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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG

 
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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/9/2021 2:57:23 PM   
Stamb

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

T58 - Panzer Refit...

A full PzCorp was brought back to Smolensk for refitting. They're sitting there since 2 turns and are still short-cut in ToE.
Also the CP difference of 70 Panzers seem 1-2 CV and to me that is ... well AFV does not seem that impactful. That may help understand why there is perception that Motorized divisions are the true punch.

Also on the map there are Guard Rifle Corps having a CV that is 23. Given, they may have SU attached and / or values are eskew due to average detection level (Just hugging them with ground units since start of the turn).

Also - once the CCP are spent these 80-90% TOE panzer divisions will look quite abysmal in terms of might. Like 10-12 IF full rested, almost full TOE, and 0 CCP? Definitely underwhelming, I feel.

To refit these Panzer Divisions, an amount of freight stocked in Smolensk was used. I do keep a few of these depots behind the lines BUT I discovered once made, you best not undo it, or the Freight will scatter in all the wrong ways that you do not want - because the management is stupid. I had Vitbesk earlier at 4, lowered it at 1 to have it push Freight ... onward supposedly? No way. There, send freight to locations like Rostov or so - not further east toward Moscow sector which is what makes sense. So there is Freight pratically going westward first til it can go in other directions.








That are good points. I would be very happy to exchange all of the panzers to a motorized divisions.
In some topic somebody mentioned that it is better not to connect north-center or center-south rails lines. In general this supply system is pretty... random? You never know what gonna happen next turn

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Post #: 61
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/9/2021 3:08:08 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T58 - New Patch, Round 2

I decided for experimenting sake to ram again on the same hex with fresh forces, in truth allocated for other targets (but other targets have 70+ CV of defensive value so they look prohibitive now even if I can throw in 90+ CV; since a 35ish CV failed to dislodge a 20 CV).

The hex defended by 20 Russian CV was taken by throwing at it roughly 35 + 35 CV of Germans in two attacks.

Now I can easily related the 3 mighty rested and full CCP Panzer divisions of above getting into combat somewhere, pratically gaining 1 not too defended hex and being spent. Not the most promising perspective.

Here the results of the subsequent push. There has been a 3rd attack on a division that retreated but not going to plaster it there, since that unit got fatigued the first attack, retreated the 2nd and the 3rd was just routing it.






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Post #: 62
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/9/2021 3:16:11 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		@Stamb - No you want to connect it because you may use the moving up and down at times and in general the more rail the better it is.

BUT if you do not connect it, imagine that the system is well able to see a depot with X freight stocked up (Let's say Vitbesk), and that depot goes down to 1 priority. The system will sent it to Rostov or so and IF it cannot find a shortcut I suspect it will send the freight backward to Poland or so and then toward Rostov.

I've a line that goes down to Gomel / Chernigov and further south to Rostov so I assume it took that one. But it would simply have been simpler if from Vitbesk the Freight stocked there was to be called forth toward Vyazma and the like! And I cannot know why it was not the case.

In general I do not want to micromanage more depots and I'd like more automatization (I suggested switches or so that can help automations, ie, assigning a depot to have TurnA to be 4 priority, and TurnB to be 1 Priority, and that the depot can cycle through patterns. So one turn it stocks and one turn release, or to have an A A B pattern, stock 2 turns, release 3rd turn).

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Post #: 63
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/9/2021 3:23:43 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
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Status: offline 		T58 - When the Luftwaffe 'works'

This was a case where the Axis had overwhelming odds pretty much. A barely entrenched single division (That had 1-5 shown on map so an extremely brittle formation).

What astonishes me is the fact that the German bombers here did something actually (I admit I forgot the Ground Support button on... I was not thinking the airforce was needed here...)

Russian artilleries here have been highly inefficient and low in quantity except for their mortars and Germans were pretty shallow but as germans had 645 tubes present this was just a very one sided affair.

Yes this was a deliberate attack for anyone that wonders. It is a way to keep morale and experience up of some units.






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Post #: 64
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/9/2021 3:43:32 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T58 - Numbers around Moscow

It was shown earlier how hard was to take a 20 CV defending emplacement. Soviet emplacement at least.

Now this is the situation around Moscow. German troops that have not attacked are in decent shape. The ones that attacked have ... 3-4 CV pretty much. A stack of 3 divisions (yes divisions, not regiments) occupy the hex contested (which has 6 Delay on it, due to the 2 deliberate attacks) from the 3rd Panzer.

To dislodge Soviets from an X strong position will be impossible at this stage.

Another hex was gained in another sector. That was with the previous patch though. And even with that there are still impressive numbers on Soviet end.

I feel that the Moscow offensive is at a manifest dead end, no matter if I had an extra PanzerArmy or Army in general. The whole perimeter at the south of Moscow will be useless as soon as the minor river freezes too.

I should redirect the 2nd Panzer somewhere else, but it's almost August and to leave just infanteries at the side with all the Cavalry Guard corps that were sitting there...

Supposedly I am doing good - to extents due to the OOB. If I take Leningrad but have not taken Stalingrad I am pretty much on the 'historical' spot of meaningful gains. It is not 'few hexes' closer or further away from Moscow that cuts the difference - it is 'Have you taken the VP and Industrial city or not'. Sure I may have gained some more villages and towns and denied small bits of Manpower to the Russians.

With utmost chances the PzKorp resting in Smolensk will be directed elsewhere though. Where I've still to decide but my targets are:

A) Tambov - seemingly easy to reach, potentially grabbable. Also a rather not too significant gain, only a few Armaments factories there.

B) Stalingrad - am I still in time to operate there with adequate reinforcements? I do not know.

C) Leningrad assistance - Ideally a pointe toward Rybinsk Reservoir would hinder further the logistics of the Soviets operating around Leningrad if I can cut that railroad.

D) Caucasus? - This is the most remote of my ideas right now. I'd not disdain to secure Maikop and maybe hold it but I feel it's a velleity. Even before the latest patch the Soviets are growing on a turn by turn basis even if not by much. I suspect now that will have a drastic increase.




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Post #: 65
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/9/2021 4:02:21 PM   
Beethoven1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: loki100

you are spreading your naval patrol too widely - all you need is full control (2+ interdiction) of the hex due east of Osinovets


What about the hex to the north-east of Osinovets? Don't you have to have that one too? That borders the sea, supply should be able to go through there too. If it doesn't, that is not clear at all in the UI and should be made visibly clear in some way. Do ports only "connect" to a single water hex, even if they border multiple water hexes???

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Post #: 66
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/9/2021 4:03:44 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		T58 - Further 'Artillery' study on Latest Patch

I am not skilled enough to claim numbers are too high or too low.
But I can compare numbers between Germans and Russians.

This is another combat that I'd consider onesided. A not that strong Russian division in clear terrain pounced on by a German division and the Romanian Guards (Which admittedly are assigned to a Romanian leader but I may change that in time).

I do not know of the quality of the Russian leader, but I know Walter Weiss having a hefty 8 Infantry and 7 Initiative and 8 Morale value .

For reasons eluding my mind at 45mm AT of the Soviets is a real killer (Seemingly a pattern as it was the same in the previous fights around Moscow). These guns fire explosive and not armour piercing stuff?

Russian Mortars at same caliber seem 5 times more deadly than Germans.

Now if I was just to look at the final result, it may seem okay, 5:1 for men perished, and 4:1 for guns. But I feel the numbers indicate a huge swing favoring Russians in general, considering it was open ground, the division had no meaningful artillery backing it except its own internal one, etcetera.






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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/9/2021 4:05:13 PM   
Beethoven1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

@Loki - I actually did precisely that with 1 KG per hex in 2 different Naval Patrol ADs. That with an Air Sup AD before it (But I discovered that is not good if the bombers are intercepted before to get in the shadow of the fighters!)

But I believe the Interdiction splashes into other hexes.





You should be able to get up to level 5 or 6 or so interdiction, and if you get that high there is no real way for the Soviets to counter it, that I have been able to find anyway. If you are not getting that high, then you don't have enough planes, so move more there and be sure that missions get set to fly with more planes rather than fewer. The Soviets will run out of planes before you do, so just suicide the whole Luftwaffe over Lake Ladoga.

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Post #: 68
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 3:41:08 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		T59 - Soviet Summer Offensive nr.1

Worrysome news, the Soviets are bold enough to launch summer offensive - here and elsewhere (Next screenshot to come).

Worst news is that their Guard formations, after the combat that took place (Thus with damaged units, fatigue and CCP loss) are strong 18-19. Yes, that's the visual value of the 1st and 2nd Guard Infantry Corps.

Now if I think a fully rested, 90% TOE, 100 CCP Panzer division is worth 22 (As seen from previous turn of refitting ones in Smolensk)... the math is easy. And Russians are getting plenty of corps across the board, Guards and non Guards.





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Post #: 69
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 3:43:58 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
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Status: offline 		T59 - Other Soviet Offensive

Here I've grown bold, I feel - and got punished for. I sinned of gluttony, attacked some weak Soviet divisions that were pickets (shown one in previous turn) and then got counterattacked fiercely now!

We can see also the first Guard Tank Army.




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Post #: 70
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 3:48:48 PM   
AlbertN

 

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From: Italy
Status: offline 		T59 - Caucasus Situation

An amount of Mountain Divisions manifested themselves to block my supposed advance.
Frankly there is no grand desire to move further south - mostly because my forces are otherwise b usy and pinned.

Here I can make no secret that it will be a localized success to reach the sea, and eventually mop up the historical conquered cities of Krasnodar and Novosibirsk.

Which may be already an overstretch considering what is operating in the region and the new threats of the Soviet forces that are growing bold and bolder!




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Post #: 71
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 4:10:04 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T59 - Panzer Pools

I noticed in many AARs folks seem to have excess of Panzers, which seemed odd to me.

I realized there is the trick and that the Pools are rather treacherous in their show.
There are 2 different pools, ACTIVE and TRANSIT.

TRANSIT is like ... Truck Repair Pool or something like that. I am not sure to have understood well what Transit Pool is, BUT the manual says that each turn 25% of the stuff in there goes into the ACTIVE Pool, and less for AFVs in the Transit Pool. So I assume in truth 'Transit' is more like 'Damage' pool!

Please if anyone knows better, enlighten me.

What one has truly at hand is the ACTIVE pool.

Players can toggle their pools at the bottom of the screen with the various options - but in truth Panzer reserves are minimal at this stage and aplenty of divisions are requiring more tanks (as it is normal).

The repair rate seems a bit low at least for the Germans. I know they had amany different panzer types and complicated things a lot. But if one thinks pratically the whole Desert Campaign was made by recycling captured veichles and repairing for the most what they had...

Instead since the Air War is bogus, there is no shortage of airplanes sitting in the Active Pool.
I've amazingly over 3000 Fighters / Fighter-Bombers sitting in the pool. And that is 'normal' as long as the Luftwaffe is a joke and there is no real need to use it, and if there is any worth in bombing the VVS dominates the '41 advances because the LW cannot provide air cover anyhow due to overly limited logistics and ... a lot of other factors that I assume are known.

The amount of Tactical and Level bombers go over the 4500 units in the Pool.

Figures that look even more absurd the very moment I check how many pilots I've in reserve. 2250ish.

So supposedly I've a surplus of over 5000 planes for which I'd not have pilots - though a pilot could fly in more than one airplane too. On a relevant note this does not account for pilots not trained due to ... a 'max roof' of trained pilots one can have AND neither for scrapped equipment.
I feel the Russian end of the specter is similar - which instead worries me because the IL2 are flying death stars last I remember that make any flying coffee machine the Luftwaffe puts in the sky with the label of 'something bomber' pale in comparison!







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Post #: 72
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 4:35:49 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		T59 - Luftwaffe Uselessness forwarded

The Luftwaffe may be vital to sever Leningrad out but it seems that's all it's good for. Hinder naval traffic.

A quick look at the Anti-Air assets reveals that the Soviets in general have way more readyness to combat enemy bombing than the opposite. You average mundane German ID has 1 Anti-Air factor.

Your average Soviet Corps has 5 (or maybe MSAG have equipped them with AA battallions).

The problem that accrues that is that ... Germany has 'corps only' LW units as well that cannot really get attached to units on need, barring a very few of them.

Anyhow point is that even in '42 it just seems the Luftwaffe has little to no reason to be used for its 'troops bombing' capability. You'd lose your planes, your pilots, achieve nothing except a grand list of binary numbers where the most of them are 0s with the occasional 1 (besides disrupting a few).

Now with the 'surplus' one has, it should be okay to use them IF ONLY they'd not eat supplies and the logistics are strained as they're already.




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Post #: 73
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 4:41:02 PM   
loki100


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From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline 		I'm sure your comments on the LW and the air war match your experience - but it doesn't match mine. In my game I still have the VVS firmly under control and can generate devastating levels of GS when its needed.

yes you are right above the transit pool-active pool. Stuff goes into the transit pool if just built, if repaired (and has been removed from the host unit - this is explained in the manual) or if the old element has been disbanded

there are complications about its arrival in the unit - and that is why refit/big depot or refit/reserve are the best tools. Check 26.1 of the manual for some of this

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Post #: 74
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 5:57:39 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T59 - Leningrad Air Battle!

I may have done it, so I assume at least. The '2' differential is there at least!

But I expect the Soviets to have at the ready air supply and more planes to throw in the fray to raise their own naval interdiction.

I'm keeping some fighters in reserve just in case the Soviets are to pay a visit to the airfields and augumented the flak in the sector. I am also caressing to do the same to them but their flak levels are impressive.

For now I see that the Russians are digging airfields in all the train stations.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 6:07:12 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T59 - New Patch Doubts

This is my attack - German attack.

Losses are pretty lousy for the Soviets considering what was thrown at them. BUT check the artilleries.
German artilleries here are highly inefficient. Big calibers worked some but because they're BIG calibers. The Soviet 76mm is more efficient than the German artilleries.
And we talk of pratically '41 quality troops (NM dropped in July so not enough losses to have erased the experience of the Germans and it is 75 to 70).

That spells doom to any potential attack. Be careful - this is not a 'German nerf' per se, but it makes Germany not worthy to play again because the attacker will be severely penalized.

Now I'll make the same type of screenshot - just of one of the Soviet attacks of MSAG against me.

In both circumstances I expect the attacker to have used quality units (so it is, Guard Units will be for Soviet attack screenshot) and the leaders you can see, fine and fancy people with high numbers!




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 6:17:53 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T59 Russian Attacks

Here you can see the numbers of the Soviets.
These are Guard Units so supposedly better than your normal grunts in the Rifle Corps / Divisions.

But for example the same German Infantry Gun 75mm - that in the previous attack had 0.45 HPE ration ... here defending skyrockets to 10.5 and 12.7 ?

Similarly, the Russian 76mm that when defending had a 8.9 HPE ratio, when attacking by supposedly more trained and superior troops goes to 0.3 to 0.4 ?

IF this is intended I suspect the game will just turn into a trench war for the most, that is very boring.

There is not even a differential in troop quality I feel IF the 75mm of Germans is the same as the one of Russians when attacking pretty much.

I just see a pattern there and it worries me. I will go on with the turn - but I can already see Germany gone bogus.
Why if the thing affects both sides?
Well - who attacks in '41 and '42 for the most? The Soviets will just snowball the benefit of having a cheaper defence.






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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 7:30:37 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Status: offline 		T59 - Pattern Continues ...

This was in the Leningrad zone. 6 German divisions barely scratched the Russian defenders, with just a lvl 1 fort.

My only supposed consolation is that the tables will be turned IF this patch remains.

Right now I am not going anywhere at this rate of casualties. I am pretty much at risk of losing any attack I do, with subsequent hammering of morale, experience, etc.

I've decided already that I am not to counterattack the Soviets in their advances - and let them come at me, let them exhaust and then maybe do some localized counterattack only if they're very exhausted.

But MSAG learnt his lessons well and after having attacked he sends forth weak formations to act as screens for his hard hitters. A luxury the Axis rarely has.




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RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 7:47:45 PM   
IDGBIA

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlbertN

T59 - New Patch Doubts

This is my attack - German attack.

Losses are pretty lousy for the Soviets considering what was thrown at them. BUT check the artilleries.





thanks for the in game example of what German attacks look like right now, after seeing this I think its possible the nerf was a bit too far in the other direction also for all my complaining about playing soviets I obviously think germany should still be able to push and inflict Heavy casualties especially with such a local advantage

< Message edited by IDGBIA -- 12/10/2021 7:48:28 PM >

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Post #: 79
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 8:10:09 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		The artillery in those battles are still doing a lot from those screenshots, but not as much as in 08. Artillery is still causing more disruption than it used to, but given more direct fire rounds at longer ranges, other things can hit more too. I'd withhold judgement until you see more battles with a greater variety of battles. The defender has always shot and hit much more than the attacker per element. That's not changed since earlier versions. That's WAD.

BTW, can you include a screenshot of the losses to date, both air and ground. That would be interesting to see. BTW, you started the summer with the Axis having a much better force ratio versus the Soviets than was historically the case.

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Post #: 80
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 8:12:50 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
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Status: offline 		T59 - New 'concept' of offensive operation

Here I am being sarcastic in the title but that's pretty much what I can do.

3-4 turns to refit and restock and build CCPs with 3 Panzer Divisions. (The one you saw in Smolensk previous turn before to be moved. That last turn I moved AND air resupplied even if well behind my own lines)

Infantry opens up a hole in already a feeble spot (Pretty much 4 German divisions jumped on a single Soviet one), opened up the gap and the 3 panzer divisions and a motorized one from the 3rd Panzergruppe slipped in.

The 3 panzers reached for Sonkovo, hit a Soviet infantry corps of fresh formation I assume (it was only 6-6) and anyhow in clear fields. Still had to deliberate attack it. It had a HQ stacked on it. Then the same division that retreated from the 4 infantries got routed by the panzers.

Losses on my end are minimal there BUT if now I sum up the CV of all 3 panzer divisions I get to 15. Considering the start was 66 roughly. Between fatigue accrued, CCP spent - the operational tempo seems iffy.
If there was just a tiny wee bit of resistance from the Soviet end. And I still expect the pockets to be broken, I feel.

The Soviets will issue some mobile forces with Admin Movement and shank one of the exhausted Panzer Divisions.

@IDGBIA - I personally have not felt the initial Gun Buff Up thing bad. Nor excessive. I've a rather historical vibe of the situation here in general. Simply Stalingrad is traded for Leningrad pretty much. I've some more game bagged I think - even if no PvP game went past the Summer/Autumn '41 except this one, and my courteous and fair opponent is at his first MP game, only with vsAI experience. - Now I admit I cannot safely say it was the 'sweet spot' because there are better players around, and players that play also very differently than I. But I do not think there was either enough testing with the new artilleries - at least testing that I could have read here in terms of AARs - to determine it was imbalanced.

Right now I do not feel this was an intended 'nerf the Germans' - since it factually hits Soviets too. But it translates in that.

Plus there is a LOT of damage and kills that are not seen. As I've learnt above better of the 'Transit Pool', and it seems there is also a 'Disabled Pool' that is mentioned in the manual but there are no specific references to when and how those elements return.

The combat reports unveil in their 'quick perspective' what is factually destroyed right off the bat. (And there is the mysterious button at the bottom of the combat reports to show the 'damaged (destroyed)' stuff that is still alien to me).

So when there was the artillery buff it is not that the Germans were not losing troops but the 'loss' was not evident and manifest. Because it was not that magic number in yellow-orange that pops up, very visible, in your battle report.
The real damage the Germans suffered is damaged things that gets whisked away from units, and sent to the Transit Pool. It is the attrition of troops adjacement to the enemy. It's pretty much under the radar, but it's there.

So ultimately I feel changes were made far too hastily, in a rather quick way (as numbers here shown) when at least for me the ground game seemed definitely closer to be okayish. Without descending in item by item 'does it work'.

The general pulse of the game -to me- (and I underline I cannot speak for MSAG here) felt right. But the best checking out is done through PvP (from my perspective at least, AI does not count for balancing stuff - One can just up 100 to 110 or 120 if they want vs AI) and through a wider base.

Alas I am about to start a new game where I am also the Soviets ... but I suspect it won't be a long lived game in this case due to current patch.




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Post #: 81
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 8:23:02 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T59 - As requested Losses and adding OOBs

German losses may be under the 'historical' perspectives but Soviets I am quite confident are roughly in line.

There is also the depending variable of how players play - and I am inclined to agree MSAG did some summer '41 mistakes that more experienced players would have not done. But he wrote his own perspective in a previous post here in the AAR!

Air Losses are peculiar, but I'll post graphs.




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Post #: 82
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 8:28:04 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T59 - Air Losses Graph

Air activity has been pretty much abysmal on all ends, except some peaks.

From my end during Summer I pretty much just used recon, recon and air supply.
During winter air supply was the only type of mission flown.

We also played with the house rule to not use GroundAttack AD on UNIT target.

MSAG experimented an amount during Summer '41 trying to bomb railyards, and other potential targets - with some minor excursus in the night bombing; before the 'night bombing patch' hit. But he's been very fair and honest and as soon as it came out I was impotent in dealing with night bombing he stopped out of his own volition - which is a very rare case of game-fairness!

We opened up the dances for GroundAttack UNIT once the relevant patch arrived (we use to patch on release of test patches), I for sure bomber Voronhez in the last turns and used ground support much to my dismay.

MSAG left Ground Support up for some of my turns, and used it on his own, so the massive losses of May-June '42.
Right now Ground Support on your opponent turn is just a NO GO due to lack of adequate control.






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Post #: 83
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/10/2021 8:35:37 PM   
AlbertN

 

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Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T59 - Here comes the Manpower Graph

I definitely agree the situation of the Axis on the paper seemed good.

But Axis minors are pretty much brittle - and German forces tire and exhaust far too easily.

Even before the artillery nerf I was far from certain to obtain my strategic objectives.

BUT I do agree I was operating across the board pretty much and not just having a localized attack. Even if some of the zones are entirely anemic.

At the same time I still believe in a future game - with the same cards on the table - MSAG will perform way better since this was his first PvP game.

I rest in my case he's not poorly set at all on the map and that the game is well playable based on numbers. I am not sure it may be based on present patch but that's my preliminary opinion on numbers and battles.

Need to do other stuff for a while - so finishing turn later




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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 12/10/2021 8:36:33 PM >

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 84
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/11/2021 12:36:22 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T60 - Russian Offensive

The Soviets proceeded to encircle with a sweeping maneuver 6 Axis divisions. The situation by itself was not dire even without the 6th Army (not far there is a PzKorp of the 1st PanzerArmy that may have intervened and a rested infantry corp to be 'diluted' via regimentation).

I feel the move has been daring if not premature; the Soviets did some air recon but not deep enough and they missed the bulk of the 11th Army marching right there in that direction. And it was known that I had this whole army on the move to get somewhere after Voronhez fall.

It seems there is a potential of counter-encirclement of a few armoured units of the Soviets. I'll have to see what my recon says in turn though.





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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 85
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/11/2021 12:50:25 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T60 - Encirclement why?

Probably because it is the 'way to go' now. I am still exploring the new patch but the Russians tried two frontal assaults first.

This one is against the Romanian Guard division and a Germany Infantry division. They were not even well rested!

As you can see here the Russian artillery is insignificant despite their 1000 tubes of various type and sorts, and the German artillery is mighty.

MSAG attacked also another hex - with similar effects. I did not even felt the difference of the big river as geographical feature. I'll link the other and will take some moments to explain my perceptions.

Just numbers for Artillery here supposedly the changed stuff.

Though in Summer '42 I'd expect Soviet attacks in general to fail it is hard to get the right vibe.




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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 86
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/11/2021 1:01:33 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		T60 - Encirclement Why continued.

Here as you can see across the board the whole performances.

Now for Infantry Squads, that German Infantry with high experience pretty much shoots at 0.6 when the Soviets '42 squads are at 0.5 - well I feel that iffy considering how many Soviets are around vs how many Germans in general. But that's another story and not very significant.

It's the string of 0.X that the Soviet heavy hitters produce. Or better - the attacker, any attacker heavy hitters - produce.

Nonetheless - I've the perception that in these cases the outcomes are not that far from how they should have gone.

Why? Because the major winter offensive of the Russians was against the Axis minors, and to encircle a German army pretty much sapped of strength / exhausted (besides having been ordered to bunker in and even retreat 'east').

But I believe the fact one has got the bloodied nose here that induced to the encirclement.

As important notion I feel that Artillery is not really 'nerfed'. It is simply shooting way more times when defending - which may be right at conceptual level, especialyl as who attacks can attack from multiple hexes the defender has some benefits as terrain and the fact the enemy must come to them, and not the opposite. But the 'sweet spot' of how much more efficient the defender artillery is ... seems too much. I am not sure if to have a good detection level helps there. But if troops start adjacent one should have a good detection level by default.

Will proceed to explain other things - still via my own deductions through observations.






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< Message edited by AlbertN -- 12/11/2021 1:04:36 PM >

(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 87
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/11/2021 1:06:03 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I would expect that especially in August 1942, a dug in German defender would certainly get more advantage from artillery than a Soviet attacker. Looks like the vast majority of the guns on the Soviet side were 82mm mortars, 45mm AT guns and 76mm field guns. Most likely they moved some dirt while the defenders were in trenches away from harm, or were uncoordinated, etc. The story can write itself based on the results. The game by design can create a wide range of historically plausible battle results based on all the factors involved, not just equipment, but everything else as well. It's clear here that the Germans also passed most of their checks leader-wise, while the Soviet CV reduced by a lot, suggesting some kind of tactical blunder.

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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 88
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/11/2021 1:24:09 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Side Explaination

First of all Loki already explained some, in this thread, about the Transit Pool.

I've gone read better and made some research - and I still underline, I am just a user so I do not know of formulas and the like besides that I can see and read in a manual or learn through the game.

Now - here the exerpt of the Manual that I think it is relevant for the case.




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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 89
RE: A tale from '42 - AlbertN vs MSAG - 12/11/2021 1:36:22 PM   
AlbertN

 

Posts: 3693
Joined: 10/5/2010
From: Italy
Status: offline 		Explaining Continued

I feel that many people perceived 'This side is hopeless' because all they see are the numbers at the top.
Which is ... the tip of the iceberg.

So people look up there, see 'omg only 300 deads and 4 guns' I'll never make it.
Now if that was Soviet losses - yeah, bogus. Soviets have a bucket of production every turn. The Axis does not work that way.

But what in general goes under the radar are the 'damaged elements'. Which while not destroyed are pretty much knocked out.
As you can see some will end up in the Transit Pool. Some of the manpower from it goes in the Disabled Pool (which are a form of 'temporary casualties - see them as longer term hospitalizations).

Probably some players do not even realize that things get damaged as one moves a unit around. (For anyone who does not know check how many panzers get damaged just by -moving- a unit around. Have a look at its condition and status before and after moving it a few hexes. Do your test in single player, through woods, and / or mud even!).

Because people saw a 'little dead folks' - but pretty much have not seen all the wounded, injured, crippled and disabled folks - there were massive screams of 'This side is unplayable'.

Probably it would be perceived better if in the case of the combat here ... 4 Guns are destroyed and 27 have been damaged (maybe destroyed for good, some could be repaired) and got out of action for now. 301 German soldiers perished in action but ... (32 destroyed, 67 elements damaged) 600ish more were severely wounded.

Does it take another chrome?
Because I feel that component was entirely missed, as some players just focused on the 'orange numbers' that highlights the 'immediately ascertained, definite dead / destroyed stuff'.




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(in reply to AlbertN)
Post #: 90
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