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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/1/2021 5:56:34 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T199 5/16/43 Here is Berlin front only 4 hexes from Berlin.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/1/2021 6:00:13 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T199 5 16 43 Here is the view from space.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/1/2021 6:06:59 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T199 5 16 43 Here is the northern front showing the German line starting to give way.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/1/2021 6:09:40 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T199 5 16 43 Here is the southern front that is holding.




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Post #: 274
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/2/2021 7:38:48 AM   
fogger

 

Posts: 1446
Joined: 9/17/2006
Status: offline 		Tom, don't worry about your flanks. All you need do is to hold the German forces in place so that they can not assist with the defence of Berlin. Put all your arty in the centre and just blow up everything in your path. You are only 4 hexes from winning

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Post #: 275
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/2/2021 10:05:17 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fogger

Tom, don't worry about your flanks. All you need do is to hold the German forces in place so that they can not assist with the defence of Berlin. Put all your arty in the centre and just blow up everything in your path. You are only 4 hexes from winning


I can't fit all the artillery in the short front of Berlin. I was trying to blast my way forward but it is still slow going due to the German armor placed there. The northern front is now a series of pockets which will allow a broader attack against Berlin. Many German troops will not be available for the final battle of Berlin.

T200 May 19, 1943





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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/2/2021 10:07:18 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T200 May 19, 1943. Here is a view of the Berlin front only 3 hexes away from the city center.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/2/2021 11:28:04 PM   
larryfulkerson


Posts: 39932
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		Have you got all the Axis troops isolated from the rest of Germany....so that if you ringed the city of Berlin
all of the Axis troops except for those at Berlin would be out of supply? Enquiring minds want to know.




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< Message edited by larryfulkerson -- 12/2/2021 11:29:13 PM >

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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/3/2021 12:04:34 AM   
thomasharvey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: larryfulkerson

Have you got all the Axis troops isolated from the rest of Germany....so that if you ringed the city of Berlin
all of the Axis troops except for those at Berlin would be out of supply? Enquiring minds want to know.






I have no idea what German troops might appear outside the Russian ring forming around Berlin. There are two pockets of German forces that may have appeared as order of battle south and another east of Berlin. Other axis allied forces did not surrender so they may have access to supply there. If German troops can't assist the defense of Berlin, I have no interest in dealing with them.

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Post #: 279
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/3/2021 12:35:49 AM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		Could you guys post a screenshot of your equipment inventory at the end of the game? I am curious to see how losses and surplus equipment compare with other scenarios on the same campaign. And thanks for the methodic AAR ...and for playing to the bitter end :)

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Post #: 280
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/3/2021 3:01:03 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		What happened that made it possible to end the campaign so early? Sicily hasn't even been invaded yet.

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Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 281
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/3/2021 4:06:05 AM   
thomasharvey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: governato

Could you guys post a screenshot of your equipment inventory at the end of the game? I am curious to see how losses and surplus equipment compare with other scenarios on the same campaign. And thanks for the methodic AAR ...and for playing to the bitter end :)



I will attach a copy of the last end turn so both sides equipment list can be examined. It is very extensive to try and take screenshots.

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Post #: 282
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/3/2021 4:12:40 AM   
thomasharvey


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

What happened that made it possible to end the campaign so early? Sicily hasn't even been invaded yet.



The campaign is not over yet, but when it is, I can suggest two reasons for the early end of the campaign.

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Post #: 283
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/4/2021 12:03:05 AM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T201 5/23/43 Here is the Berlin front now only 2 hexes away from the center hex. The Germans had some attacks this turn but has not made a big difference.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/4/2021 12:06:18 AM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T201 5/23/43 Here is the view from space. There should be a real battle for multiple hexes of Berlin. I will continue to press around the flanks to keep the defense active there.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/4/2021 8:32:43 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T202 May 26, 1943. Street fighting has broken out in Berlin. One hex has been occupied and another is dense urban ruin. Note the fresh hordes of Guards units that have traveled by rail nearly to the city limits of Berlin.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/10/2021 10:04:17 PM   
thomasharvey


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Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		The center of Berlin has been taken! Urah!




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/10/2021 10:07:24 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T203 5/30/43 The center hex of Berlin was taken in May of 43. However, the Germans took it back! The scenario continued another turn so I hope that is by design and not a bug. This screen shot shows the initial taking of Berlin.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/10/2021 10:09:17 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T203 May 30, 1943. This shows what I thought would be the last view from space.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/10/2021 10:17:18 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T204 June 2, 1943 This shows the final taking of Berlin, I hope. Stronger defense forces are present along with reserves.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/10/2021 10:18:39 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T204 6/2/43 This is the final view from space.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/10/2021 10:43:02 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lobster

What happened that made it possible to end the campaign so early? Sicily hasn't even been invaded yet.



The campaign is not over yet, but when it is, I can suggest two reasons for the early end of the campaign.



The campaign should be over now. The main reason for the early demise of the Germans in 43 relates to supply. I was able to just repair ONE line to supply the entire red army for the entire war. I concentrated nearly all my forces on the Moscow front along with ALL of the rail repair units. With full supply and the 41 shock effects, the Red Army was able to advance all the way to Minsk before the Germans finally held the front. I then repaired a single rail line north and one south to extend the offensive in those areas. I moved units west mainly be rail. They would arrive right at the front in the green to continue a rapid offensive.

My suggestion to fix this would be to allow bridges to be bombed by air. This would force both sides to repair multiple lines forward as well as keeping many defensive units in the rear. The Russian air would not affect the Germans in the first year and the German air would be of only limited use the entire scenario due to the large map.

Forcing multiple rail lines fixes any early end to the scenario.


The second issue relates to the defeat of the German army. Regardless of supply this must still be done rapidly. With a map this large and units having a movement of over 40 hexes per turn, aggressive attacks to form pockets is the order of the day. Artillery is the Queen of the battle so attacks must always focus on that. Defense and attack needs artillery and destruction of the enemy artillery is also required. The defender must also avoid as much of the shock effects as possible. The dates are set out in the briefing and the German player can always check the situation report to note a shock attack coming and then retreat fast!

< Message edited by thomasharvey -- 12/10/2021 11:12:47 PM >

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Post #: 292
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/11/2021 1:10:06 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey

The defender must also avoid as much of the shock effects as possible. The dates are set out in the briefing and the German player can always check the situation report to note a shock attack coming and then retreat fast!


This is a failing of so many long scenarios: shock effects on a fixed calendar. Is it realistic for the Germans to pull back in advance of the Soviets launching their offensive? Is it realistic for the Soviets to get a bonus when the factors which caused the offensive success may well not actually be present in a particular match.

If a designer must use shock and other powerful event effects, they should consider one or both of the below:
1) effects that come in gradually rather than all at once. Want 120% shock? Make it go up 5% a turn, not all at once
2) effects which are highly variable or (even better) controlled by a TO. This means running away from the shock is less of a practical strategy

Of course, really offensives are successful because of accumulated supplies and reserves and because of surprise. If you do it right, you can do this without a shock bonus.

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"War Studies"
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"Absolutely nothing."

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Post #: 293
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/11/2021 2:22:01 PM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: thomasharvey

The defender must also avoid as much of the shock effects as possible. The dates are set out in the briefing and the German player can always check the situation report to note a shock attack coming and then retreat fast!


This is a failing of so many long scenarios: shock effects on a fixed calendar. Is it realistic for the Germans to pull back in advance of the Soviets launching their offensive? Is it realistic for the Soviets to get a bonus when the factors which caused the offensive success may well not actually be present in a particular match.

If a designer must use shock and other powerful event effects, they should consider one or both of the below:
1) effects that come in gradually rather than all at once. Want 120% shock? Make it go up 5% a turn, not all at once
2) effects which are highly variable or (even better) controlled by a TO. This means running away from the shock is less of a practical strategy

Of course, really offensives are successful because of accumulated supplies and reserves and because of surprise. If you do it right, you can do this without a shock bonus.


Aye on all counts.

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 294
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/12/2021 5:32:07 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T205 June 6, 1943. Here is the final Berlin front view as Germany has surrendered. The center hex has changed possession three times so the scenario has been called. I suspect there will be no surrender like Hungary and Rumania.




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Post #: 295
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/12/2021 5:35:36 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T205 June 6, 1943. Here is the final view from space.




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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/12/2021 5:39:20 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T205 June 6, 1943. Here is a saved file of the last turn. The Soviet inventory can be inspected to evaluate losses.

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RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/12/2021 6:14:06 PM   
thomasharvey


Posts: 1375
Joined: 12/19/2014
Status: offline 		T205 June 6, 1943. Here is a normal saved file of the turn if the last turn does not download.

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Post #: 298
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/15/2021 11:06:39 PM   
governato

 

Posts: 1079
Joined: 5/6/2011
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline 		Thanks for sharing the files! As a reference here is a great article and a good reference on tank and aircrafts losses for both sides.


Tank strength and losses – Eastern Front


Aircraft losses:

[edit]quoting statistics from "Grif Sekretnosti Sniat", edited by Colonel-General G. F. Krivosheev. The English translation was retitled and it is the classic "Soviet Casualties and Combat Losses in the Twentieth Century."

So in the real campaign BY JUNE 1943 the Red Army had lost about 45,000 tanks (of all sizes) and about 20,000+ airplanes by June 1943 (combat planes and combat losses ONLY for a fair reference to FITE2)


I did a quick 'by eye' calculation from the game files you shared and it seems that by JUNE 1943 Red Army tank losses were about 33,000 and total VVS air losses: ~ 8000 planes. There is also an excess of trucks while in 1943 the Red Army was seriously lacking in logistics.

So overall Soviet tank and aircraft losses in the scenario were too low and there were too many trucks...

I suspect that a similar situation holds true for the German side...

This is not a criticism of the scenario per se, FITE2 is great. Nor I am implying that the way the scenario was played created such low losses. The same issue of low losses FOR BOTH TANKS AND PLANES shows up in other TOAW scenarios of the Russian War as a whole

I think the issue is that the TOAW engine does not allow for equipment breakdowns and for long scenarios this ends up in a severe underestimate of equipment vs infantry losses. Something to keep in mind in future revisions!

< Message edited by governato -- 12/16/2021 3:04:54 AM >

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Post #: 299
RE: FITE2 EARLY START - 12/16/2021 1:33:01 AM   
Lobster


Posts: 5104
Joined: 8/8/2013
From: Third rock from the Sun.
Status: offline 		Aircraft losses were 20,000+ by the end of 1941. If the Soviet player isn't forced to fly in 1941 the losses will hardly be historical. Something is terribly wrong when the Soviet can just park the entire air force.

< Message edited by Lobster -- 12/16/2021 1:36:14 AM >

_____________________________

http://www.operationbarbarossa.net/

Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity and I’m not sure about the universe-Einstein

Q: What do you call a boomerang that doesn’t come back?
A: A stick.

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Post #: 300
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