face, haven't really gone away.
Also the fact that Erik likely saw this thread already and didn't respond to it in any way until now does also tell it's own story, me thinks.

Of course you are right that crazier things might have happened.

You know, the funny thing is that after all the roundy-round of activity in the last great WITP2 thread with Alfred taking part and more or less minimizing the chances of a follow-up and giving almost zero chance of a improvement of the existing game's code - he then went on to say (I am paraphrasing here): But if anyone is willing to come forward with the money Matrix will listen.

Uhhh... say what?! He spent all that time playing down the chance and then did a 180 at the end. I was flabbergasted to say the least. (This is where I got the Alfred input from my original post above).

So frankly, I don't know who or what to believe (or not) anymore when it comes to what circumstances it will take to make a new version of WITP happen.

All these discussions on WITP 2 are flawed - the person starting the thread invariably has a limited comprehension of the costs involved in making computer games.

There seems to be the popular misconception that a hundred dollars (or pounds, or Euros etc) here, and another hundred there will make WITP 2. The reality is you'd need to add certainly two, or (most likely) three zeros to have a chance at a viable product.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

I think he had it coming Joe. As much as I value Alfred's knowledge and accessibility, he has almost no patience with newer players. While I can understand some of his reasons, as Erik said, it isn't the best "look" to have on a forum that is supposed to promote the game and provide help, etc. to the playerbase.

To be frank, there are substantially greater issues with the "look" of the forum (Derby House Principles indeed!) that would be significantly more concerning than how Alfred is perceived.

quote:

In short, if people antagonize Alfred, I firmly believe that in the majority of cases he has it coming. People get REAL tired of his antics, particularly when he appears to shrug off attempts to get him to knock it off.

And out of interest, what have youadded to the community?

Or, framing it another way:

- You produce a detailed and well-researched document on a topic.
- An individual, without having done the research or produced anything on the topic, views your viewpoint as incorrect and promotes their own (often based on no evidence, or at best anecdote).

Rinse, repeat and you start to get a sense of the forum for quite some time.

Much as Lao-Tzu said....

(in reply to Moltrey)

Post #: 42

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/22/2021 11:59:50 PM

Moltrey

Posts: 297
Joined: 4/11/2010
From: Virginia
Status: offline

So... I have to defend myself and or put up "contributions" to the community to voice my opinion of Alfred's actions over the last couple years?
That's rich MM. What the hell does your last group of paragraphs have to do with what opinion I hold?

Why does it matter what contributions (yes, I have some) I have when we are considering whether the person in question here is just an unmitigated jerk much of the time on the forum?
Alfred's presence adds value, but that doesn't make him above reproach.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 43

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/23/2021 12:08:46 AM

mind_messing

Posts: 3393
Joined: 10/28/2013
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

So... I have to defend myself and or put up "contributions" to the community to voice my opinion of Alfred's actions over the last couple years?

My point was that direct experience or exposure to a situation or scenario often (but not always) brings with it a new perspective.

You said:

quote:

In short, if people antagonize Alfred, I firmly believe that in the majority of cases he has it coming.

My point was to drive at if you had made contributions to the community, and if they were responded to in the manner that (some? most? all?) of Alfred's contributions are, then that firm belief may change.

quote:

That's rich MM. What the hell does your last group of paragraphs have to do with what opinion I hold?

It's evident that you've not any empathy with what's taking place, so I'm attempting to outline the position in a way that you can relate to.

I would have hoped that was evident from a first reading, but it would seem not.

quote:

Why does it matter what contributions (yes, I have some) I have when we are considering whether the person in question here is just an unmitigated jerk much of the time on the forum?

See above.

The principle of reciprocity applies in this digital world as it does in the real one. In many respects, it's actually much more powerful in a virtual space than in the real world.

Worth reflecting on before you judge that someone "had it coming".

quote:

Alfred's presence adds value, but that doesn't make him above reproach.

I think we can both agree that regardless of how you cut it, there are plenty of people in greater need of a reproach or two than Alfred.

(in reply to Moltrey)

Post #: 44

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/23/2021 12:20:33 AM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey

So... I have to defend myself and or put up "contributions" to the community to voice my opinion of Alfred's actions over the last couple years?
That's rich MM. What the hell does your last group of paragraphs have to do with what opinion I hold?

Why does it matter what contributions (yes, I have some) I have when we are considering whether the person in question here is just an unmitigated jerk much of the time on the forum?
Alfred's presence adds value, but that doesn't make him above reproach.

Isn't it interesting how you just made personal attack against someone who is not here?

I think that someone needs to chime in on this . . .

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

�Illegitemus non carborundum est (�Don�t let the bastards grind you down�).�
― Julia Child

(in reply to Moltrey)

Post #: 45

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/23/2021 12:51:14 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mind_messing
To be frank, there are substantially greater issues with the "look" of the forum (Derby House Principles indeed!) that would be significantly more concerning than how Alfred is perceived.

I think (hope) the folks who had a problem with the Derby House Principles announcement were imagining it to be something it is not. I can't imagine them being objectionable if read literally.

quote:

quote:

In short, if people antagonize Alfred, I firmly believe that in the majority of cases he has it coming. People get REAL tired of his antics, particularly when he appears to shrug off attempts to get him to knock it off.

And out of interest, what have youadded to the community?

Or, framing it another way:

- You produce a detailed and well-researched document on a topic.
- An individual, without having done the research or produced anything on the topic, views your viewpoint as incorrect and promotes their own (often based on no evidence, or at best anecdote).

Rinse, repeat and you start to get a sense of the forum for quite some time.

Looking through recent threads, which I've shared with Alfred as examples, the pattern I saw looked much like the following.

- User posts a question
- Alfred jumps in with a rude or ridiculing reply
- User gets understandably offended and hits back
- Alfred and/or his allies gang up and insult the user some more

I can provide multiple such threads as examples. That behavior is what I'd call helpful or welcomingand unfortunately I think undoing some of the hard feelings here in the community may take a good long while, whether Alfred returns and follows the rules or not. As of right now, he has not agreed to follow the forum rules so the ban is still in effect.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to mind_messing)

Post #: 46

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/23/2021 12:55:15 AM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moltrey
So... I have to defend myself and or put up "contributions" to the community to voice my opinion of Alfred's actions over the last couple years?
That's rich MM. What the hell does your last group of paragraphs have to do with what opinion I hold?

Why does it matter what contributions (yes, I have some) I have when we are considering whether the person in question here is just an unmitigated jerk much of the time on the forum?
Alfred's presence adds value, but that doesn't make him above reproach.

Keep things civil please. There is no prerequisite here for voicing an opinion, but the forum rules require civility. You can speak about someone and their behavior without using personal insults and I agree it's bad form as well to do this with someone who is absent due to a ban.

For example, you can say Alfred has at times been rude or insulting, which is true, without using pejoratives.

Regards,

- Erik

< Message edited by Erik Rutins -- 11/23/2021 12:57:04 AM >

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Moltrey)

Post #: 47

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/23/2021 2:07:28 AM

rustysi

Posts: 7472
Joined: 2/21/2012
From: LI, NY
Status: offline

OK, I've attempted to stay out of this, but I need to add my .02. I stay away from Anti-Social Media like the plague. I come here because I love the game and for the most part the attacks don't exist on these pages.

What does flare up occasionally usually consists of someone posting something that is either incorrect or quotes some 'Forum Lore'. Then when this individual is proven to be in error, they insist they are correct. These corrections normally show where they are incorrect.

I have seen Alfred, at times interject, gruffly, telling said individual that even when the evidence proves them wrong, they still insist they are correct. I mean there are times I feel the same way, but I've learn long ago 'don't argue with my mom, or crazy people'.

Myself, I've made a number of false posts on these pages, and when I've realized it I've gone back and corrected them. At times these have been from guidance I've received from Alfred, and Simon, who has been banned. Both have been gruff with posters, but it seems to me to be those that are somewhat 'closed off'.

All I can say that these two have been some of the consistent 'gurus' on these pages for years, and seem to work with you if you work with them. They have helped myself tremendously, both in 'public' and with PM's.

Now I've been eating into my game time, and Hogan's Heroes is on, so I've gotta go.

_____________________________

It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once. Hume

In every party there is one member who by his all-too-devout pronouncement of the party principles provokes the others to apostasy. Nietzsche

Cave ab homine unius libri. Ltn Prvb

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 48

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/23/2021 2:31:56 AM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rustysi

OK, I've attempted to stay out of this, but I need to add my .02. I stay away from Anti-Social Media like the plague. I come here because I love the game and for the most part the attacks don't exist on these pages.

What does flare up occasionally usually consists of someone posting something that is either incorrect or quotes some 'Forum Lore'. Then when this individual is proven to be in error, they insist they are correct. These corrections normally show where they are incorrect.

I have seen Alfred, at times interject, gruffly, telling said individual that even when the evidence proves them wrong, they still insist they are correct. I mean there are times I feel the same way, but I've learn long ago 'don't argue with my mom, or crazy people'.

Myself, I've made a number of false posts on these pages, and when I've realized it I've gone back and corrected them. At times these have been from guidance I've received from Alfred, and Simon, who has been banned. Both have been gruff with posters, but it seems to me to be those that are somewhat 'closed off'.

All I can say that these two have been some of the consistent 'gurus' on these pages for years, and seem to work with you if you work with them. They have helped myself tremendously, both in 'public' and with PM's.

Now I've been eating into my game time, and Hogan's Heroes is on, so I've gotta go.

Do you mean Symon? I had forgotten about him what was he banned for?

As for me I have never said I was right and Alfred was wrong about the game ever. I completely respect his knowledge of the game. Never had a problem with that. I don't claim to be an expert on any of it I was just simply asking questions.

So I've seen both. People fighting with Alred over who is right and wrong about the game and he insulted them or people fighting with Alfred because they asked a question and he insulted them. Neither goes well.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 11/23/2021 2:40:08 AM >

_____________________________

(in reply to rustysi)

Post #: 49

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/29/2021 6:37:54 PM

bwheatley

Posts: 3650
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ggeilman

I doubt you would even get people to agree on the basis for the update. I for one was less than impressed with WITE2. The air war is over complicated and oversimplified both at the same time. I still don't get what is wrong with air units? I didn't like WITW due to its air system but at least with the Strategic Air War it at least made some sense, but not on the eastern front. I would have preferred it to be handled separately and don't get me started on the supply system. I was all excited about the update and bought the deluxe edition with the hardback manual, but by the time it came I was already disillusioned. WITPAE is a grognard's dream.

In the spirit of constructiveness, wit* series moving from single days to weeks in the WITE/W/2 series really is not my cup of tea. I get that some people want to finish a campaign in less than a year but when you do a week turn w/o the ability to watch the turn play out in a replay like you get with WITP it just never leads me to a good place. The lack of a replay makes it basically impossible to track the way a turn unfolded, in my brain at least.

Though I've been holding out hope that Steel Tigers will rejuvenate the old school genre and get people pumped about that style game again. I just hope it doesn't over simplify what made SP & SP WAW some of the best wargaming of my lifetime.
The number of times i'd be doing a pacific generated campaign and swear at the japanese never surrendering and just charging you. So different then a German vs Soviet mission.

All of that said I know I'm getting closer to "older" end of wargaming so I understand that I'm no longer the core demographic. Though I think i always will approach something constructively and give new things a try. I support Matrix still after 20 years because when i was a youngster it was Matrix or battlefront if you wanted any decent wargaming games.

I agree that WITPAE took what could be better with WITP and made it a lot better. I've taken stabs at building my own version of it but like others have said it's a full time job. :)

Whenever I become independently wealthy though I know I'll be working on that full time. I know it's an incredibly hard thing to build an engine that tries to faithfully run realistic combat and that's a tough nut to crack. I trust with folks like Matrix/Slitherine they actually have in house knowledge at how to deliver a realistic experience so we're in good hands.

You're never going to win every thing you want in a game design, I just try to find the fun, and hope the fun doesn't get outweighed by the annoying pieces.

But that said if Matrix/Slitherine ever attempted a kickstarter like Pillars of Eternity 1 & 2, Pathfinder: Wraith of the Righteous, etc I'd be all over it with as much support as i could manage.
Though wargaming is a big niche so it might make better sense for them to keep investing in twitch as that seems to be helping grow our community week by week.

<3 as salty as most of you all can be ;).
I've made some lifelong friends through this community. So i appreciate you all.

_____________________________

-Alpha Tester Carrier Force
-Beta Tester ATG
- Mod Maintainer (past) for ATG's WAW mod
- Mod Maintainer (past) for ATG's GPW mod
-Beta Tester WITE
-Alpha Tester WITW
-Alpha Tester WITE2
-Alpha Tester Wif
-Beta Tester Command

(in reply to ggeilman)

Post #: 50

RE: crowd funded update? - 11/29/2021 6:52:19 PM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

But that said if Matrix/Slitherine ever attempted a kickstarter like Pillars of Eternity 1 & 2, Pathfinder: Wraith of the Righteous, etc I'd be all over it with as much support as i could manage.
Though wargaming is a big niche so it might make better sense for them to keep investing in twitch as that seems to be helping grow our community week by week.

Try Vagrus: The Riven Realms.

(in reply to bwheatley)

Post #: 51