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LCU What element are attacking - 12/8/2021 5:04:28 AM   
Norm49

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 6/5/2015
Status: offline 		Hi I am making a excel file to have more info on unity capability. One of the point is calculation the anti armour and anti infantry capability of a unit. I think some unity like support are use only in defence, but I am looking for a ways to know for sure what element are use.

A other example is are AT gun calculated during a attack are they are use only in defence?

Can i have some explanation regarding this matter please?

Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/8/2021 1:44:30 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		Watch the animations of land battles by setting the "message delay" for land vs land to a long enough period for you to see the firing by each unit.

Support squads do not fire but an entire support unit gets one point of AV in calculations if the entire stack of units is about to be routed (forced to flee or surrender).

Anti-tank guns only fire defensively, as far as I know (AFAIK).

I am not sure how you are going to use your Excel file, but I think it may be a useless effort. There are many randoms in the game engine that calculates outcomes. For example, how will you account for Leadership and Aggression numbers of various leaders? How much is their Land skill worth at each level? What about unit morale? Supply level? Even artillery results have a wide range of random damage, probably connected to the detection level you have on the enemy.

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RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/8/2021 4:37:25 PM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline 		Support squads provide 1/10 AV during a close assault.

From the manual, section 8.4.2.1:

Defending support type squads are counted as having an assault value of 1/10 for odds calculations


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RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/8/2021 5:47:42 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

Support squads provide 1/10 AV during a close assault.

From the manual, section 8.4.2.1:

Defending support type squads are counted as having an assault value of 1/10 for odds calculations



Thanks for the correction! I don't follow the details of ground combat much so I didn't know that.


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RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/8/2021 6:43:27 PM   
Norm49

 

Posts: 55
Joined: 6/5/2015
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy
I am not sure how you are going to use your Excel file, but I think it may be a useless effort. There are many randoms in the game engine that calculates outcomes. For example, how will you account for Leadership and Aggression numbers of various leaders? How much is their Land skill worth at each level? What about unit morale? Supply level? Even artillery results have a wide range of random damage, probably connected to the detection level you have on the enemy.


The excel file is not to calculate the odd for a battle just to help me decide what unit i will be using.For example i want to attack base A and base B. Base A is defended by some armour vehicle and base B by infantry only. I have unit C and D available they both have a assault value of 100. The excel file will calculate the anti infantry and anti armour capability of each unit. After looking at the excel file I still don't know I the unit have sufficient assault value but i know that unit C is more adapted for the attack on base A. The file also calculate how much support I need to bring and some other stuff.

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RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/8/2021 7:39:38 PM   
RangerJoe


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From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		Attacking against armour? Then I suggest that you bring artillery and armour to help the infantry.

Instead of looking at AV only, look at the database for the firepower of the various devices as well as the range.

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RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/9/2021 1:09:05 AM   
Lowpe


Posts: 22133
Joined: 2/25/2013
Status: offline 		More involved than merely inf and armor ratings...

for example range, device type, morale, disruption, leadership, prep, terrain, mode ++++ and you pretty much have no idea what the enemy device type is.




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RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/9/2021 1:47:56 AM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lowpe

More involved than merely inf and armor ratings...

for example range, device type, morale, disruption, leadership, prep, terrain, mode ++++ and you pretty much have no idea what the enemy device type is.



To add to the list - weapon accuracy and range - the reason US and British artillery usually inflicts more casualties on enemy artillery in counter-battery battles.

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RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/9/2021 1:59:33 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		To get what you want, open the scenario in the editor, and in the devices list you are given the AS and Arm numbers; then in the locations list you are given the device make up for the units. You should be able to input all that into a spreadsheet (I infer you are going to make a batch file to pull the data from the relevant columns on what is, in effect, a spreadsheet based data file presentation anyway) that spits out the answer for you. You won't be able to pull from a save file - except manually - because they are encrypted so as to be inaccessible.

However, I'm not sure that information in isolation will tell you much that isn't already obvious - e.g. Japanese units have poor a/t capability, so attack them with tanks.

The way the ground combat algorithms work has never been disclosed, but there are some hints in old threads containing vague (and occasionally not so vague) developer indications.

Run this search in your browser (this is set to duckduckgo, but there is a stickied thread with other browser adaptions:

site:matrixgames.com “War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition” "ground combat"+Alfred


I suggest you have a read of the old threads to get a 'feel' for what is happening, but importantly, this game was built from the foundation of a point to point game, and mobile combat in hexes is not its forte. It runs a sort of unit x unit, device line x device line shooting match, and at the end of day if brigades are fighting divisions, they tend to be gutted while the divisions suffer less disablements/losses. Combat engineers are particularly susceptible to outright loss in an assault, so much so they are almost a one shot weapon, despite having decent Asoft and Aarm values. There are techniques to take down forts without emptying your combat engineer pool, and I don't want to spoiler the experience of finding them for you, but suffice to say it is more of a rock paper scissors game than a comparison of firepower scores.



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RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/9/2021 2:13:28 AM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline 		Targeting is another huge variable that renders any predictions extremely difficult.

In a large fight, meaning multiple units per stack, during a Deliberate Attack, if you pay close attention during the combat animation, when the initial bombardment ends and the attacks of individual units are announced, you can see the Assault Value reductions taking place for your assaulting unit and the enemy unit targeted.

Because the composition of each unit in both friendly and enemy stacks almost invariably varies, which type of device targets which type of device will also vary.

Which unit/device will target which unit/device is not predictable in any way with the information provided to the player, as far as I am aware.

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Post #: 10
RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/9/2021 5:51:32 PM   
Yaab


Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline 		I think AA guns also shoot during defence at tanks. Mortars too.

Combat engineers have high anti-armor ratings and sometimes the code selects them to target enemy tank units. In a probing Jap attack against Manila in of my games, the AI used two tank regts to attack Manila. Almost all losses on the Allied side were in the combat engineer unit.

Few commonwealth squad devices undergo PIAT-isation. Vickers squad (device id 1017), lacks the PIAT label after it upgrades to anti-armor 75 rating.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 12/9/2021 5:54:08 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/9/2021 8:50:05 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline 		The PIAT had very short range (about 40 yards IIRC) and poor accuracy which put the soldier carrying it at risk as he had to approach the tank very closely. When they could, a lot of British and Commonwealth units tried to get their hands on the US Bazooka instead of the PIAT.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 12
RE: LCU What element are attacking - 12/10/2021 5:46:51 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		The PIAT did have the advantages of being quiet, smoke free, and without any back-blast. Great for using in an urban environment, where immobilising a Tiger tank is required.

https://thedetailedhistory.com/battle-of-arnhem-arnhem-holland-17-26-september-1944/2/



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