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Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 3:29:28 AM

jubjub

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Germans need the ability to create city forts in the Soviet Union. There's just no way 3 ID (with no HQ) or 2 ID and 1 HQ in a city can hold out for more than a turn. Urban combat is even worse, and 3 ID will become depleted and routed after a couple of large attacks.

Post #: 1

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 3:35:21 AM

ShaggyHiK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

Germans need the ability to create city forts in the Soviet Union. There's just no way 3 ID (with no HQ) or 2 ID and 1 HQ in a city can hold out for more than a turn. Urban combat is even worse, and 3 ID will become depleted and routed after a couple of large attacks.

At what stage did the German generals come to the doctrine of the city-fortress?
At a certain stage, Stalingrad can be considered such a city, but this is an accident, in fact, the Germans began to resort to such tactics only in the territories of Germany within the borders until June 22, 41.

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 2

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 3:52:57 AM

cameron88

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From 1942 onwards, City fortress doctrine was prevalent in the Germany army and with Hitlers furthering command over it as it found itself more on the defense, as 'Festung' cities, or literally fortress cities.

Stalingrad is the obvious example, hundreds of thousands of troops were within the city told to hold out against all odds and wait for relief, which isn't possible without a city fort ingame. Likewise is velki luki, which also became surrounded and turned into a festung city, holding a corps, and multiple divisions, both which is not possible without ability to make a city fort there. Another example is Demyansk, which was a city surrounded and eventually broken out. Ternopol also was declared a festung by hitler, and told to fortify the city and build up defenses within it. Smolensk is another city which was cut off and fortified, aswell as Breslau and Warsaw later in the war.

Me and jubjub both are playing a modded 1942 scenario, and it has a few fortress cities, most notably in Stalingrad, because the base game mechanics don't allow it, even when Germany has lost the initiative. It is literally impossible to have a historical or semi historical Stalingrad encirclement/battle without them, from gameplay perspective and my personal opinion on it, you lose 2-3 tiles and then your hqs get over run and surrender well outside the city, and a slew of other issues like that and what jubjub mentioned.

So it's simply objectively better to allow or in this case start Germany with fortress cities in certain areas in 1942 for gameplay, and completely historical. I'd recommend the developers simply add the ability to create them within Soviet borders in any scenario if they lose the initiative, it makes perfect sense and isn't noticeably unbalanced.

< Message edited by cameron88 -- 12/15/2021 3:58:20 AM >

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)

Post #: 3

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 4:13:56 AM

DesertedFox

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I don't see an issue with "altering" the historical doctrine set by Hitler and Stalin.

1. Russians are under no obligation to do suicidal and very expensive useless attacks on the Germans or stick around whilst they get surrounded.

2. The Germans are under no obligation to stick their neck in a noose aka Stalingrad and not withdraw to a better defensive position.

3. The so-called "fortress" cities will not happen out of thin air as in a Harry Potter movie. It will take time, engineers, and especially SUPPLIES, and lots and lots of supplies to build them.

(in reply to cameron88)

Post #: 4

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 4:54:12 AM

cameron88

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Both 1 and 2 are ridiculous comments, and i really wonder why at all you felt the need to make them. In 1942 you literally start the game as Germany with Stalingrad encircled. This game is entirely based on history, and forces you to do many things to recreate them, oh why did Germany send those forces west or to Norway when they could have just stayed on the Eastern front? Why did this division forcefully disband, why does Stalin & the NKVD forcefully execute officers ingame? ect.

And as for the other comment, yes... they do... have you even played as the Soviets? A fortress city ingame does spawn out of thin air like a harry potter movie, and furthermore provides 0 defense, 0 supply, and 0 engineers, those are all things part of the divisions you put into them. They also don't provide any fortification bonus, or battle bonus, its entire purpose is to allow more divisions onto a tile, which is normally limited to 3, and as such limits historical fortress cities on the Eastern front, where plenty more then 3 divisions were defending, and hqs.

< Message edited by cameron88 -- 12/15/2021 5:02:34 AM >

(in reply to DesertedFox)

Post #: 5

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 5:03:56 AM

DesertedFox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cameron88

Both 1 and 2 are ridiculous comments, and i really wonder why at all you felt the need to make them. In 1942 you literally start the game as Germany with Stalingrad encircled. This game is entirely based on history, and forces you to do many things to recreate them, oh why did Germany send those forces west or to Norway when they could have just stayed on the Eastern front? Why did this division forcefully disband, why does Stalin & the NKVD forcefully execute officers ingame? ect.

And as for the other comment, yes... they do... have you even played as the Soviets? A fortress city ingame does spawn out of thin air like a harry potter movie, and furthermore provides 0 defense, 0 supply, and 0 engineers, those are all things part of the divisions you put into them. They also don't provide any fortification bonus, or battle bonus, its entire purpose is to allow more divisions onto a tile, which is normally limited to 3, and as such limits historical fortress cities on the Eastern front, where plenty more then 3 divisions were defending, and hqs.

I stand corrected on #3.

I stand by 1 and 2.

You are also welcome to your absurd opinion as well.

I don't recall in my message talking about killing officers or disbanding units. So why would you raise such ridiculous arguments?

Let's talk about what I did say.

1 and 2. They are absolutely correct. No player is obliged to follow such tactics or doctrine.

My response was to Shaggy's post in this thread and has absolutely nothing to do with your #3 post.

I agreed to let them be able to build city forts.

< Message edited by DesertedFox -- 12/15/2021 5:28:09 AM >

(in reply to cameron88)

Post #: 6

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 7:54:15 AM

xhoel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

2. The Germans are under no obligation to stick their neck in a noose aka Stalingrad and not withdraw to a better defensive position.

But in StB as the Axis, you start the game with Stalingrad surrounded. The point that he is making is that by allowing the use of City Forts (which only allow you to stack up more units, nothing else) you can potentially do better in defense and hold the city for longer, similar to the historical example.

I think City Forts should not have a geographical constrain for either side. If the German player wants to stack 5 divisions and leave them to die in Smolensk so he can slow the Soviets down, he should be able to do so.

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(in reply to DesertedFox)

Post #: 7

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 8:02:02 AM

DesertedFox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xhoel

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

2. The Germans are under no obligation to stick their neck in a noose aka Stalingrad and not withdraw to a better defensive position.

But in StB as the Axis, you start the game with Stalingrad surrounded. The point that he is making is that by allowing the use of City Forts (which only allow you to stack up more units, nothing else) you can potentially do better in defense and hold the city for longer, similar to the historical example.

I think City Forts should not have a geographical constrain for either side. If the German player wants to stack 5 divisions and leave them to die in Smolensk so he can slow the Soviets down, he should be able to do so.

I agree with your statement.

However, I made my post without reading cameron88's post and it related only to the fact that shaggy felt the Germans shouldn't be allowed this option. To which I disagree with him, and thus agree with jubjub and cameron88 in this area.

I don't agree with his further stupid comments which suggest I was disagreeing with having this as an option, which any moron could tell I was FOR the Germans having this option.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

I don't see an issue with "altering" the historical doctrine set by Hitler and Stalin.

My 1 and 2 comments were "in the general context" of the game and not limited to or referring to the StB scenario.

(in reply to xhoel)

Post #: 8

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 8:36:14 AM

Dreamslayer

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Why do not change the outdated hex limitation(no more 3 units in hex)? There is series Panzer Campaign that uses hex limitation but in men total not in units. And WitE/WitW players should suffer just because of old interface stuff.

(in reply to DesertedFox)

Post #: 9

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 8:41:48 AM

Stamb

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Why do not change the outdated hex limitation(no more 3 units in hex)? There is series Panzer Campaign that uses hex limitation but in men total not in units. And WitE/WitW players should suffer just because of old interface stuff.

Then players would block key routes with a stack of 5-6 divisions and defense CV of > 100. No way to push it.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)

Post #: 10

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 8:50:26 AM

DesertedFox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Why do not change the outdated hex limitation(no more 3 units in hex)? There is series Panzer Campaign that uses hex limitation but in men total not in units. And WitE/WitW players should suffer just because of old interface stuff.

Then players would block key routes with a stack of 5-6 divisions and a defense CV of > 100. No way to push it.

Given the width of the entire front, placing so many units in a single hex tends to create opportunities elsewhere.

Basically, go around it.

I am speaking in a general sense. Nonetheless, in a situation like Stalingrad where your cut off the best chance of delaying the enemy is to hold up as many units in a location, preferably one with a depot, to delay its capture.

Currently, as the example provided for the StB scenario is the Germans have difficulty in holding out anywhere near as long as they did historically, or at least that is my guess as I am only on turn 2 of that very scenario.

Regardless, if the Russians can do it, why not the Germans? It cannot be spammed across the map as it must be in or adjacent to a major city, not a town, and you put 5 divs each into 10 city fortress and the front line is going to look like Swiss Cheese.

< Message edited by DesertedFox -- 12/15/2021 8:52:41 AM >

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 11

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 8:50:51 AM

Dreamslayer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Why do not change the outdated hex limitation(no more 3 units in hex)? There is series Panzer Campaign that uses hex limitation but in men total not in units. And WitE/WitW players should suffer just because of old interface stuff.

Then players would block key routes with a stack of 5-6 divisions and defense CV of > 100. No way to push it.

Panzer Campaign series uses penalty for units in the hex if they over limit. 3 units in the hex is an anachronism.

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 12

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 8:55:37 AM

DesertedFox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stamb

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

Why do not change the outdated hex limitation(no more 3 units in hex)? There is series Panzer Campaign that uses hex limitation but in men total not in units. And WitE/WitW players should suffer just because of old interface stuff.

Then players would block key routes with a stack of 5-6 divisions and defense CV of > 100. No way to push it.

As for it blocking key locations as you stated, yes, and this is directly from the rules book.

quote:

AGC will probably determine your overall strategy.
If you want to seriously threaten Moscow you cannot
weaken AGC in the early turns. Try constantly to look for
opportunities to outflank the Soviets and to push past
Smolensk (which can be turned into a major fortress if you
give the Soviets too much time)

(in reply to Stamb)

Post #: 13

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 8:55:42 AM

Dreamslayer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox
Regardless, if the Russians can do it, why not the Germans? It cannot be spammed across the map as it must be a city, not a town, and you put 5 divs each into 10 city fortress and the front line is going to look like Swiss Cheese.

In the game we have Soviet "Oranienbaum fortress" but what a city is there?

(in reply to DesertedFox)

Post #: 14

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 9:06:26 AM

DesertedFox

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox
Regardless, if the Russians can do it, why not the Germans? It cannot be spammed across the map as it must be a city, not a town, and you put 5 divs each into 10 city fortress and the front line is going to look like Swiss Cheese.

In the game we have Soviet "Oranienbaum fortress" but what a city is there?

Maybe need a Dev to answer, I am only quoting the rules of creating them, but there was a fortress there historically.

Also, it is a level 5 fortress and these take years to build, (a quote from the rule book), and forts can only be built to level 4 in game.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)

Post #: 15

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 10:07:51 AM

Dreamslayer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dreamslayer

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesertedFox
Regardless, if the Russians can do it, why not the Germans? It cannot be spammed across the map as it must be a city, not a town, and you put 5 divs each into 10 city fortress and the front line is going to look like Swiss Cheese.

In the game we have Soviet "Oranienbaum fortress" but what a city is there?

Maybe need a Dev to answer, I am only quoting the rules of creating them, but there was a fortress there historically.

Also, it is a level 5 fortress and these take years to build, (a quote from the rule book), and forts can only be built to level 4 in game.

The Soviet defence of this area was based on the naval fort that was constructed before WW1. But I mean its not a city.

(in reply to DesertedFox)

Post #: 16

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 11:37:27 AM

DesertedFox

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quote:

The Soviet defence of this area was based on the naval fort that was constructed before WW1. But I mean its not a city.

Okay, I am not going to argue with you, it's not a city, I never said it was. I just said a fortress had been built there

historically. I never said it was a city.

What I did say was

quote:

it must be in or adjacent to a major city, not a town,

which was paraphrasing the rule book.

quote:

20.6. CItY FoRtS

A �City Fort� is a notional unit that allows players to
stack more combat and HQ units in any city or port hexes.

20.6.1. CREAtIoN
To create one, you must select a unit in or adjacent to the
urban/port hex.

Note that some scenarios have at-start city forts that
breach this rule but no new ones can be created outside
these areas.

I am not sure what you are driving at.

(in reply to Dreamslayer)

Post #: 17

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 5:21:37 PM

Joel Billings

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Yes, city forts are intended for port fortified areas and urban areas where often much larger unit densities existed. Ports were often situated with a large fortified area that could sustain a large density of troops in a small area. While there were smaller cities like Vitebsk that had garrisons larger than the 3 unit stacking allows, it wasn't on the order of the much larger garrisons in the port or the need to allow a larger defense of Stalingrad or Berlin (or some of the German city forts in 1945). Ideally we'd have a mechanism that allows a somewhat smaller city fort in other locations, but this was added complexity for in our opinion very small gain.

_____________________________

All understanding comes after the fact.
-- Soren Kierkegaard

(in reply to DesertedFox)

Post #: 18

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/15/2021 6:11:44 PM

GibsonPete

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cameron88 and jubjub are simply pointing out that one side has an option that the other does not. They would like to see that option for both sides. Arguing that it is ahistorical is weak. It is similar to the limit on the number of Axis fortresses available. Something that is also being explored. The stacking limit is simply a diversion from the topic. I suggest we examine (in a calm manner) the benefits and detriments of what is being suggested. Is it a game breaker? Don't know. Is it supported by history? Yes. Should a Soviet city fort be exactly like an Axis city fort? Maybe but maybe not.

_____________________________

�Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.�

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 19

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 1:06:39 AM

ShaggyHiK

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I know your German suggestions for "improving the game". The German player almost does not spend AP points for most of the game, he is not forced to constantly create new units and change army commanders. If the Germans were allowed to create forts, it would appear that the Soviet Union would be forced to constantly storm the fortified cities. Just because the German player will begin to turn every significant point into a fortress, even in operation it will delay the capture of an important hex for the placement of large warehouses and interfere with the construction of rails, than the German player will be able to greatly slow down the advance of the USSR in 43-44-45.

Imagine what kind of Moscow will be returned if the Soviet player loses it, and the German player immediately makes a fortress out of it?
Create a fortress in Smolensk, build a high level of fortifications - place your tank troops there, save them during the winter counter-offensive.

I just have no words, the most active suggestions for the game for some reason come from the German players who are now in greenhouse conditions.
Do you really need all these handouts to win with confidence? Are you interested in playing when the Soviet player actually plays the role of an extra?

Moreover, it is simply impossible to regard Demyansk and even Stalingrad as a "fortress city" in the literal sense.
It's like looking at an armored car with bulletproof armor and saying that this is a full-fledged tank match the German panther.
The fortress city was Konigsberg, Budapest, Poznan and other cities on German territory within the borders on June 21, 41, to consider Velikiye Luki a fortress city, this is wishful thinking, an armored car for a tank.

< Message edited by ShaggyHiK -- 12/16/2021 1:25:40 AM >

(in reply to GibsonPete)

Post #: 20

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 1:58:32 AM

cameron88

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You are so unbelievably wrong and/or delusional.
I implore you to play a 1942 STB game and be able to put 5-10 divisions on a tile as Germany and not for it to be immediately encircled or have serious gaps in your frontline, all while having a noticeable immediate and unbalancing game impact as you baselessly assume it will, which spoiler alert, it won't. (I have 90-120 turns worth of STB experience now against players)

Infact i further ask this, give me an exact example in 1942 of where you could build a city fort as Germany, be able to man it without issues mentioned above, and then the Soviets be "forced to storm it" or else it would be at all game unbalancing, so much so that the Soviets become "the role of an extra". Because i know you can't, and your comment adds literally no value to this discussion, which comes from your lack of game experience.

The reality is all city forts do is stop dumb and unrealistic situations from happening and are completely historical. This thread is about Stalingrad being encircled in STB scenario, and there's no place to put HQs, small 3k size units, or much else, as the city tiles are limited to just a couple divisions. Because of this, the issues mentioned at the top of this thread inevitably will happen as a result like your HQs being overrun and there being no actual fight for the city.

And your comment "Moreover, it is simply impossible to regard Demyansk and even Stalingrad as a "fortress city" in the literal sense." Is completely irrelevant. If that's the case, then the Soviets shouldnt be able to build fortress cities at all, because how could you consider Tallin a fortress city "in the literal sense" as you put it, or smolensk, or dneprovetsk all which i've seen players fortify in 1941 campaigns, guess the Soviets shouldn't be able to build them then either.

How about you don't consider it a city fort "in the literal sense" Because you have a comprehension of city forts being an 18th century fort and taking months/years to prepare, when in reality it's nothing more ingame then the ability to put more units into a city, and in real life an adhoc decision to fortify a city and try to defend it with nearby forces, more often then not already surrounded.

< Message edited by cameron88 -- 12/16/2021 2:05:07 AM >

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)

Post #: 21

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 2:30:15 AM

jubjub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Yes, city forts are intended for port fortified areas and urban areas where often much larger unit densities existed. Ports were often situated with a large fortified area that could sustain a large density of troops in a small area. While there were smaller cities like Vitebsk that had garrisons larger than the 3 unit stacking allows, it wasn't on the order of the much larger garrisons in the port or the need to allow a larger defense of Stalingrad or Berlin (or some of the German city forts in 1945). Ideally we'd have a mechanism that allows a somewhat smaller city fort in other locations, but this was added complexity for in our opinion very small gain.

Yeah, was wishing I could hole up in Tallinn in the future (as the Germans). It's just not possible with only 3 units in the hex, since one of them needs to be an HQ. Same issue with Sevastopol. Maybe I can naval transport an HQ a couple of hexes off the coast so I can have 3 CU's in the hex.

(in reply to Joel Billings)

Post #: 22

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 2:32:55 AM

ShaggyHiK

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Speaking about the encirclement of German troops at Stalingrad, one must understand the number of those encircled, and the fact that most of the encircled were defended outside the city.
In addition, the Soviet commanders and the Headquarters estimated the encircled grouping as 80k people, and not 300k people as it was in reality.
Players, however, are well aware of what size piece of cake they bite off and use adequate forces to destroy the enemy group.

A hypothetical example, a fortress erected by a German player in Moscow at the turn of the winter of 41-42.
If the German player reaches Moscow, then he will be able to place a fortress there and place 5 divisions. Which will likely rule out the possibility of Moscow returning by a winter counter-offensive. With obvious serious consequences for the Soviet player. Obviously, even the loss of these 5 divisions will pay off.

That is, we do not consider the possibility of combining small units of 3-4k people into 1 unit of 15k people? Do you need to place all these stubs in 1 hex?

Well, I generally doubt that you understand the very term fortified city or in the German way "Festung", as a definite term. You mean by this some kind of "fortress", although in fact, in the doctrine of the German command, this is a city prepared for a perimeter defense, with accumulated resources for its defense inside the city itself and holding it for a long period of time even if it is completely surrounded by enemy lines.

< Message edited by ShaggyHiK -- 12/16/2021 2:38:57 AM >

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 23

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 3:14:42 AM

ShaggyHiK

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quote:

Tallin a fortress city

Sounds pretty funny, the Soviet fortress is in Tallinn, I certainly have questions, where did the Soviet player get the points for building a fortress in Tallinn? Why didn't the German player take Tallinn fast enough to rule out the possibility of creating a fortress in the city?
At the initial stage (on move 3), the Soviet player simply does not have enough strength to effectively occupy the fortress erected in Tallinn; at best, NKVD regiments of 1.5k people will sit there, and brigades of 7k people, who may have participated in the battles of the division, will be assessed as 5k people (although usually less), at best, if the German player does not cut off the railway to Tallinn for 3 moves, there will be a theoretical opportunity to put there, for example, 2-3 divisions. In general, this is no more than 45-50 thousand people for 4 turns.
Whether the Soviet player wants to be scattered like that in the North, the answer is no.
The German players have a stable circle around Tallinn on their 3rd turn. Which means that the reaction of the Soviet player is only 2 moves.
If this does not happen on turn 3(2 sov turn), then it will happen on turn 4(3 sov turn), the Soviet player will have to make a quick decision on his 3rd sov turn to occupy Tallinn in conditions of an acute shortage of troops in the North, and on the 5th German turn, the German player can already start storming Tallinn ...

(in reply to cameron88)

Post #: 24

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 4:22:55 AM

jubjub

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Tallinn can be a massive headache to deal with if it�s not taken immediately. There�s a reason everyone rushes it down - ahistorically -with a couple of motorized divisions. If it�s not rushed, it�s very feasible to put up a solid defense with 4-5 divisions in the city.

< Message edited by jubjub -- 12/16/2021 4:31:54 AM >

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)

Post #: 25

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 5:31:08 AM

ShaggyHiK

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Spending 10 AP points to create a fortress in the first turns of the 6-8. Bad strategic decision, if this bad decision works well it means the German player is making bad strategic decisions.

(in reply to jubjub)

Post #: 26

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 7:34:33 AM

Pionpion

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I agree : I built a Fort in Tallinn on my first game ever on version 2, filled wiuth secondary troops, the Fort was wiped out on turn 3 (Road to Len scenario).

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)

Post #: 27

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 8:24:54 AM

loki100

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cameron88

You are so unbelievably wrong and/or delusional. ....

your view may be completely right and ShaggyHiK may be completely wrong but you can still keep it polite?

I've tended to see the axis pocket at Stalingrad hold on pretty much as long as it did historically, so that suggests that the lack of a city fort is not the issue?

No one is arguing that city forts are some sort of "18th century fort" or the game requiring the sort of leisurely approach to campaigning and fort reduction of say Rise of Prussia.

There are two arguments against allowing the Germans to do this in Soviet territory. One is that they didn't, cities were declared fortified zones but in the main were defended within the current stacking rules. The other is that it might unbalance the game?

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(in reply to cameron88)

Post #: 28

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 8:33:33 AM

xhoel

Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

If the Germans were allowed to create forts, it would appear that the Soviet Union would be forced to constantly storm the fortified cities. Just because the German player will begin to turn every significant point into a fortress, even in operation it will delay the capture of an important hex for the placement of large warehouses and interfere with the construction of rails, than the German player will be able to greatly slow down the advance of the USSR in 43-44-45.

And? Fortress Citys are not a magic get out of jail card, the Germans dont have infinite troops and cannot create any new ones from scratch. That means, any units left in a city fortress are basically expected to be captured or killed, which is quite a serious loss of experienced formations and manpower. So the Axis player has to consider the benefits of slowing down the enemy for a few turns vs the downside of losing strong and experienced formations to buy time.

Even the toughest forts can be beaten down by the Soviets with the use of multiple Rifle Corps. Also: The possibility to build forts doesnt mean that they will be build. It is simply an option for players to have and due to the resources the Germans have they cannot have so many fort cities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

Imagine what kind of Moscow will be returned if the Soviet player loses it, and the German player immediately makes a fortress out of it?

Thats not how that works. First of all: Dont lose Moscow. Secondly, once the city would be captured it would have 0 fortifications. So adding a City Fort there would be silly. Thirdly, you can capture it back as the Soviets, you just need to put in the effort to do so.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

Create a fortress in Smolensk, build a high level of fortifications - place your tank troops there, save them during the winter counter-offensive.

How will they be safe? You can encircle them and destroy them as the Soviets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK
Do you really need all these handouts to win with confidence? Are you interested in playing when the Soviet player actually plays the role of an extra?

This is a simple suggestion, not a handout. Calm down with your projecting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK
The fortress city was Konigsberg, Budapest, Poznan and other cities on German territory within the borders on June 21, 41.

What is your definition of fortress city? If it is simply Festung, then all the other ones mentioned above were fortresses. If it is based on the number of men defending, then issues arise. The forces defending Budapest and Koenigsberg cannot be compared to the relatively small forces defending Posen (around 40k men).

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK
Well, I generally doubt that you understand the very term fortified city or in the German way "Festung", as a definite term. You mean by this some kind of "fortress", although in fact, in the doctrine of the German command, this is a city prepared for a perimeter defense, with accumulated resources for its defense inside the city itself and holding it for a long period of time even if it is completely surrounded by enemy lines.

Please stop with this projecting. City forts are just a gameplay mechanic so you can add more units above the stacking limit. It has nothing to do with the doctrine of German command.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

A hypothetical example, a fortress erected by a German player in Moscow at the turn of the winter of 41-42.
If the German player reaches Moscow, then he will be able to place a fortress there and place 5 divisions. Which will likely rule out the possibility of Moscow returning by a winter counter-offensive. With obvious serious consequences for the Soviet player. Obviously, even the loss of these 5 divisions will pay off.

You are repeating yourself without countering any of the points that cameron raised while at the same time making claims that make no sense. No sane German player can afford to stack up 5 divisions in one hex. You just dont have the unit density for it. If you did that, you are leaving your flanks exposed, which means the Soviets can encircle you easily.

Again: You keep saying it will rule out the possibility of a winter offensive and that is insane. Just because one hex fell, doesnt mean the Soviets wont counterattack, what logic is this??

You are also ignoring the fact that as the war goes by, Soviet forces get bigger and German ones get smaller. In 1944 having 3 Rifle Corps in an urban hex (around 78k men) is not the same as having 3 German Infantry Divisions (around 30k men). But these are the limitations of the game and the 3 unit stack and we have to work within that frame.

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(in reply to ShaggyHiK)

Post #: 29

RE: Germans need city forts in Soviet Union - 12/16/2021 8:35:11 AM

Stamb

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShaggyHiK

I know your German suggestions for "improving the game". The German player almost does not spend AP points for most of the game, he is not forced to constantly create new units and change army commanders.
...

Have you ever tried to play as an Axis? You have to create depots and assign constructions workers which cost AP. Also there are huge amount of bad leaders with ratings 5-5-5-5 that had to be replaced. And guess what? It costs AP to do so.
You are constantly defending Soviets (cuz you are from Russia?) and voting against any improvements for the Axis. And then you are asking if the game will be interesting for an Axis player if developers add X/Y/Z.

If you think that Axis can afford to put 5-6 divisions into fortress then probably this is the answer for my question: "Have you ever tried to play as an Axis?"

(in reply to ShaggyHiK)

Post #: 30