Drop-tank usage quandry

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Drop-tank usage quandry - 11/30/2021 11:52:16 PM

DeletedUser44

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I recently had correspondence with a well-known author, who had asserted the wide usage of "drop-tanks" by the Luftwaffe during Barbarossa.

When pressed for detailed references, it appears his assertions were more conjecture than based on historical documents. (so, to present them as a historical fact in his book was somewhat of a stretch)

I feel compelled to retract any personal assertions I have made based on his published writings on the matter.

To date, I cannot find anything conclusive one way or the other, other than the Finnish Bf 109G technical manuals on the Messerschmidts they received (1942-1943?).

Color me embarrassed now....

Post #: 1

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 12:52:43 AM

GibsonPete

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Sauron_II we all understand that historical facts can be sometimes fluid when not examining a primary source and sometimes even the primary source is suspect. It happens and all of us have fallen for it. Your honesty is refreshing.

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�Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.�

(in reply to DeletedUser44)

Post #: 2

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 3:10:11 AM

ShaggyHiK

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I don't think it was the right decision to create a new topic on the forum. The success of the Luftwaffe on June 22 lies not in the flight range, but in the proven technique of strikes against airfields and the ammunition developed for this.

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Post #: 3

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 4:18:56 AM

DeletedUser44

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

I don't think it was the right decision to create a new topic on the forum. The success of the Luftwaffe on June 22 lies not in the flight range, but in the proven technique of strikes against airfields and the ammunition developed for this.

If you are trying to maximize soviet losses on June 22nd, it will require some of the escorts to be equipped with drop-tanks. But the issue of drop-tanks is mute on June 22nd. The game currently allows it.

The real issue deals with drop-tanks post June 22nd, as they previously had been allowed in the game. This becomes extremely relevant in trying to maintain air superiority over the rapidly advancing panzer forces, especially in AGC, where the sparse number of supply-able airbases make drop-tanks a necessity in order to maintain historical parity with the actual sorties conducted.

(now, there is a theory that VVS was beat up so badly and in such disarray through July 1941, that the 2,000+ Luftwaffe sorties over Smolensk flew without VVS opposition and thus needed no escorts. (in that case, it is quite plausible drop-tanks weren't used)

But what is occurring, in-game, seems to imply the opposite. As currently trying to fly unescorted bombers over Smolensk area during July would result in complete devastation of the bomber forces, as the VVS seems to recover extremely fast.

So, either drop-tanks were being used to allow fighter escorts over Smolensk, or the VVS was still out of commission and took a while longer to get their act together.

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)

Post #: 4

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 8:19:41 AM

ShaggyHiK

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How will you use tanks to bombard an airfield in the depths of the territory if a real bomb suspension for work on airfields of that period occupied the same space as a tank under the plane's Fezula ??
You cannot have a tank and 96-2kg of bombs at once on a bf-109, these are mutually exclusive options.

Specifically, it was not possible to restore the Air Force was laid in the fact that the Luftwaffe could continue raids on airfields not only on June 22.
They were not as successful in raids as on June 22 (in the game they are hyper successful relative to reality in the early days, and not very effective thereafter), but they continued to raid airfields on the 23rd and 25th.
Knocking out in the first place not so much aircraft as the airfield infrastructure. That led to the inability of Soviet aviation to counteract in the air in any significant way.

In addition, the first successes allowed German aviation to quickly advance to airfields on Soviet territory and carry out deeper raids, so the withdrawal of Soviet aviation failed. The Germans, thanks to very good reconnaissance from the air, very quickly noticed the withdrawal of Soviet aviation to rear airfields and continued their attacks on them.

The game also has the problem of intercepting a fast plane by a slow plane.
Take the Ju-88, technically the I-16 flies with the Ju at roughly close speeds. I-16 a little faster, but this is only if the German plane does not go in a small dive. Then the Ju-88 accelerates and holds for a very long time the speed equal to or even greater than the I-16, not to mention the I-15, even the Yak-1, LaGG-3 and MiG-3 are not able to reach safe angles of attack or conduct enough of them to confidently hit the Ju-88.
This is not taken into account in the game.

Here the number of combat regiments of 60+ aircraft did not play into the hands of Soviet aviation. It was generally quite problematic to hide such a mass of aircraft, and the poor technical equipment of the airfield services, their lack of mobility, forced the Soviet aviation to concentrate on certain, well-prepared airfields, which the German aviation continued to bomb.

This is what they actually encountered, as I said, it is not about the amount of fuel, but about the tactics of using and special ammunition and favorable conditions.

As you already understood, if you give out the tanks, this will lead to an alternative history of the air war, it will be a kind of crutch to get a real result not by real methods, but by a spirical horse in vacuum.

(in reply to DeletedUser44)

Post #: 5

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 8:39:44 AM

821Bobo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

How will you use tanks to bombard an airfield in the depths of the territory if a real bomb suspension for work on airfields of that period occupied the same space as a tank under the plane's Fezula ??
You cannot have a tank and 96-2kg of bombs at once on a bf-109, these are mutually exclusive options.

Did you actually play the game at all? WitE2 does simulate it and you can't have both.
People are complaining about the absence of drop tanks due to the limited range Bf-109 for escorting/superiority.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 6

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 8:58:36 AM

Hardradi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

I recently had correspondence with a well-known author, who had asserted the wide usage of "drop-tanks" by the Luftwaffe during Barbarossa.

When pressed for detailed references, it appears his assertions were more conjecture than based on historical documents. (so, to present them as a historical fact in his book was somewhat of a stretch)

I feel compelled to retract any personal assertions I have made based on his published writings on the matter.

To date, I cannot find anything conclusive one way or the other, other than the Finnish Bf 109G technical manuals on the Messerschmidts they received (1942-1943?).

Color me embarrassed now....

Good stuff, integrity is a rare quality these days.

EDIT: Actually, it always has been.

< Message edited by Hardradi -- 12/1/2021 9:00:36 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 9:01:06 AM

Dreamslayer

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UFO's on the East = D

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RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 9:37:01 AM

ShaggyHiK

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quote:

Did you actually play the game at all? WitE2 does simulate it and you can't have both.
People are complaining about the absence of drop tanks due to the limited range Bf-109 for escorting/superiority.

You do not understand at all what I mean, in the early days of the war German fighters were used not as fighters, but as attack aircraft.

< Message edited by ShaggyHiK -- 12/1/2021 9:38:08 AM >

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Post #: 9

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 9:37:37 AM

ShaggyHiK

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The point is not that it did not exist at all, but that it was used in a limited way.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)

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RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 5:56:39 PM

Joch1955

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

I recently had correspondence with a well-known author, who had asserted the wide usage of "drop-tanks" by the Luftwaffe during Barbarossa.

When pressed for detailed references, it appears his assertions were more conjecture than based on historical documents. (so, to present them as a historical fact in his book was somewhat of a stretch)

I feel compelled to retract any personal assertions I have made based on his published writings on the matter.

To date, I cannot find anything conclusive one way or the other, other than the Finnish Bf 109G technical manuals on the Messerschmidts they received (1942-1943?).

Color me embarrassed now....

well I have a lot of material on the Eastern Front and Air ops on the Eastern Front and cannot find an answer either way either.

There are a lot of questions that you would think would be easy to answer, but when you drill down you cannot find anything. Sometimes, it is because records were destroyed during the war, a common problem for German records or sometimes it is because they did not bother to record it. For example, in another game, I was trying to find out which model of Shermans were used in certain battles in 44-45, but when you track down the actual U.S. Army reports, most of which are still around, you find out the U.S. Army listed all their Shermans as just "medium tank" so you have to guess what the model was...

Often all you can do is to make an educated guess...

< Message edited by Joch1955 -- 12/1/2021 5:58:01 PM >

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Post #: 11

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/1/2021 6:58:14 PM

Dreamslayer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

The point is not that it did not exist at all, but that it was used in a limited way.

I said no pro or contra =D
Just a few nice pics.

Okay, here is my understanding of this case:
For sure drop-tanks was used on Eastern Front.
But their usage was very limited. Very likely that it was used for transfers and in specific areas (for missions over seas (Black Sea, Baltic, Arctic zone in Murmansk sector) or over terrain that has only few AF and lack of spots for landing (like Karelia).
If drop-tanks usage on the East was so mass then there should have been many documental confirmations of it (like photos at least).

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)

Post #: 12

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/2/2021 4:10:37 PM

panzer51

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quote:

(now, there is a theory that VVS was beat up so badly and in such disarray through July 1941, that the 2,000+ Luftwaffe sorties over Smolensk flew without VVS opposition and thus needed no escorts. (in that case, it is quite plausible drop-tanks weren't used)

The answer lies in lack of aviation fuel. At the beginning of the war 90% of all fuel storage was in border districts. Out of 247 storage depots, 73 were lost in June. At the same time, Soviet aviation fuel production was very low, so for example in 1940 they only produced 885,000 tons of it from 29,500,000 tons of crude. Essentially, Soviet refineries could only satisfy less than 30% of VVS needs. New planes needed higher octane gasoline (typical Soviet gasoline was B-70, and higher octane B-78 constituted only about 10% of overall production) and it took time to get industry working and lend-lease shipments to kick in. So, there was no reason for Luftwaffe to use drop tanks because lack of fuel prevented VVS from effectively intercepting bombers during the first 4 months of the campaign. None of this of course is modelled in the game, because, apparently there is no difference between aviation fuel and heating oil.

One thing that needs to be done is to reduce Soviet fuel production efficiency, it's insane 2, and should be something like 0.6 at best.

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Post #: 13

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/2/2021 5:04:26 PM

Stamb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51

quote:

(now, there is a theory that VVS was beat up so badly and in such disarray through July 1941, that the 2,000+ Luftwaffe sorties over Smolensk flew without VVS opposition and thus needed no escorts. (in that case, it is quite plausible drop-tanks weren't used)

The answer lies in lack of aviation fuel. At the beginning of the war 90% of all fuel storage was in border districts. Out of 247 storage depots, 73 were lost in June. At the same time, Soviet aviation fuel production was very low, so for example in 1940 they only produced 885,000 tons of it from 29,500,000 tons of crude. Essentially, Soviet refineries could only satisfy less than 30% of VVS needs. New planes needed higher octane gasoline (typical Soviet gasoline was B-70, and higher octane B-78 constituted only about 10% of overall production) and it took time to get industry working and lend-lease shipments to kick in. So, there was no reason for Luftwaffe to use drop tanks because lack of fuel prevented VVS from effectively intercepting bombers during the first 4 months of the campaign. None of this of course is modelled in the game, because, apparently there is no difference between aviation fuel and heating oil.

One thing that needs to be done is to reduce Soviet fuel production efficiency, it's insane 2, and should be something like 0.6 at best.

looks like amount of fuel has no effect on the ability to fight/fly
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5107581

(in reply to panzer51)

Post #: 14

RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/2/2021 6:38:08 PM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...
looks like amount of fuel has no effect on the ability to fight/fly
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5107581

no, that misunderstands the discussion in that thread.

you have to get the fuel to the airbase, which is a major problem for the axis player in the early turns. As argued there, the game is not a production simulator but it definitely is a distribution simulator

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RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/3/2021 9:53:43 AM

Stamb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

...
looks like amount of fuel has no effect on the ability to fight/fly
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5107581

no, that misunderstands the discussion in that thread.

you have to get the fuel to the airbase, which is a major problem for the axis player in the early turns. As argued there, the game is not a production simulator but it definitely is a distribution simulator

I was referring to this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: panzer51
One thing that needs to be done is to reduce Soviet fuel production efficiency, it's insane 2, and should be something like 0.6 at best.

In the current state of the game Axis can not run out of the fuel so Soviet will not be hurt by it also. With multiplier of 2 or 0.1

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RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/3/2021 10:59:43 AM

ShaggyHiK

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How did the discussion of tanks turn into a demand to reduce Soviet fuel production?

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RE: Drop-tank usage quandry - 12/3/2021 12:31:14 PM

Joch1955

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I actually have hard data on the VVS. Just looking at the forces facing AGC.

West Front had 465 AC on June 30, 369 on July 10, when it received 120 bombers and 150 other AC. By august 1, it was down to 180 AC.

West front flew 9067 sorties in July, 37% being bomber sorties and dropped 1206 tons of bombs. It flew 6,930 sorties in august and dropped 1060 tons of bombs. Depending how you crunch the numbers, that works out to an average of roughly 1 sortie per day for each AC in July.

The issue was not lack of fuel, I have never read anything that there was an absolute shortage of fuel, whether aviation or for vehicles.

Problem was a shortage of AC for the VVS and distribution issues since the supply system was disrupted and inefficient. For example, you can find many examples of Soviet tank units running out of fuel in summer 41 because service units could not supply them.

< Message edited by Joch1955 -- 12/3/2021 12:51:39 PM >

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Post #: 18