Production System Visual Flow

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Production System Visual Flow - 12/5/2021 3:29:34 PM

vinnysix

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From: UK
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Production and Logi Flow - Just wanted to put this out there for informational purposes, this helps me to visualise the production system out to Supply. Might not be 100% accurate - work in progress.

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/5/2021 3:54:04 PM

GibsonPete

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Interesting.

I am curious as to why the German repair rate is so much lower than the Soviet.

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/5/2021 8:19:49 PM

mssm45

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There is a beautiful similar diagram in the WitW players hanbook (one page guide 8)

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/5/2021 8:24:25 PM

kahta

Posts: 287
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From: Arkansas
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Nice work!

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/6/2021 12:00:15 AM

DeletedUser44

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
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WOW! This is really nice as far as form!

As far as content, there may be some date-based multipliers missing.

But still.... WOW!

----

The NAVAL needs a little more work. I think what you have is true only for the Germans. I believe the Soviet Union has a different NAVAL production rate and also have the Caspian Sea.... and another maybe?

Here is some help on the NAVAL production:

quote:

28.2.7. Naval Production
For both sides this is abstracted.
On the first turn of each month both sides will receive
reinforcements of cargo and troop ships. Germans get 1 of
each in the Baltic and Black Seas each month. The Soviets
receive 1 transport in the Black and Baltic Seas each
month. They also receive 4 cargo ships in the Black Sea, 2
in the Baltic and Caspian Seas, and 1 in the Sea of Azov and
Lake Ladoga each month. In addition, as long as they have
a friendly port for these sea zones, each side will receive
enough cargo ships to have a minimum of 5 cargo ships
each turn (the Germans only ever have ships in the Black
and Baltic Seas regardless of if they have captured ports on
other sea zones).

< Message edited by Sauron_II -- 12/6/2021 12:13:09 AM >

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/6/2021 12:15:56 AM

Rexzapper

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Superb work, thank you.

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/6/2021 2:31:55 AM

Lovenought

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

Interesting. I am curious as to why the German repair rate is so much lower than the Soviet.

Historically, Germany had insufficient motorisation and truck production. They made up for this (and other shortfalls) by confiscating vehicles from everyone they defeated and occupied. However, this made maintenance an utter nightmare, due to problems of familiarity and organising spare parts. What do you do when a truck made in Norway 5 years ago breaks down on the side of the road outside Grozny? Sometimes you can take a part from a French or Soviet truck and make it work, but sometimes it just needs a unique part that can't be found.

The Soviets and Allies, meanwhile, were working with a smaller number of variants, so it was much easier to ensure the right spare parts were available.

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/6/2021 3:17:34 PM

GibsonPete

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Lovenought yeah you are correct. Also do not forget the French truck factories who deliberately made the dipsticks wrong causing truck engines to seize up. You would have the 'Master race" would have figured that one out.

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/6/2021 4:36:22 PM

loki100

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From: Utlima Thule
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovenought

quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

Interesting. I am curious as to why the German repair rate is so much lower than the Soviet.

Historically, Germany had insufficient motorisation and truck production. They made up for this (and other shortfalls) by confiscating vehicles from everyone they defeated and occupied. However, this made maintenance an utter nightmare, due to problems of familiarity and organising spare parts. What do you do when a truck made in Norway 5 years ago breaks down on the side of the road outside Grozny? Sometimes you can take a part from a French or Soviet truck and make it work, but sometimes it just needs a unique part that can't be found.

The Soviets and Allies, meanwhile, were working with a smaller number of variants, so it was much easier to ensure the right spare parts were available.

quote:

ORIGINAL: GibsonPete

Lovenought yeah you are correct. Also do not forget the French truck factories who deliberately made the dipsticks wrong causing truck engines to seize up. You would have the 'Master race" would have figured that one out.

this is sort of modelled in 2 ways. Its the logic behind the fixed higher loss rate for German trucks up to April 42 and I think (could be wrong) the German repair multiplier is lower than the Soviets. It certainly seems that damaged trucks stick in that state for some time

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/6/2021 5:16:18 PM

panzer51

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quote:

What do you do when a truck made in Norway 5 years ago breaks down on the side of the road outside Grozny? Sometimes you can take a part from a French or Soviet truck and make it work, but sometimes it just needs a unique part that can't be found.

That's actually an exaggeration. The biggest foreign portion of Wehrmacht trucks came from France. Most of them stayed in West Europe anyway, and French factories were still making trucks and spare parts during the war. The other two were Skoda which obviously was directly controlled by Germany and Ford, also taken over by Germany. Norway most likely had Ford trucks, so Germans wouldn't have to worry that much about finding a spare part. The main issue was logistics.

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/7/2021 1:23:56 AM

DeletedUser44

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lovenought

Historically, Germany had insufficient motorisation and truck production. They made up for this (and other shortfalls) by confiscating vehicles from everyone they defeated and occupied. However, this made maintenance an utter nightmare, due to problems of familiarity and organising spare parts. What do you do when a truck made in Norway 5 years ago breaks down on the side of the road outside Grozny? Sometimes you can take a part from a French or Soviet truck and make it work, but sometimes it just needs a unique part that can't be found.

The Soviets and Allies, meanwhile, were working with a smaller number of variants, so it was much easier to ensure the right spare parts were available.

Have you read any of Nigel Askey's 'Operation Barbara: The Complete Statistical Analysis and Military Simulation' ?

(disclaimer: I do not automatically endorse all of his conclusions)

In Volume IIB he has about 10 pages devoted to auto / truck production and capabilities of both Germany and Soviet Union. Some of his stuff is interesting, but what really stands out (of course, it is BOLDED in his book) when he draws some unconventional conclusions, such as:

quote:

"Furthermore, the Germans were no shorter of spare parts for their mixed bag of domestic and foreign built vehicles than the Soviets were for their old home grown or newer licence built ones."

I think that is based on his earlier assertions of:
- 23.1% of all Red Army motor vehicles inoperable on eve of war. (citing DM Glantz, "Stumbling Colossus")
- 45% of the entire Soviet truck park were inoperable in June 1941, (no citing)
- with stocks of tyres (tires?) meeting only about 25% of demand. (no citing)

His work is a little frustrating because the data-points he uses to draw conclusions from do not, consistently, have citations.

Some of his content I find credible, but there are some portions I just don't know about. Doesn't mean it is all fiction, just you have to be prepared use your own judgement.

Oh, and he is currently mad at me because I didn't give him 5 stars. :)

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RE: Production System Visual Flow - 12/7/2021 1:45:39 AM

Erik Rutins

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Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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Quoted from a previous thread:

Some recommended books for understand the German logistics in Barbarossa:

Germany and the Second World War. Vol IV The Attack on the Soviet Union. Part II, Chapter VI (Rolf-Dieter M�ller) The failure of the economic "Blitzkrieg Strategy".

Supplying War: Logistics from Wallenstein to Patton. Martin Van Creveld. Chapter V Russian Roulette.

Operation Barbarossa and Germany's Defeat in the East. David Stahel. Chapter 3 The impossible equation - the logistics and supply of Barbarossa.

Historical Division US Army Europe. Monograph of Generalmajor Alfred Toppe. T-8 Problems of Supply in Far-Reaching Operations.

Historical Division US Army Europe. Monograph of Generalleutnant Max Hermann Bork. T-7 Comments on Russian Railroads and Highways.

From Peace to War. Germany, Soviet Russia and the World, 1939-1941. Klaus Sch�ler. The Eastern Campaign as a Transportation and Supply Problem.

The Most Valuable Asset of the Reich: A History of the German National Railway Volume 2: 1933�1945. Alfred C. Mierzejewski. Chapter 3.B The Attack on the Soviet Union and the Winter Crisis, 1941-1942.

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