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USSR Surrender - 12/9/2021 10:11:04 AM

petedalby

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LoneRunner recently posted this in the Multi Player section:

quote:

Russia surrendered in April 44, about ten turns after the last capital, Perm, fell. Even though Russia had lost all three capitals, I was surprised by the surrender. Russian morale was just under 50% at the time of the surrender and almost 60 units (land and air) were left within Russian borders. Here's a quote from the manual regarding surrendering nations:

Every turn after a country loses its Capital (or last Capital if it had more than one) there will be a check to see if it carries on fighting. The chance that it will carry on fighting depends on the number of units it has left within its own borders, as follows:
� Major Country Surrender = 3% * number of remaining units within the home country
� Minor Country Surrender = 6% * number of remaining units within the home country

I interpret that wording to mean that Russia will not surrender if more than 33 Russian units exist within its borders. But apparently some other factors come into play. Perhaps Hubert or Bill can provide more information on surrender requirements for majors.

It would be great to hear from Bill or Hubert on this please? Thanks very much.

Post #: 1

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/9/2021 3:42:45 PM

Hubert Cater

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Looks like the Manual is missing one additional piece in that the check for Majors (Majors only) also includes a consideration for the current national morale. We've made a note to have this corrected when the next round of Manual updates occurs.

For reference, it should read as follows:

Major Country Surrender = 3% * number of remaining units within the home country * Current National Morale

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/9/2021 4:41:33 PM

LoneRunner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hubert Cater

Looks like the Manual is missing one additional piece in that the check for Majors (Majors only) also includes a consideration for the current national morale. We've made a note to have this corrected when the next round of Manual updates occurs.

For reference, it should read as follows:

Major Country Surrender = 3% * number of remaining units within the home country * Current National Morale

Thank you for your answer Hubert. Sorry but I still don't understand surrender terms for a major.

For example, let's use my situation where Russia surrendered.

I think Russia had 56 units remaining and 45% morale at the time of surrender. It's hard to know for sure because the numbers disappear when Russia surrenders. But I think I'm pretty close based on data from the previous turn and combat results.

3% * 56 * 45% = 75.6%

Why would Russia surrender at 75.6%? What is the percentage that would cause a major or minor to surrender? The exact requirements for surrender would be good to know for both France and Russia.

Thank you for your help.

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Post #: 3

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/9/2021 5:57:14 PM

redrum68

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I believe that means Russia would have a 75.6% chance each turn to NOT surrender after losing all its capitals. So in the case you have 45% NM and lost all your capitals, you'd need like 75 units to ensure you don't surrender.

< Message edited by redrum68 -- 12/9/2021 5:58:40 PM >

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/9/2021 5:58:30 PM

Hubert Cater

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Hi LoneRunner,

Apologies as I was going off what was written above and just adding to it.

The way it works is once you lose all of your capitals you are then set to automatically surrender.

However, if you have some remaining land units, there is a percentage chance you might not surrender. This percentage chance of not surrendering is re-calculated, and re-checked at the end of every turn.

All this means in your example, is that the USSR would have a 75.6% chance of not surrendering on that particular turn when its capitals were taken.

Hopefully this makes better sense,
Hubert

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/9/2021 6:46:45 PM

LoneRunner

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Thanks redrum and Hubert. Yes, that makes sense. And I think it's a good solution. I can see why sometimes France continues fighting despite losing both capitals.

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Post #: 6

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/10/2021 10:12:38 PM

mbitrick

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Based on the above formula, the sweet spot for Soviet surrender is 30-40 units left in play with a NM of 40 or less. Should give you an approximate 50% chance of surrender every turn

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Post #: 7

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/11/2021 1:22:25 AM

ThunderLizard11

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Do all units count the same like a Garrison and a Heavy Tank?

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/11/2021 5:23:34 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mbitrick

Based on the above formula, the sweet spot for Soviet surrender is 30-40 units left in play with a NM of 40 or less. Should give you an approximate 50% chance of surrender every turn

That sweet spot is the German point of view haha...but based on this formula, from the a hypothetical [desperation] Allied point of view, I was also wondering the same thing as what ThunderLizard2 was asking concerning Garrisons. Do these count too? I'm guessing they do but a confirmation of this question would be great.

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 12/11/2021 5:24:33 AM >

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/11/2021 2:55:15 PM

LoneRunner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Do all units count the same like a Garrison and a Heavy Tank?

Also, do air units and sea units count? The manual just says units within the home country. I could see keeping the small Russian navy in port if they count as units for surrender. Same for France. If sea units count, I might keep the entire French fleet in port.

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Post #: 10

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/11/2021 3:01:22 PM

Pavia

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Now I understand why I am seeing that you have so many garrison units in our game.
Gee, gee ... how close are the German troops to making the Soviets yield?

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Post #: 11

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/11/2021 4:31:21 PM

redrum68

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quote:

Also, do air units and sea units count? The manual just says units within the home country. I could see keeping the small Russian navy in port if they count as units for surrender. Same for France. If sea units count, I might keep the entire French fleet in port.

Pretty sure all air and land units count (not sea) as my assumption is the surrender check is just like the various scripts that check for land/air units within a certain range in this case within the countries land borders.

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Post #: 12

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/11/2021 7:46:11 PM

Hubert Cater

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Correct, just land units and land units of any type, and they are counted the same. Sea units are not counted.

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Post #: 13

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/11/2021 10:28:03 PM

SittingDuck

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I the words land and sea units quite often. Are air units considered part of land?

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/12/2021 3:40:40 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SittingDuck

I the words land and sea units quite often. Are air units considered part of land?

Yes

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/12/2021 3:46:13 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

Now I understand why I am seeing that you have so many garrison units in our game.
Gee, gee ... how close are the German troops to making the Soviets yield?

Honestly all those garrisons I have always bought from the beginning. If I have MMPs left over from my buying spree each turn, I buy one. Since I am paranoid of airborne drops on key junctions..well, there they go. Handy to for soaking up attacks too..kind of like forward redoubt/posts. Peter the Great did that at Poltava mind you.

Also, Pavia...you can take heed too. Looks like Japan has got a few wee problems also, my friend.

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 12/12/2021 3:48:22 AM >

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/12/2021 7:16:57 AM

Pavia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

Now I understand why I am seeing that you have so many garrison units in our game.
Gee, gee ... how close are the German troops to making the Soviets yield?

Honestly all those garrisons I have always bought from the beginning. If I have MMPs left over from my buying spree each turn, I buy one. Since I am paranoid of airborne drops on key junctions..well, there they go. Handy to for soaking up attacks too..kind of like forward redoubt/posts. Peter the Great did that at Poltava mind you.

Also, Pavia...you can take heed too. Looks like Japan has got a few wee problems also, my friend.

Small problems? Small problems? Well, I don't know what I'll do with them when they start to have big problems.
Poor Japanese, you are paying for my uselessness in the use of the navies.
Of course, enjoying our game very much.

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Post #: 17

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/12/2021 7:19:15 AM

Pavia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

Now I understand why I am seeing that you have so many garrison units in our game.
Gee, gee ... how close are the German troops to making the Soviets yield?

Honestly all those garrisons I have always bought from the beginning. If I have MMPs left over from my buying spree each turn, I buy one. Since I am paranoid of airborne drops on key junctions..well, there they go. Handy to for soaking up attacks too..kind of like forward redoubt/posts. Peter the Great did that at Poltava mind you.

Also, Pavia...you can take heed too. Looks like Japan has got a few wee problems also, my friend.

Bought from the start?
We will have a lot to discuss about general strategies, there are many things that are escaping me and I would like to be able to know the reasons for the various strategies.

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Post #: 18

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/12/2021 8:15:37 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

Now I understand why I am seeing that you have so many garrison units in our game.
Gee, gee ... how close are the German troops to making the Soviets yield?

Bought from the start?
We will have a lot to discuss about general strategies, there are many things that are escaping me and I would like to be able to know the reasons for the various strategies.

What I meant was I would buy garrisons only after replacing my dead units killed by your fascist jackals. I never considered spamming them to help my Soviets potentially stay in the war after a last capital is captured. Garrisons that are upgraded, however are quite useful with many applications. I commented on this thread because my Soviets have thier backs against the wall. My OOB is massive though..and we are cranking out between the convoy (bless the west's souls haha) and Indy5 lots of fresh men willing to die for the Motherland.

Yes..if all the capitals fall...I believe I will have plenty of bayonets for awhile to hazard our tormentors!

PS..I'm enjoying our match very much also! Cheers

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by OldCrowBalthazor -- 12/12/2021 11:25:22 AM >

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/12/2021 9:02:59 AM

Pavia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

Now I understand why I am seeing that you have so many garrison units in our game.
Gee, gee ... how close are the German troops to making the Soviets yield?

Bought from the start?
We will have a lot to discuss about general strategies, there are many things that are escaping me and I would like to be able to know the reasons for the various strategies.

What I meant was I would buy garrisons only after replacing my dead units killed by your fascist jackals. I never considered spamming them to help my Soviets potentially stay in the war after a last capital is captured. Garrisons that are upgraded, however are quiet useful with many applications. I commented on this thread because my Soviets have thier backs against the wall. My OOB is massive though..and we are cranking out between the convoy (bless the west's souls haha) and Indy5 lots of fresh men willing to die for the Motherland.

Yes..if all the capitals fall...I believe I will have plenty of bayonets for awhile to hazard our tormentors!

PS..I'm enjoying our match very much also! Cheers

I'm shaking ... I messed up and the Horty event in Hungary came out: do Hungarian units give up with that event? Because if so I am lost.

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Post #: 20

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/13/2021 12:50:37 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

I'm shaking ... I messed up and the Horty event in Hungary came out: do Hungarian units give up with that event? Because if so I am lost.

I believe saying Yes to abducting the Admiral puts Hungary more firmly into Germany's camp, and you shouldn't lose any Hungarian units because your replacing a wavering government with a more resolute one. You also will get 2 garrison units (Ger) in Hungary also. At least, that what happened to me in my last match vs The Colonel.

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Post #: 21

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/13/2021 7:07:17 PM

Pavia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

I'm shaking ... I messed up and the Horty event in Hungary came out: do Hungarian units give up with that event? Because if so I am lost.

I believe saying Yes to abducting the Admiral puts Hungary more firmly into Germany's camp, and you shouldn't lose any Hungarian units because your replacing a wavering government with a more resolute one. You also will get 2 garrison units (Ger) in Hungary also. At least, that what happened to me in my last match vs The Colonel.

uuuufffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

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Post #: 22

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/13/2021 7:43:13 PM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

uuuufffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

Whut Whut? Oh no. You didn't? I don't know whether I should cheer...or cry for you!

(I haven't been able to pull a turn..cleaning up storm damage atm.)
Oy no more spoilers Pavia...We will get through this match..its far from over my friend.

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Post #: 23

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/14/2021 5:42:44 PM

Zeckke

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pavia

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

uuuufffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

Whut Whut? Oh no. You didn't? I don't know whether I should cheer...or cry for you!
(I haven't been able to pull a turn..cleaning up storm damage atm.)
Oy no more spoilers Pavia...We will get through this match..its far from over my friend.

aqui solo hay bufones

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Post #: 24

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/14/2021 7:57:37 PM

ThunderLizard11

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Would still need a ton of garrisons to keep Soviet's active - like 66 at 50% morale. I forget what garrison limit is but I suspect maybe 20 or so? I think morale keeps dropping if no captial each turn as well?

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RE: USSR Surrender - 12/17/2021 5:02:55 AM

SittingDuck

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I've not seen any repeating NM event that drops morale if capital is not held by its country's forces.

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Post #: 26

RE: USSR Surrender - 12/17/2021 8:23:54 AM

BillRunacre

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Morale will keep dropping because the continuous occupation of resources incurs a per turn penalty for every resource that has an NM value.

It's not going to be a massive drop every turn, but coupled with battlefield losses it will steadily act as a drain on the USSR's remaining National Morale.

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Post #: 27