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Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 1:02:04 AM   
Macquarrie1999


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Joined: 4/29/2021
From: California
Status: offline 		I had a transport taskforce run out of fuel, and they took a lot of system damage before I was able to get them into a port. The highest one has 93 system damage. I set them to unload, and when I played the next turn I had three of the transports with the highest system sink while docked. I thought system damage could only happen at sea and that it required 100 system damage to sink a ship, am I wrong? Why did my ships sink?
Post #: 1
RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 1:45:38 AM   
RangerJoe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macquarrie1999

I had a transport taskforce run out of fuel, and they took a lot of system damage before I was able to get them into a port. The highest one has 93 system damage. I set them to unload, and when I played the next turn I had three of the transports with the highest system sink while docked. I thought system damage could only happen at sea and that it required 100 system damage to sink a ship, am I wrong? Why did my ships sink?


Do you have a picture?

Maybe those ships had more damage. Next time this happens, send some ships to refuel them.

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 2:03:43 AM   
dr.hal


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From: Covington LA via Montreal!
Status: offline 		Hi Macquarrie, welcome to the forum! Running out of fuel is a difficult situation and anyone who has had time at sea (other than on a sailboat) knows it might just not end well. The ability to move "one hex" a day is an abstract reflection of towing the ship by the game (it doesn't have ocean going tugs, although they certainly existed, just ask any Dutchman). That whole concept can be very hard on a ship and it's "systems".

As you may know, systems damage is an abstraction of what might happen to the internal ships support systems, such as damage control, communications, ventilation, fuel and other liquid transfers, fire fighting, etc. etc., in short LOTS of differing but interrelated "systems" that support the operation of the vessel (OR are NOT in operation due to having no fuel, such as pumps, etc.). Systems damage can be as a result of combat, or by collision, or even by overhaul (when you "upgrade" a ship you sometimes see "systems" damage accumulate, meaning the ship is having some of its internals reorganized). In your instance it was a result of running out of fuel. Due to "systems" interconnectedness there can be a "cascading" effect which might result in further damage. This is assessed during the turn at specific points. It's reassessed each turn (reflecting the damage control efforts of the crew coupled to the state of the various systems on the ship). If the crew skill level is low, such as in a merchant ship, you will most likely see the damage rise quickly. This can happen to warships no matter where they are as well. There are more assets while in port that the ship's crew can utilize BUT the ship could still suffer cascading impact if the damage is severe. Once the number reaches 100, it's basically saying the ships internal systems such as damage control are lost and that foretells of the ship going down. Systems damage is directly linked to other forms of damage and it's failure could immediately impact the survivability of the vessel (for example a key bulkhead gives way and the ship suffers uncontrollable flooding, or no electricity to run your pumps thus not controlling that flooding). I've tried to put this whole concept in "real world" not game terms to paint the picture that the abstraction of the game is trying to reflect. I hope this helps.

< Message edited by dr.hal -- 12/15/2021 2:05:14 AM >

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 2:49:07 AM   
Macquarrie1999


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Joined: 4/29/2021
From: California
Status: offline 		Here is the ship with the most damage. This line in the manual is what has me confused,
"6.5.1 OPERATIONAL DAMAGE AND REPAIRS AT SEA
Whenever a ship is at sea (not docked), it has a chance of suffering system damage due to
wear and tear on the ship."




Attachment (1)

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 3:16:21 AM   
dr.hal


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Status: offline 		I see your point. I've had ships suffer systems damage in port, but they had other damage as well. Thus my comments about cascading. There might have been a change that nullifies the manual in this respect. But I'm not sure. Sorry.

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 3:17:30 AM   
geofflambert


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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 6:00:08 AM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		Run the turn again, but this time

(a) put any ship without troops on board out of TF and into port (and unload it later when it has fixed some damage). You can even put them pierside still loaded.

(b) Relieve Captain Neal H. and replace him with someone with decent numbers, particularly leadership and admin. I forget which one of those most affects repairs.

Edit - I checked, and found an old post about leader skills were a developer once said:

quote:

Admin, inspiration, leadership, work within sub, and sub/sub, routines that probably aren't of interest to you folks anyway, since they have little to no impact on detect, react, or combat, so I'll leave them alone.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2350193

The bottom line, per Alfred's ship repair guide 101, is that ships in TF carrying out crew-only 'readiness repair' of system damage, is that number of repair points generated by the crew is limited by an equation. They get no help from the port unless they drop out of the TF. The equation does however, take into account crew experience. Therefore you want a leader who provokes experience increases, which in turn affect repairs.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 12/15/2021 6:43:03 AM >

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 6:30:54 AM   
Macquarrie1999


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Joined: 4/29/2021
From: California
Status: offline 		Replacing the commanders didn't work. All three of my transports, one with system damage as low as 88, still sunk. I might just have to take the loss, although it stings.

I guess the manual is wrong, or there is something about system damage that I just don't understand.

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Post #: 8
RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 7:16:02 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macquarrie1999

Replacing the commanders didn't work. All three of my transports, one with system damage as low as 88, still sunk. I might just have to take the loss, although it stings.

I guess the manual is wrong, or there is something about system damage that I just don't understand.


There are places where things have changed since the manual was printed (section 8.5 on Partisans came up a couple of days ago). A search of the patch notes doesn't reveal that to be the case here.

In the preamble to 6.5 it says this:

quote:

The amount of repairs made as well as the likelihood of additional damage is impacted by the
amount of current damage, the experience of the crew, and if the ship is in port, the size of
that port.


SS Mariposa had significant damage, I suspect has an inexperienced crew, and is not "in port" in the sense that the damage repair routines apply that phrase; I.E., because it is in TF it is not able to get help from the port.



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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 10:06:37 AM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		That has to be those events like "catastrophic failure" in repairs etc. I think they happen more when your ship is so heavily damaged. Sys 93 is very heavy damage, basically nothing in ship works...

It should say something in Operations Report if that is the case.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 12/15/2021 12:30:50 PM >

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 11:45:20 AM   
btd64


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Status: offline 		Don't worry about the ships or supply. As the allies you have plenty of both. Both keep in mind that if it happens again, send out some long endurance ships to meet up with them and refuel. One other thing, pay attention to the ranges of the ships in the TF. If the numbers in the upper left area are all red then you need to have a refuel TF or a base along the way to refuel with....GP

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 3:00:47 PM   
Kull


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Status: offline 		What's happening is the ships are "doing something", in this case unloading troops. They might be "in a port", but they aren't disbanded. As a test, you could try to leave them docked and inactive (no unloading) and see if the sys damage slowly begins to repair. If they were only carrying supply you could disband and save them, but the troop component won't allow that.

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 3:24:02 PM   
Trugrit


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From: North Carolina
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Macquarrie1999

I had a transport taskforce run out of fuel, and they took a lot of system damage before I was able to get them into a port. The highest one has 93 system damage. I set them to unload, and when I played the next turn I had three of the transports with the highest system sink while docked. I thought system damage could only happen at sea and that it required 100 system damage to sink a ship, am I wrong? Why did my ships sink?

Yes, you are wrong.

Where did you get the idea that system damage has to be 100 for the ship to sink?
The question is what was the flotation damage?

Look at your manual in Section 6.5 (Page 132) about system damage.
System damage is a number between zero and 99. It never goes to 100.
System damage does not sink ships, water onboard can.

It is interesting to speculate on why it never goes to 100.
The manual says that 99 indicates that the ship’s systems are 99% damaged.
(effectively out of action) but not entirely out? 1% left?
Maybe because the devs still wanted the Radar to work?

Note: You can’t force the Editor to set the System Damage to 100.

Anyway…..93 system damage means that your pumps are not
working very well and the water may be winning the race.

It is when flotation damage goes to 100 that a ship sinks.
You have apparently taken enough flotation damage to sink.

The combination of system damage and flotation damage can be fatal.

Note that ships in pier-side repair can sink.

It is rare. What happens in the real world is that the pier has pumps that
can be used to pump out the water if you can hook them up soon enough.

You can check this out by using the Editor.
I went into the Editor and opened the Downfall Scenario. At Lihue there are some DE’s
The Dempsey is ship 4000 which I set at 93 for Sys and 99 for Flt and created a new scenario.
I started the scenario in Head to Head and put the Dempsey in pier-side repair to start.
I ran the turn and the Dempsey sank while in pier-side repair.

Here is a post on system damage:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=3354880
wdolson:
“If I remember right, there are random checks against the Sys damage for various things
and the higher the Sys damage, the more likely you are to fail the roll.”

So there is a check each turn. A Grigsby random or otherwise, probably on a graded scale.
In your case it may be that the System damage never got to 99 and your ships sank anyway.

The other thing you want to look at are repair points.
Manual Section 14.2.3 is one place where they are described.
You can also look at Alfred’s guide for a description.

Alfred uses his own term “Repair Workers (RW)
The game uses the term “Port Assist Operations”

The bottom line is that there may be a limited number of
repair points available per 24 hour period.

So it may be that you brought in a bunch of damaged ships and
the port just could not get around to repairs on all of them in one day.
There was just not enough time to make a difference.


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Post #: 13
RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 3:52:55 PM   
Macquarrie1999


Posts: 57
Joined: 4/29/2021
From: California
Status: offline 		All of the ships had zero flotation damage before the turn, and during the turn I didn't get a message that the ships were flooding or anything like that, which is what made we think that system damage had sunk the ship.

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 4:06:11 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
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Status: offline 		Check the Operations report and Combat Events.

Possible explanation should be there. E.g. there has been explosions when repairing etc.

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 4:13:05 PM   
Macquarrie1999


Posts: 57
Joined: 4/29/2021
From: California
Status: offline 		Having the ships not unloading made it so they didn't sink. I guess I will be leaving them there for awhile until they can repair their system damage.

Thanks.

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 4:15:03 PM   
Trugrit


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Status: offline
Yep,

Somethings not right. Ships can explode, even standard cargo ships
that are unloading can explode.

But 3 of them at the same time? Not likely.

We are going to need a lot more information.

Lets go all the way back. which version of the game are you running?
What mod?


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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 4:31:44 PM   
pnzrgnral

 

Posts: 145
Joined: 2/16/2004
From: El Paso, AR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Run the turn again, but this time

(a) put any ship without troops on board out of TF and into port (and unload it later when it has fixed some damage). You can even put them pierside still loaded.

(b) Relieve Captain Neal H. and replace him with someone with decent numbers, particularly leadership and admin. I forget which one of those most affects repairs.

Edit - I checked, and found an old post about leader skills were a developer once said:

quote:

Admin, inspiration, leadership, work within sub, and sub/sub, routines that probably aren't of interest to you folks anyway, since they have little to no impact on detect, react, or combat, so I'll leave them alone.
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2350193

The bottom line, per Alfred's ship repair guide 101, is that ships in TF carrying out crew-only 'readiness repair' of system damage, is that number of repair points generated by the crew is limited by an equation. They get no help from the port unless they drop out of the TF. The equation does however, take into account crew experience. Therefore you want a leader who provokes experience increases, which in turn affect repairs.


In addition to Ian R's post: Set the task force speed to cruise. Having higher speed settings (cruise and full) increases system damage especially while moving. Higher speed settings also increase flooding, but that's not your issue here.

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 4:33:47 PM   
pnzrgnral

 

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< Message edited by pnzrgnral -- 12/15/2021 4:34:50 PM >

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 4:41:07 PM   
Macquarrie1999


Posts: 57
Joined: 4/29/2021
From: California
Status: offline 		I am running the latest unofficial beta, no mods, Scenario 1

The game says it is version 1.8.11.26b

Here are the ships in question.



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< Message edited by Macquarrie1999 -- 12/15/2021 4:47:22 PM >

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 5:02:30 PM   
Trugrit


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I think you are fine.

I went back an checked it in sandbox.

It is the game that is removing your ships.

I ran a destroyer out of fuel and kept going.
When it got around to system damage 99 the game took it out
and listed it as sunk with an unknown cause.

I think it is hard coded.

K

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 7:06:36 PM   
LargeSlowTarget


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From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		After weeks at sea the troops aboard must have been pretty unhappy not to say p*ssed off and more than eager to leave. Maybe the ships capsized when everybody rushed the gangways. Or the troops were rioting and sinking the ships in a vulgar display of vengeance.

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 7:26:15 PM   
Macquarrie1999


Posts: 57
Joined: 4/29/2021
From: California
Status: offline 		As punishment they aren't going to be let off those ships of months. They better start pitching in on the repairs.

< Message edited by Macquarrie1999 -- 12/16/2021 6:36:18 AM >

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/15/2021 7:59:33 PM   
jdsrae


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Status: offline 		Local shore leave can be granted, with a strict daily curfew that all troops must be back on board before the damage checks and repair routines run.

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/16/2021 5:01:34 AM   
BBfanboy


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Status: offline 		You might want to consider that ships have penetrations in their hull - like the intakes for the ship's condensers that maintain the water feed to the boilers and ... the toilets. Getting high system damage could mean failure of the valves that keep the water where it is wanted. In short - the toilets failed and the ship flooded!

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RE: Taking System Damage While Docked? - 12/16/2021 9:24:21 AM   
GetAssista

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Macquarrie1999
Having the ships not unloading made it so they didn't sink. I guess I will be leaving them there for awhile until they can repair their system damage.
Thanks.

Yeah, that looks a bit extreme of a dilemma in the code - have a 90/0/0 transport sink while unloading, or repair while docked while troops remain on board. Looks like unloading is coded in as a rather stressful process, in fact more stressful than being at sea given that all transports sink on the same day they dock. Also, unloading should make ship lighter and hence less prone to sink.

Anyway, ingame fix means you need to keep them docked for some time w/o unloading

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