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Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/27/2021 11:59:32 AM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		I'm curious as to how many of you manually alter an AI-generated Flight Path for your aircraft that have been assigned on a Strike Mission?

I do alter mine slightly, but I have found that if I alter it too much, the AI will ignore my changes because of fuel issues. In those cases, the planes will abandon my designed path, and then plot a course to fly straight towards the target instead of the altered route. What is frustrating is that you have no way of knowing whether the flight path will consume too much fuel to handle your alterations until the path is unexpectedly broken by the AI.

I know that we don't have a Mission Planner, but it might be a useful tool if there could be something that would inform the game player how much fuel each leg of the flight path expends (based on the speed and altitude). This would give the game player a better picture of limitations of the strike. You would have to manually compute each leg, but you would know that your altered path would have enough fuel to complete the mission and eliminate the unexpected late unwanted changes. It would be sort of a poor man's Mission Planner.

It's just a thought.

< Message edited by DWReese -- 11/27/2021 12:01:43 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/27/2021 4:10:47 PM   
AndrewJ

 

Posts: 2318
Joined: 1/5/2014
Status: offline 		I almost never use Strike Missions, in part because of the limitations you've mentioned, but I definitely agree that improved route planning tools would be a valuable asset for the player.

What I currently find myself doing is using the editor to put in a new 'planning' aircraft, plotting a route for it with as many waypoints as I need, and using the F2 tool to step through the waypoints until I get to the final one. Then I can make a note of the time and distance that the total route takes, and put that into a spreadsheet along with fuel consumption and fuel capacity data to calculate whether the plane can get there or not. I can adjust the planning aircraft's course as necessary until the route is practical, then mark the waypoints with a bunch of locked RPs, and use those to later plot the course for the actual attack planes. That way I can be reasonably confident that I'll be flying a route that will get me there on time and with enough fuel.

This is a slow and cumbersome process, to say the least, especially as you have to fly each loadout of interest to determine its actual fuel consumption characteristics. Built-in route planning tools would be a big improvement.

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 2
RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/27/2021 5:08:04 PM   
BeirutDude


Posts: 2625
Joined: 4/27/2013
From: Jacksonville, FL, USA
Status: offline 		You're both better than me. I do one of two things...

1. Multiple strike missions with limited targets (WRA issues)
2. build holding boxes and send them in manually from there.

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Post #: 3
RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/27/2021 6:48:51 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		Andrew, I actually do most of what you do, but not nearly as detailed as you. That takes a lot of time and effort.

Since I am building the scenario for both sides, I have to have it be able to work via the AI, so I can't depend on being able to handle it manually. That being said, a tool (any tool) to make these calculations easier would be most appreciated. I find (too often) that a slight alteration might be acceptable, but a slightly larger alteration causes ye whole thing to basically implode your whole planned attack. There is nothing worse than that. Suddenly, you are having to Un-assign the unit, reassign them, change everything while they are in flight, and hope for the best. Usually, after the mission has been disrupted there is almost no hope getting it back.

Yes, some kind of tool would help.


(in reply to AndrewJ)
Post #: 4
RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/27/2021 6:50:50 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		Al, your scenarios are usually so large and involved that if you tried to doing the kind of strike planning that I am talking about then it would take you a year to build just one scenario. <G> You pretty much have to do it the easy way and hope for the best. It's not ideal by any means, but it does work.

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Post #: 5
RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/27/2021 7:04:16 PM   
BDukes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeirutDude

You're both better than me. I do one of two things...

1. Multiple strike missions with limited targets (WRA issues)
2. build holding boxes and send them in manually from there.


Same here. I do a lot of manually adjusting but not always sure if it is done for a logical reason or just me tinkering.

Mike


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Post #: 6
RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/27/2021 7:23:03 PM   
SeaQueen


Posts: 1451
Joined: 4/14/2007
From: Washington D.C.
Status: offline 		It depends. If I'm doing anything very complicated I often fly it manually. If it's something relatively simple, then I'll use the mission. I often alter the course in order to avoid doing things like overflying SAMs or airfields.

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 7
RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/28/2021 4:06:11 AM   
boogabooga

 

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Status: offline 		The database tells you the radius of the strike loadout and proportionally how much fuel you consume for the different speed/altitude bands. The information IS there if you do your homework. That said, I often build myself little sandbox scenarios so I can get a sense of what my limitations are if I'm going to be using unfamiliar plane types in a scenario that I want to play. It's also a good way to figure out how many tankers that I need. We are all holding a simulation engine, after all.

My big wish for strike missions is to be able to alter the flightplan BEFORE they launch, so the scenario designer can preplan OPFOR strikes, etc.

(in reply to SeaQueen)
Post #: 8
RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/28/2021 7:33:44 AM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline 		What you say about the data being there is true, but as Al and Mike said, it's way more complicated to get to, and it takes way too much time. It should be somewhat automated.

Check out this idea:

The AI creates a flight path for each of the strikes. We already know this. If you leave that alone, then the strike will work. We already know that, too. So, from that, we know that the AI has already calculated how much fuel is needed for the mission based on the various speeds and altitudes being flown on each leg of the mission. It's already been done.

Now, where I have an issue is this: If you alter the mission (i.e. stretch leg 3 or leg 4, for example) then those obviously now require more fuel than before. Since the program knew how much was needed before, then it should be able to calculate the new "stretched" distance as it already know what the fuel consumption was going to be BEFORE it took off. By stretching it, the program should also know when you have stretched it too far, and made the mission impossible to handle because of the new distance.

Currently, you don't know that YOUR altered AI course was now too long until the plane suddenly and unexpectedly, veers off course, or RTBs, because it is no longer has enough fuel because of your changes.

If you had spent time planning this, and you altered the AI's original course, then the game should know that you have stretched it too far before you while you are altering your course. It should be able to warn you. If it did, then you could immediately make these course changes, or even see that you going to need tankers, if necessary.

What I am saying is the game already KNOWS the fuel consumption is valid when it made the original flight plan. It planned for it. It knows that its plan will work. So, the game should also know that if changes are made to the path and the distance is now too far, then the path is no longer going to work. At that point, it should be able to inform you that your changes (like leg 3 being increased 150 miles) is now too far, and it won't work. A warning box notice would really help at this point. As I said, this would be like a "poor man's mission planner" until something better comes along. The AI already knows how to do this. It already calculates whether tankers are needed, and how much fuel is needed.

I'm just proposing that it be able to evaluate our changes, aren't valid and won't work BEFORE the planes travel 5/6ths of the way there and then have to turn around.

I don't believe that this would be very difficult to do, since it's essentially already being done, and it would help immensely.

(in reply to boogabooga)
Post #: 9
RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/28/2021 1:41:43 PM   
AndrewJ

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: boogabooga

The database tells you the radius of the strike loadout and proportionally how much fuel you consume for the different speed/altitude bands.


However, the fuel consumption rates shown in the Propulsion section of the database viewer are for the clean plane, and this can change significantly depending on how much ordnance they're carrying.

I went looking with a third-party browser (SQLite) to see if there was more information.

  • The table EnumLoadoutMissionProfile has throttle setting and altitude information, but doesn't seem to have any fuel consumption information.
  • The table DataLoadout has a field called PayloadWeightDragModifier, called out to four decimal places, which varies from 0 (Ferry loadouts) to as much as 2.3075.
  • The table DataPropulsion has fields for SFCMilitary and SFCAfterburner (specific fuel consumption).
  • The table DataPropulsionPerformance has a field for Consumption.

    Presumably this all feeds into a formula (along with altitude information, and proportion of loadout currently carried) to generate the actual fuel consumption in any given condition. There are probably more pieces I've missed.

    So it doesn't seem to be like something the player can quickly and simply look up. A route-planning tool would be really helpful for this.

    (in reply to boogabooga)
    • Post #: 10
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/28/2021 2:00:36 PM   
    AndrewJ

     

    Posts: 2318
    Joined: 1/5/2014
    Status: offline     		This video from the Command PE tutorial series gives some insight into the items which contribute to fuel consumption calculations.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CDv0rlUz7fQ&list=PLAKZM4TQoufmUqvMiCfxjZKw5RsO9GX3n&index=7

    (in reply to AndrewJ)
    Post #: 11
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/28/2021 3:04:18 PM   
    thewood1

     

    Posts: 6529
    Joined: 11/27/2005
    Status: offline     		Typically, where needed in more complex strikes transits, I use the scenario editor to run dummy paths to areas if I think fuel management is going to be an issue. I don't do that much any more. Now I have a fairly good feel for modern jet strike aircraft and bombers. But in scenarios without tanking and using older aircraft I'll still run a test transit to get a feel for unfamiliar units.

    I also do it now and then with subs to get a feel for battery range and charging speeds.

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    Post #: 12
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/28/2021 3:07:22 PM   
    DWReese

     

    Posts: 1824
    Joined: 3/21/2014
    From: Miami, Florida
    Status: offline     		Andrew,

    Those PE videos are very interesting. I never knew that they even existed.

    Of course, since I'm not eligible to own PE, I guess that it's just a moot point.

    Thanks for sharing that info.


    (in reply to AndrewJ)
    Post #: 13
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/30/2021 10:48:23 AM   
    SeaQueen


    Posts: 1451
    Joined: 4/14/2007
    From: Washington D.C.
    Status: offline     		It's probably worthwhile to point out that a max strike range is calculated for each valid aircraft configuration and is visible in the Database Viewer. Sometimes I think people need to worry less about making calculations and doing math and more just making better use of the information they're presented. CMO/CMANO has A LOT of data for most people to think about. I sometimes wonder how many people think the key to getting good at this game is doing math, when in fact, they'd do 90% better just by looking more closely at the mass of data they're already presented with.

    (in reply to thewood1)
    Post #: 14
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/30/2021 10:49:30 AM   
    SeaQueen


    Posts: 1451
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    From: Washington D.C.
    Status: offline
    quote:

    ORIGINAL: boogabooga
    The database tells you the radius of the strike loadout and proportionally how much fuel you consume for the different speed/altitude bands. The information IS there if you do your homework.


    100%



    (in reply to boogabooga)
    Post #: 15
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/30/2021 12:28:12 PM   
    DWReese

     

    Posts: 1824
    Joined: 3/21/2014
    From: Miami, Florida
    Status: offline

    quote:

    I sometimes wonder how many people think the key to getting good at this game is doing math, when in fact, they'd do 90% better just by looking more closely at the mass of data they're already presented with.


    SQ,

    If your comment was directed toward me, I'd like to point out that I rarely actually even PLAY the game. I use the game daily, but I don't PLAY it to win it, or "do better." I really only use CMO as a tool. I am perfectly content setting up small segments of battles, and then watching as the AI plays against itself. I'm interested in watching mission-driven units go up against other mission-driven units. Then, after that, I like to add (or subtract) other units and watch what happens after implementing the changes.

    The requested "tool" that I am talking about should be easy to implement. It would merely be having the computer display and then total all of the fuel consumption for each segments (given the speed and altitude) and comparing that to the plane's fuel total to determine how far it could travel. (It probably already exists hidden inside the game.) Remember, I started this thread by talking about "altering an AI-generated flight path" and not winning the game, or doing "better."

    In my perfect world, each side is handled by the AI, and each is equally represented by the computer, with no human effort involved after the initial setup. I'm vying for a TOOL to help me know how far I can "alter" the flight path BEFORE finding out during the game that my alterations went too far, and now the planes have to RTB because of fuel. As I said, I believe that the tool would be a "poor man's mission/flight planner. It's just a wish list item, that's all.

    (in reply to SeaQueen)
    Post #: 16
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/30/2021 12:44:44 PM   
    thewood1

     

    Posts: 6529
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    Status: offline     		"should be easy to implement"

    This is where people who know little about development and how a company runs lose me.

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    Post #: 17
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 11/30/2021 10:15:55 PM   
    AndrewJ

     

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    Joined: 1/5/2014
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

    It's probably worthwhile to point out that a max strike range is calculated for each valid aircraft configuration and is visible in the Database Viewer. Sometimes I think people need to worry less about making calculations and doing math and more just making better use of the information they're presented. CMO/CMANO has A LOT of data for most people to think about. I sometimes wonder how many people think the key to getting good at this game is doing math, when in fact, they'd do 90% better just by looking more closely at the mass of data they're already presented with.



    The strike ranges are useful guidelines for a straight-line attack, but they only apply if the aircraft follow the specific altitude and throttle settings for that loadout. The moment changes are made, those figures are no longer valid. Similarly, if the aircraft needs to follow a more complex route than a straight line, the basic strike radius from base is no longer so easy to check. If the aircraft is already in flight, then the user can step through the waypoints in the F2 window and see if they have enough fuel to make it, but if they're trying to plan in advance the only option is to do the math. (Or my normal TLAR method... )

    I agree that there is a lot of data in CMO, which is why it is important to present it in an accessible way. The sim is already doing these fuel, range, and time-related calculations, so why not make the results available to the user? Having the user doing trial runs and stepping out to plug data into a spreadsheet is not the optimal solution. Let's have the sim automate the arithmetic, so the operator can focus on other issues.

    (in reply to SeaQueen)
    Post #: 18
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 12/1/2021 1:48:17 AM   
    SeaQueen


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    From: Washington D.C.
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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: AndrewJ
    The strike ranges are useful guidelines for a straight-line attack, but they only apply if the aircraft follow the specific altitude and throttle settings for that loadout. The moment changes are made, those figures are no longer valid.


    Strictly speaking that's true, however departing from a straight-in straight-out attack isn't really a problem. In that case you just make sure that the total path length of all the legs is less than 2x the max strike radius. The thing that makes the biggest difference is big changes in altitude. An F-35A at 36000 feet burns 24.34 kg/min of fuel. If you figure that it has to fly to the target and back, then with 8375.0 kg of gas that means it can fly for 344 min. At 480 knots (i.e. 8 NM/min, the default speed), I can go a grand total of 2752NM. But then you want to subtract some time off for forming up, takeoff, landing and suddenly I end up with 2400NM oh! That's the ferry range!

    So how much time do you have for takeoff, landing, and forming up? 44 minutes, so about 20min on either end. That's not much wiggle room!

    Oh! Look! I just told you how to solve your problem! Funny.

    This isn't hard. You can do this stuff with a pocket calculator. I can literally do it with a slide rule. Everyone is so math averse. It's just arithmetic. It isn't hard. They give you everything you need to know.

    < Message edited by SeaQueen -- 12/1/2021 2:23:55 AM >

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    Post #: 19
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 12/1/2021 12:29:23 PM   
    tylerblakebrandon

     

    Posts: 173
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    Status: offline     		One thing I do as a rule of thumb if I want to use a strike mission is that I generally look at the range to the target and the strike range of my available units. I generally try to make sure they have much more range that the target distance that way I can alternate the flight plan and my strikes generally can follow the assigned path.

    (in reply to SeaQueen)
    Post #: 20
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 12/1/2021 10:01:12 PM   
    AndrewJ

     

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    quote:

    ORIGINAL: SeaQueen

    I can literally do it with a slide rule. Everyone is so math averse. It's just arithmetic. It isn't hard. They give you everything you need to know.


    Unfortunately, the database viewer only gives you the fuel consumption figures for the clean condition. Different loadouts have an enormous impact on fuel consumption. For example, consider some loadouts for an F-15E cruising at high altitude.

    Clean - 32.45 kg/min
    Mavericks - 38.6 kg/min
    AMRAAM Light - 39.1 kg/min
    AMRAAM Heavy - 46.8 kg/min
    Assorted JDAMs - 49.5 kg/min
    Mk.84s - 62.5 kg/min

    Fuel consumption can nearly double, depending on what's being carried. Unfortunately, the only way the player can currently get these precise figures is by putting a plane in the air and flying it.

    If you try to figure out fuel consumption from the loadout description and database viewer, it quickly bogs down. Consider this loadout: another plane with 4,855kg of fuel has a 300nm strike radius, composed of 40 minutes cruising at high altitude, 16.2 minutes military at SL, and 30 minutes loitering at low altitude plus a 5% reserve.

    40 x Consumption 1 + 16.2 x Consumption 2 + 30 x Consumption 3 + reserve = 4,855 kg.

    What are Consumption 1, 2, and 3? What if you want to use medium altitude instead, and need Consumption 4? Or military at high, for Consumption 5? To my math-challenged eyes the information just isn't there.

    So yes, if a player really wants to they can plot complex courses, measure all their leg lengths in advance, do little tests to find out what the fuel consumption is, and put together a spreadsheet to figure out whether they have enough fuel to make it, and when they need to launch to have everything arrive together in a coordinated attack at the proper time from different bases. But that's slow, cumbersome, and just as exciting as it sounds.

    Commercial CMO is an entertainment product. Doing aircraft fuel consumption admin is not so entertaining... Why not give the player integrated route-planning tools to help them move past the housekeeping quickly and accurately, and get them to the focus of their operations?


    (And kudos for keeping your slide rule skills fresh! But I'd bet that in 2022 most of the new customers will hope we're a little beyond slide rules, nomograms, and knotted string. )

    (in reply to SeaQueen)
    Post #: 21
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 12/14/2021 2:13:18 PM   
    DWReese

     

    Posts: 1824
    Joined: 3/21/2014
    From: Miami, Florida
    Status: offline     		Andrew,

    I have been able to successfully manipulate the game to establish a designed flight path in the 2 1/2 minutes BEFORE it takes off, and then aborting the take-off. The purpose of this is to establish that flight path, which doesn't go away. From there, I am able to alter it to do things that I want to do.

    The only downside, as I mentioned before, is that you never really know how far you can take it. Adding a little extra to each leg might not look like much, but in the end the planes could end up crashing, as my just did in my last test. The game gives you some data, but who wants to go around and measure each leg, when I'm certain that the game does that when it first creates the flight path. Since it does it originally, it should have the means to be able to calculate the new flight path, and then warn you if YOUR newly-created flight path is no longer valid because of a lack of fuel.

    It doesn't seem like much, but who knows? To me, it appears that each leg could be measured in terms of altitude, speed and distance. Each leg could them be added together to produce a total, which would need to be within certain parameters, or an error message would pop up. (I'm sure that the game already does this.)

    I do believe that this could be really beneficial. And, as I said, it would be a "poor man's flight planner" while we are waiting for the real thing.

    Thoughts?

    (in reply to AndrewJ)
    Post #: 22
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 12/15/2021 12:36:58 AM   
    kevinkins


    Posts: 2257
    Joined: 3/8/2006
    Status: offline     		Was not an advanced Mission Planner mistakenly released right before LIVE: Operation Broken Shield around January, 2020? Then it was immediately pulled back via a new beta. Where the heck is it after all these months? Some very very few players still retain a copy of Mission Planner. And use it. And love it.

    < Message edited by kevinkins -- 12/15/2021 12:53:34 AM >

    _____________________________

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    (in reply to DWReese)
    Post #: 23
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 12/15/2021 10:03:09 AM   
    guanotwozero

     

    Posts: 651
    Joined: 12/27/2013
    Status: offline     		I regularly alter generated missions as I find they work well as long as I don't exceed the mission radius. It's easy enough to measure legs using the distance tool, and keeping the same path for the return keeps it simple. Sometimes I want several missions sharing a ToT or sequenced waves, so I usually use a spreadsheet to work out the timings.

    Other than using auto-generated missions the only other option is to manually run them, but that's a bit more work as it needs careful placement of RPs and steady paying of attention for the course changes and attacks.

    Edit: I missed the erroneous flight planner, and very much look forward to when we can get a release version!

    < Message edited by guanotwozero -- 12/15/2021 10:18:20 AM >

    (in reply to kevinkins)
    Post #: 24
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 12/15/2021 5:21:25 PM   
    guanotwozero

     

    Posts: 651
    Joined: 12/27/2013
    Status: offline     		FWIW, here's an example spreadsheet (.xlsm) for calculating timings for 3 missions based on a ToT, including weapons.

    It only calculates times from distances & airspeed, i.e. nothing fancy like fuel calculations. On the up-side it should work in any modern spreadsheet as there are no macros, and customisation via copy/paste should be easy.

    Attachment (1)

    (in reply to guanotwozero)
    Post #: 25
    RE: Altering an AI-generated Flight Path - 12/21/2021 7:11:07 AM   
    jannas34

     

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    Status: offline     		Not likely anything will get done about this

    (in reply to guanotwozero)
    Post #: 26
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