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Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 2:44:50 PM

StraitArrow

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/29/2021
Status: offline

I would like to see this format and scale of play on the Eastern Front with a full offering of units for the whole war and a complete overall map of the entire Eastern Front. I prefer the unit graphics and component breakdown to other similar games.

With editors the ability to recreate historical engagements and "What If" scenarios across the entire Eastern Front and timescale 1941 thru 1945 would be epic.

Perhaps a number of included scenario's and most important, the ability to create scenario's and then link them into a custom campaign would be feasible.

For instance you could follow Das Reich or the 1st SS Panzer Corps for a certain time period.

It would be the Ultimate Eastern Front "sandbox" and I would gladly pay for it.

_____________________________

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Post #: 1

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 3:44:35 PM

ernieschwitz

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline

I tried telling you, in the other thread that you mentioned this, that this is a very huge undertaking, and likely won't happen.

Here is one reason:

You want 1km hexes. The map for DC:Barbarossa is 30km hexes, that is each hex you would be 30x30 hexes (approx), that is 900 hexes pr. hex in the DC:Barbarossa map. To put a little context on that, the DC:Barbarossa is 80x100 hexes. So what you are asking for is 72.000.000 hexes. Or a map that is 30000 hexes wide, and 24000 hexes deep.

I can make a map (and I am not the fastest mind you, but I don't have a job either), of around 40 x 40 hexes in about 3 days.. but let's say I am really dedicated and do that in 1 day. I'd be able to do 1 Barbarossa hex in about 1 day then. so 80.000 days. If I work all year, every day at that speed, I'd be able to make your map in 278 years. Someone else would then have to make the OOBs I guess...

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Post #: 2

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 4:09:02 PM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I tried telling you, in the other thread that you mentioned this, that this is a very huge undertaking, and likely won't happen.

Here is one reason:

You want 1km hexes. The map for DC:Barbarossa is 30km hexes, that is each hex you would be 30x30 hexes (approx), that is 900 hexes pr. hex in the DC:Barbarossa map. To put a little context on that, the DC:Barbarossa is 80x100 hexes. So what you are asking for is 72.000.000 hexes. Or a map that is 30000 hexes wide, and 24000 hexes deep.

I can make a map (and I am not the fastest mind you, but I don't have a job either), of around 40 x 40 hexes in about 3 days.. but let's say I am really dedicated and do that in 1 day. I'd be able to do 1 Barbarossa hex in about 1 day then. so 80.000 days. If I work all year, every day at that speed, I'd be able to make your map in 278 years. Someone else would then have to make the OOBs I guess...

Yup. Not to mention how to code the AI. Even FitE2 is a monster for TOAWIV, and it took years(!!!) for a team of scenario designers to just create it.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 3

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 4:20:51 PM

StraitArrow

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/29/2021
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I respect your opinion, but I wanted to put the Eastern Front idea up for Vic to see it. The created scenario's of course would be a scale comparable to this map or smaller.

I helped create some scenarios for Red Orchestra 2 using a Goggle Earth overlay. I am no expert but perhaps some sort of overall map that would give the scenario creator a basic template which could then be used to then create map details and various size "Reasonable" scenario sizes.

From the map size presented here I should think that at least a "Citadel" Kursk game could be done. I have a huge library of Eastern Front research books and original Wehrmacht NCO and Officer training manuals and this theater has always intrigued me.

Going forward I plan to learn to use these editors and I appreciate your knowledge and perhaps your skills will help me.

Best Wishes

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―Heinz Guderian

(in reply to ernieschwitz)

Post #: 4

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 4:49:51 PM

StraitArrow

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Joined: 11/29/2021
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One additional idea I would like to throw out there is the ability for divisional, corps and Army commanders to place a marker ie - Assembly - Defend - Attack. The markers would be colored to the division or corps color.

Then when you click on a unit you could easily see where your commander wants you to go. Ideally you could vary the number of colored hexes around the marker to indicate point or area of interest and have the ability to turn on/off.

This was standard procedure on S2/ Operation Officer maps during WW2 from Corp down to battalion level.

Thus if you clicked the Division HQ unit you would see the Corp commander's objective for your division.

These of course could be updated/changed as the battle progress's.

< Message edited by StraitArrow -- 12/6/2021 4:54:50 PM >

_____________________________

�Nicht Kleckern sondern Klotzen!�
―Heinz Guderian

(in reply to StraitArrow)

Post #: 5

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 4:55:30 PM

nikdav

Posts: 895
Joined: 3/9/2008
From: Italy
Status: offline

If you like Ostfront, I need some feedback on my DC Community Project scenarios "November42" (10km map) and "Fastov43" (5km map) still work in progress !
By the way thanks both scenarios i am here with DC4 ;)

Davide
_____________________________________________________
- DC: Ardennes Offensive Scenario Designer
- DC: Barbarossa Community Project Scenario Designer
- Unity of Command Beta tester and Scenario Designer
- Pike and Shot Beta tester and Scenario Designer
- SSG Kharkov Beta tester and Scenario Designer

< Message edited by nikdav -- 12/6/2021 5:26:47 PM >

(in reply to StraitArrow)

Post #: 6

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 6:34:26 PM

Khanti

Posts: 317
Joined: 8/28/2007
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StraitArrow

I would like to see this format and scale of play on the Eastern Front with a full offering of units for the whole war and a complete overall map of the entire Eastern Front. I prefer the unit graphics and component breakdown to other similar games.

With editors the ability to recreate historical engagements and "What If" scenarios across the entire Eastern Front and timescale 1941 thru 1945 would be epic.

Perhaps a number of included scenario's and most important, the ability to create scenario's and then link them into a custom campaign would be feasible.

For instance you could follow Das Reich or the 1st SS Panzer Corps for a certain time period.

It would be the Ultimate Eastern Front "sandbox" and I would gladly pay for it.

Tu put it simple: impossible. Scale of Eastern front is too huge, to make it sensible for battalion level combat. What is possible are operations. Scenarios with smaller maps and some hot situations (e.g. Kursk or Sevastopol could be done).
There is also aspect of moving thousands counters on map. Too many counters, to make it pleasantly game.

(in reply to StraitArrow)

Post #: 7

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 7:08:03 PM

loutro

Posts: 67
Joined: 12/29/2020
Status: offline

War in the East 2 is about as close as you will get. And that beast is massive. I have yet to complete a campaign past early 1943. Learning curve is huge and doing one turn can take hours. But it is amazing.

I think at this scale, Market Garden would be a could candidate for another series, or maybe Kursk.

(in reply to Khanti)

Post #: 8

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 7:34:28 PM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
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quote:

ORIGINAL: loutro

War in the East 2 is about as close as you will get. And that beast is massive. I have yet to complete a campaign past early 1943. Learning curve is huge and doing one turn can take hours. But it is amazing.

I think at this scale, Market Garden would be a could candidate for another series, or maybe Kursk.

Market Garden is more than just feasible with the current DC4 system.😉 Again, I'd ask you guys to point me to somebody who's good in editing graphics; I need some additional NATO ones.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 9

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 7:48:40 PM

nikdav

Posts: 895
Joined: 3/9/2008
From: Italy
Status: offline

Hi Klaus,
If you compile a list of what you need i can try
to made and add the new NATO symbol to DC4 !

Davide

(in reply to Oberst_Klink)

Post #: 10

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/6/2021 9:41:50 PM

carll11

Posts: 791
Joined: 11/26/2009
Status: offline

The Battalion scale here precludes theatre sized scenarios.

However, thats really not necessary.

Re; Kursk, well, even from Orel to Belograd is 165 miles as the crow flys, with the bulge included? That balloons to another 150 to 200 miles of coverage.....I dont think thats doable unless we do it by fronts in 2 different scenarios, southern shoulder, northern shoulder.

There are plenty of large Armee sized battles that are feasible.

(in reply to nikdav)

Post #: 11

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/7/2021 2:26:16 AM

StraitArrow

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/29/2021
Status: offline

I believe my overall intent is misunderstood. The idea is NOT to emulate War in the East at battalion scale which would be impossible to play with thousands of units to manage. Rather the intent was the ability to create REALISTIC size scenarios based on historical engagements that could be linked into a campaign that recreates actions of a division or corps.

Regarding Kursk, the distance from Belgorod to Prokhorovka is 30+ miles.

Perhaps a "Road to Prokhorovka" up the Psel river corridor could be done, as this was the decisive and must successful German offensive.

Perhaps none of this is feasible but the idea of being able to recreate engagements and perhaps change history on the Eastern Front is tantalizing.

_____________________________

�Nicht Kleckern sondern Klotzen!�
―Heinz Guderian

(in reply to carll11)

Post #: 12

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/7/2021 6:30:03 AM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: StraitArrow

I believe my overall intent is misunderstood. The idea is NOT to emulate War in the East at battalion scale which would be impossible to play with thousands of units to manage. Rather the intent was the ability to create REALISTIC size scenarios based on historical engagements that could be linked into a campaign that recreates actions of a division or corps.

Regarding Kursk, the distance from Belgorod to Prokhorovka is 30+ miles.

Perhaps a "Road to Prokhorovka" up the Psel river corridor could be done, as this was the decisive and must successful German offensive.

Perhaps none of this is feasible but the idea of being able to recreate engagements and perhaps change history on the Eastern Front is tantalizing.

So, basically dynamic linked scenarios, like e.g. in one of the tutorials for DC:Case Blue?
That's indeed different. As for East Front scenarios at a manageable scale, I'd tend to Korsun, Kanev, the landings in Novorossiysk, the southern Sector of the 3rd battle of Kharkov and a few others. Remember, pre-1944 Inf Div represented in the game would have at least 3 regimets with 3 Btl each, plus the engineer, anti-tank, reece Btl, plus the artillery regiment. So, we're talking about a minimum of 13 subunits.

Klink, Oberst

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Post #: 13

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/7/2021 12:54:35 PM

Massattack

Posts: 93
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I tried telling you, in the other thread that you mentioned this, that this is a very huge undertaking, and likely won't happen.

Here is one reason:

You want 1km hexes. The map for DC:Barbarossa is 30km hexes, that is each hex you would be 30x30 hexes (approx), that is 900 hexes pr. hex in the DC:Barbarossa map. To put a little context on that, the DC:Barbarossa is 80x100 hexes. So what you are asking for is 72.000.000 hexes. Or a map that is 30000 hexes wide, and 24000 hexes deep.

I can make a map (and I am not the fastest mind you, but I don't have a job either), of around 40 x 40 hexes in about 3 days.. but let's say I am really dedicated and do that in 1 day. I'd be able to do 1 Barbarossa hex in about 1 day then. so 80.000 days. If I work all year, every day at that speed, I'd be able to make your map in 278 years. Someone else would then have to make the OOBs I guess...

Not sure about the maths here? At 1 km hexes, 30000 wide and 24000 deep would equate to 18750 x 15000 miles! Hitler might have had second thoughts about Barbarossa if his generals gave him those figures!

Jokes aside, point taken it would be a massive undertaking at that scale. John Tiller's Panzer campaigns use 1km hexes, and all his Eastern front games,about 13 in total, albeit with some overlap, probably only physically cover 60 or 70 per cent of the total map area needed.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)

Post #: 14

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/7/2021 7:03:00 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

I tried telling you, in the other thread that you mentioned this, that this is a very huge undertaking, and likely won't happen.

Here is one reason:

You want 1km hexes. The map for DC:Barbarossa is 30km hexes, that is each hex you would be 30x30 hexes (approx), that is 900 hexes pr. hex in the DC:Barbarossa map. To put a little context on that, the DC:Barbarossa is 80x100 hexes. So what you are asking for is 72.000.000 hexes. Or a map that is 30000 hexes wide, and 24000 hexes deep.

I can make a map (and I am not the fastest mind you, but I don't have a job either), of around 40 x 40 hexes in about 3 days.. but let's say I am really dedicated and do that in 1 day. I'd be able to do 1 Barbarossa hex in about 1 day then. so 80.000 days. If I work all year, every day at that speed, I'd be able to make your map in 278 years. Someone else would then have to make the OOBs I guess...

On a side note, with a computer, wouldn't that be faster? I mean, why can't the map be generated?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)

Post #: 15

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/7/2021 7:34:48 PM

ernieschwitz

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

Not sure about the maths here? At 1 km hexes, 30000 wide and 24000 deep would equate to 18750 x 15000 miles! Hitler might have had second thoughts about Barbarossa if his generals gave him those figures!

Jokes aside, point taken it would be a massive undertaking at that scale. John Tiller's Panzer campaigns use 1km hexes, and all his Eastern front games,about 13 in total, albeit with some overlap, probably only physically cover 60 or 70 per cent of the total map area needed.

I admit he math was a bit dodgy

Let's cut off 90% of the total hexes/time and so on calculation. That's stil 27 years!

< Message edited by ernieschwitz -- 12/7/2021 7:35:45 PM >

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Creator of High Quality Scenarios for:

Try this Global WW2 Scenario: GD1938v3

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Post #: 16

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/7/2021 7:37:47 PM

ernieschwitz

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
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quote:

On a side note, with a computer, wouldn't that be faster? I mean, why can't the map be generated?

I am sure that scenario creators everywhere would love an AI able to make the maps. That would be great actually. One would need to be made for each system of maps that the user would need, but other than that, I'd sign up for it :)

_____________________________

Creator of High Quality Scenarios for:

Try this Global WW2 Scenario: GD1938v3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 17

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/7/2021 9:31:17 PM

carll11

Posts: 791
Joined: 11/26/2009
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Just a thought, I am far from getting to the point where in I can manipulate the library's here to create one, but I remember a bulge scn. in Tillers Bulge game, ( Panzer camps?) that had another SS pzr corp that got pulled from Russia and added to the German attack in WaR.....

(in reply to ernieschwitz)

Post #: 18

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/8/2021 5:35:08 AM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nikdav

Hi Klaus,
If you compile a list of what you need i can try
to made and add the new NATO symbol to DC4 !

Davide

Will do; just saw that you answered my request.

Klaus

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Visit CS Legion on Twitter & Facebook for updates.

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Post #: 19

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/8/2021 7:06:10 AM

Oberst_Klink

Posts: 4778
Joined: 2/10/2008
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nikdav

Hi Klaus,
If you compile a list of what you need i can try
to made and add the new NATO symbol to DC4 !

Davide

See attached. Panzer Pioniere, Special Forces, Bridge Engineers, Construction Troops (For OT units), The truck symbol, or the big wheel for transport troops.

Klink, Oberst

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 20

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/17/2021 6:04:43 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

quote:

On a side note, with a computer, wouldn't that be faster? I mean, why can't the map be generated?

I am sure that scenario creators everywhere would love an AI able to make the maps. That would be great actually. One would need to be made for each system of maps that the user would need, but other than that, I'd sign up for it :)

For your information:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5116863

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ernieschwitz)

Post #: 21

RE: Eastern Front Please - 12/17/2021 10:52:31 PM

ernieschwitz

Posts: 3893
Joined: 9/15/2009
From: Denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: ernieschwitz

quote:

On a side note, with a computer, wouldn't that be faster? I mean, why can't the map be generated?

I am sure that scenario creators everywhere would love an AI able to make the maps. That would be great actually. One would need to be made for each system of maps that the user would need, but other than that, I'd sign up for it :)

For your information:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=5116863

Just read it, and thanks :) In general sounds like the poster did a fantastic job. I did note that the process has to be adjusted to the terrains you want to make, which is logical, and I assume it would have to be different from each game that uses different ways of making their terrain maps. I also noted that this process would not work with historical maps ... which ww2 maps could say to be, unless you want to do some extra work and find out what is new and not manually. But for modern stuff, this is great! :)

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Post #: 22