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Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s

 
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Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/3/2021 1:14:50 PM   
DWReese

 

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Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		I've been playing Red Tide, and then creating some scenarios of my own.

I'd like to get some info about Soviet AEW tactics for their naval groups during that time period, when a carrier was NOT present. Almost all of their ships carry the Ka-27 helo, which comes in many different variants. The two most popular are the PL and PS versions. The PL is their ASW version, and the PS version is used for Search and Rescue. I don't see any dedicated for AEW. I haven't seen any scenarios in Red Tide, or anywhere else, that indicate the use of any helos during that time for AEW duties.

So, my question is, did the Soviets use any ship-borne aircraft for AEW duties? If not, then what do they do for AEW? Do they just sail around with their radars (or some of their radars) on? With no ship-borne aircraft, or if land-based AEW aircraft aren't available, it would appear that they would have to turn their radars on? Anyone know for sure. Obviously, you would have to know Soviet tactics for that time period.

Thanks in advance.
Post #: 1
RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/3/2021 1:39:58 PM   
Gunner98

 

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For the Soviet version of AEW, they used the Ka-25K (Hormone B). It did not have the same capability or tactics of western AEW aircraft. From my understanding these were linked in with the various long range patrol AC that existed in each fleet and they worked together. The Hormone would not search or even turn on its radar until it was actually guiding missiles

The Ka-252RLD which came out in 2008-10 is the current version

A Soviet TG cannot be considered in isolation, the naval aviation component of that fleet was always involved

Hope that helps

B

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(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/3/2021 1:54:19 PM   
Rob322

 

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Status: offline 		The Soviets appear to have been deficient in shipboard AEW. There is the KA-29RLD which has an in service date of 1992. The database also contains the KA-31, which first flew in the 1980's but was not adopted until after the end of the Soviet Union.

Finally, there's the Yak-44 "Hawkeyeski" which was a fixed wing design meant for the cancelled Ulyanovsk carriers.

It seems like the Soviets were more interested in their Kiev class carriers being powerful ASW/ASUW platforms rather than complete sea control vehicles like the US. It's possible that the Admiral Kuznetsov would've had one of the helicopter types mentioned above assigned to it eventually but I think either doctrine or cost or both kept the Soviets from focusing on these aircraft. Perhaps they expected the surface navy to really operate within friendly air cover.

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/3/2021 2:03:44 PM   
DWReese

 

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From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		Bart,

Thanks for responding.

If I am understand this, the Hormone B is the closest thing to an E-2 that the Soviets have. Would they send it out near their Task Group (like an E-2) for AEW, or was it used just to provide targeting guidance for their SSMs? I always thought that it was only used to identify ship targets, and then it would relay that data back to the firing units.

Plus, if I am understanding you correctly, a Soviet Task Group would always be accompanied by land-based planes, that provide AEW cover. I assume that we are talking about Mays, etc. Those planes must have some serious range, or the ships must have stayed pretty close to the Soviet bases.

I guess that I'm Jones-ing for a new book to read, do you know anyone that happens to be writing one on this topic? <lol> If so, when might we be seeing it?

Thanks again.

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 4
RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/3/2021 7:27:56 PM   
Gunner98

 

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quote:

do you know anyone that happens to be writing one on this topic? <lol> If so, when might we be seeing it?


I'll let you know...

I do believe the Hormone B was for targeting only and able to provide mid course guidance to SSMs. They would not search but be tasked with obtaining a better definition of a target which LRA has found

LRA would be focused on the Tu-95 and Tu-16 recon variants. The May's and Tu-142s would focus on supporting the sub forces and ASW work I think

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(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/3/2021 8:49:25 PM   
DWReese

 

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Status: offline 		Bart,

I misspoke. It wasn't the May that I was talking about. It was the Mainstay. That's what I meant.

In looking it up, I saw that they really didn't build that many of these planes, and they couldn't be everywhere, so it would seem that there would often be times when a group of Soviet ships, without a carrier being present, would have to sail without any AEW aircraft for cover. If that is the case, then there are many Soviet ships of this era that must of had to do this.

Doug

(in reply to Gunner98)
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RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/3/2021 8:51:55 PM   
DWReese

 

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Status: offline 		Rob,

Thanks for that info. I will check it out.

I was primarily looking for info to see if it was common for Soviet ship groups, without a carrier present, to sail with no AEW cover. Your data gives me something to research.

Thanks again.

(in reply to Rob322)
Post #: 7
RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/3/2021 9:05:37 PM   
Rob322

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DWReese

Rob,

Thanks for that info. I will check it out.

I was primarily looking for info to see if it was common for Soviet ship groups, without a carrier present, to sail with no AEW cover. Your data gives me something to research.

Thanks again.


My research (limited) indicates the Sovs just didn't have a lot of these platforms, certainly not compared to the West. Perhaps cost was a factor, or just command and control preferences or doctrine. Not sure which. I suspect ships did, particularly once they strayed well away from territorial waters. I'm not sure a destroyer or frigate would've been able to accommodate the helo AEW craft due to space issues so I would guess no. The Moss or Mainstay might've worked with the fleet from time to time.

What's interesting to me though is they seem to have gone in a different direction. Maritime recon versions of the Bear for instance don't have a neat analog with western navies. Sure, a P-3 or Nimrod could easily do the maritime mission but that would take away from arguably the greater value they provide as ASW platforms. So I guess in answer you to your question, while it doesn't seem the Soviets had much in the way of organic naval AEW aircraft, they probably would've relied on Bears to hunt for surface targets. Hunting for oncoming planes though was a different story. They may've decided that ground based air search radar would be good enough but that sort of presumes the navy wasn't going to stray too far away from shore.

It also seems that they were working on such platforms though when they fell apart so perhaps this was the result of doctrinal shifts or possibly just having the funding and technical abilities coming together. The construction of a true CV no doubt helped as well.

(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/3/2021 9:26:30 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
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From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		Thanks again for your input.

The situation that I have been playing around with deals with a simple TG out in the open. My group varies from 3-6 ships, each with a different (overlapping) skill set. It's been fascinating to launch various different attacks at it to see how it would respond.

The primary issue seems to be associated with the use of radar. Activating it is like saying "come and get me." A limited use (such as one ship) being active can save some, but eventually hey have to go active, and when they do they get blasted. Not turning any radar on just means that the Harpoons can walk in and destroy the ships. What worked best, of course, was having a Mainstay detect the incoming missiles without having to activate the ship's own radar, at least initially. This meant that the planes had to be lured closer so that they could be shot at, but eventually they had to turn their radars on just to shoot, if nothing else.

In any case, I was just trying to get into the mindset, or the doctrine, that was used for Soviet ships sailing out in the open during hostile times. Gunner has plenty of scenarios from this era, and there are many ships without an AEW providing cover, so I have to believe that it was the norm. I sure wouldn't want to go around blind, though. With no radar on, and the klaxon suddenly going off, you know that the danger is awfully close by. That's trouble.


(in reply to Rob322)
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RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/4/2021 10:37:23 AM   
Gunner98

 

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Status: offline 		Doug

The Navy would not have been allocated an A-50 Mainstay. This was a PVO (Air Defence Force) asset and would have been jealously guarded by them for its primary role, air defence of the Soviet Union. There were (are) only about 40 and these would all be needed to build an AEW shield around the western, northern and perhaps southern approaches. I badly misuse these aircraft in NF by integrating them with the VVS. The VVS, slowly adopting the airborne control doctrine for its most modern fighters (Su-27 onward) were procuring the An-71 Madcap.

I think Rob is on target, the Soviets used various Bear and Badger recon AC for the task. They also had an entire fleet of AGI (SSV) with very powerful radars and more importantly for the Soviets, very capable ECM capabilities. They also had allied ships and huge fleet of transport shipping that could provide early warning. They were not blind, but they did not have dedicated AEW as the US does - the Brits didn't have AEW for the Falklands either.

B

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Check out our novel, Northern Fury: H-Hour!: http://northernfury.us/
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(in reply to DWReese)
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RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/4/2021 12:17:23 PM   
DWReese

 

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Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		Thanks, Bart

So, given that Bears and Badgers were likely the aircraft that would be responsible for these duties, then it's also likely that they weren't ALWAYS available to follow groups around merely to provide some kind of AEW function. Would you agree with that? If so, then that would mean that it was entirely possible that for a portion of the time, a Soviet group of ships would be sailing with no AEW at all. And, if that is the case, then it brings me back to where I first began: Would a Soviet naval group sail with (no radar/some radar/all radar) when a Bear or Badger was not present? From what I have experienced through testing, it was probably best if they had just one ship (like a Frigate) using active radar. That way, they have some sort of advanced warning, and they don't expose the entire group. Of course, when the attack starts, most are exposed anyway so, again, it's probably a moot point.

On a side note, I do enjoy how CMO is programmed to handle this. They do a great job of turning on/off the radar units of the ships not directly involved with firing at the enemy. It's really quite impressive when you watch it second-by-second as the scenario plays out. I've really enjoyed it.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts.

Doug

(in reply to Gunner98)
Post #: 11
RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/4/2021 12:56:54 PM   
Gunner98

 

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Status: offline 		Doug

Anything is possible, but it would be improbable that a Soviet TG would be working without support of some kind. The Soviet doctrine of centralized C2 would punish a Fleet Commander that allowed that to happen I think.

The Northern Fleet had some 30-40 recon/radar/ELINT/EW AC and another 20+ MPA. I think it reasonable to assume that anything north of the GIUK Gap would be well served by these guys, and on the limited number of times that their ships ventured in any numbers south of that, it would be a deliberate operation. The Northern Fleet had bases in Cuba, Venezuela, Guinea and Angola to support those operations.

Don't forget about the 80-100 AGIs which could be tasked to support.

The most important factor to remember is that they will not us American doctrine, they have their own.

Would they use a radar piquet ship as you suggest - sure, but it would likely be an AGI possibly sailing under a neutral flag or using other deception and positioned along a threat vector. Could they fire up a radar in a TG - sure, but only when all other avenues have been exploited and that ship is away from the HVU.

Anything is possible

_____________________________

Check out our novel, Northern Fury: H-Hour!: http://northernfury.us/
And our blog: http://northernfury.us/blog/post2/
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(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 12
RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/4/2021 1:11:14 PM   
DWReese

 

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Status: offline 		Apparently, the Soviets finally got around to creating a helo for AEW purposes. It is the Ka-31, and it has a radar that unfolds and is located beneath the fuselage. It was in development in 1985, and the first trial variant flew in 1987. After that, work continued, and then the Soviet Union collapsed.

The Ka-31 was finally released in limited numbers in 1995 for Russian use on their carriers, and some Sovremenny Destroyers. But, most versions were sold to China, and India, and they are operating them today.

CMO does not appear to have the Ka-31 in the database of the game, unless they are calling it something else.

Doug

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 13
RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/4/2021 1:50:29 PM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
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Status: offline 		The Ka-31 started its life as the Ka-29RLD, Rob mentions it above.

In theory it was fielded in 1992 and adopted in 1995. I've used several in the NF series. I think the Soviets only had about 5 or 6 of them but I use 12 as my planning number for NF

http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/kamov_ka31.htm


< Message edited by Gunner98 -- 12/4/2021 1:51:01 PM >

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Check out our novel, Northern Fury: H-Hour!: http://northernfury.us/
And our blog: http://northernfury.us/blog/post2/
Twitter: @NorthernFury94 or Facebook https://www.facebook.com/northernfury/

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RE: Soviet AEW Tactics During the late 1980s/early 90s - 12/4/2021 2:27:13 PM   
DWReese

 

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Status: offline 		Now we are cooking with gas.

I couldn't find (didn't look very hard) the Ka-31. I didn't look at the Ks-29, but this version will work just fine.

FYI, China and India both have this helicopter in their DB, and it is listed as the Ka-31. I haven't seen it used in any DLC or LIVE scenarios as of yet.

So, you put a bunch in NF. Actually, I never noticed them, but the Soviets are all kick-butt in those scenarios, so you don't really get much of a chance to explore all of the things that are killing you. <lol>

Doug

< Message edited by DWReese -- 12/4/2021 2:39:41 PM >

(in reply to Gunner98)
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