Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RIM 161 E (long distance)

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Tech Support >> RIM 161 E (long distance) Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RIM 161 E (long distance) - 12/16/2021 9:50:21 PM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline
When playing around with the RIM 161 E I've noticed something new with the Intercept calculations against ballistic missile targets. If it shoots at a really long distance target (like 800 nm, or so) the calculations are always lined up on the target (so that works), but the first volley of RIM 161 E, fired at long distance, ALWAYS seem to be about 20 km BELOW the target, and they just fly underneath it. The message says that it "OVERSHOT THE TARGET" but it really undershot it.

If you fire a second volley at the still approaching missiles, then everything works perfectly.

If you use the RIM 161 C (with its 200 mile radius) then it works perfectly, as well.

Only the RIM 161 E (at long distances) has this issue. Perhaps you could check its climb rate.

Also, is there a way to detonate missiles when playing the game? In the example above, the RIM 161 Es missed their target, and they continue to fly straight. There is no chance that they can kill the missiles that they passed, yet they continue on. What's worse, is that the ship's FC radar (directors) are still tied up directing the original missiles, so they aren't free to fire any new ones. If playing with the Editor, then I can just delete them.

So, it would be nice to have a detonate button to terminate the flight of errant missiles.

Attached is the file. Go to red, select one of the DF-21 launchers, and fire at the ship. Then switch to back to blue and watch how it plays out. This is just a sandbox. It's not an actual scenario.





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by DWReese -- 12/17/2021 12:06:18 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: RIM 161 E (long distance) - 12/18/2021 1:11:30 AM   
KnightHawk75

 

Posts: 1450
Joined: 11/15/2018
Status: offline
Looking at your test scene, if you immediately fire on detection, or shortly there after such that the target has not had time to close much distance, nor gain it's full speed, then yeah I can replicate the first volley failing (at least 3 times in a row). BUT if after detection, you wait a few moments, specifically till the targets reach 6500kts and then fire the first volley - they almost always hit (85% pok leaves some RNG too it). So for example if I manually fire off 2 volleys when the df21(s) are around eastern cyprus having just achieved stable speed, they will hit. It could be the targeting path early on is based on speed\alt projections known 'at that time', then as it has to adjust later it may not be able to catch up to needed adjustments in time - assuming it is being feed the updates.

Alternatively 2 volleys manually fired real very early produces failure for both volleys for me. So it's not a first 'volley' thing as much as it is the state of the target at time of launch.



quote:

So, it would be nice to have a detonate button to terminate the flight of errant missiles.

It would. One can though implement this for the player via a special action and using the selected unit function to obtain the unit a user has selected, validate it, then just call killunit on it, or :delete() if you don't want it recorded.

One can also automate it a bit if say a particular munition type is way out side of where it would ever be if engaging (ie for an non-player ai-side). Can do that by side:unitsby('Weapon'...optional subtypes), process each looking for ones that are outside a given boundry set by rp's, and kill\delete them if outside of it. Ie if your scene is in the Med, and some rim161e is out over the mid atlantic, it can be removed. It's not idea but it's something and it goes toward freeing up comm channels if you don't want to add additional to make up for that sort of situation.

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 2
RE: RIM 161 E (long distance) - 12/18/2021 7:11:18 AM   
DWReese

 

Posts: 1824
Joined: 3/21/2014
From: Miami, Florida
Status: offline
KH,

Thanks for looking into this.

I do understand what you are saying about not firing at the DF-21s until their speed reaches 6500, but I was not manually firing the RIM 161 Es. The AI was doing that firing. I would only fire the DF-21s at the cruiser, and I then switched to the Blue Side watch the cruiser fire at DF-21s.

The surveillance ship, of course, detects the DF-21s immediately after their launch, long before they reach 6500 kts per hour. Since the RIM 161 E has such a tremendous range (over 1100 nm) then the cruiser immediately starts firing. As you stated, this is the culprit.

Re-running the scenario, but turning the Lorenzen's radar off until the DF-21s reach 6500 per hour (roughly at 05:23:23), and then activating the radar, does mean that the missiles are now much closer when they are fired from the cruiser, and When that happens, the intercept works perfectly.

As I earlier said, however, I wasn't the one firing at them, the AI was doing that. Therefore, they were being fired long before the DF-21s reached 6500 kts per hour.

In summary, it's WAD, but only if I turn the Lorenzen's radar off until the DF-21s reach 6500 kts, and I wouldn't normally do that. A game player shouldn't have to be expected to turn the radar off and wait until an enemy missile reaches cruising speed before turning the radar on, just so that they can b detected later. That's unrealistic. Since the intercept process otherwise works so well, I don't know if this should even be addressed at this point for fear that it could get broken.

But, as you stated, the issue of AI firing the RIM 161 Es BEFORE the missiles reach their 6500 kts is the problem.

Regarding your suggestion to accomplish the detonation of errant missiles through Special Events, I believe that a more simple concept is needed, and it might be to just have a button. It would really sort of be like a DELETE button, to just simply remove the missiles from the game. Perhaps they could add this for the future.

Thanks again for your help.

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 3
RE: RIM 161 E (long distance) - 12/19/2021 12:47:59 AM   
KnightHawk75

 

Posts: 1450
Joined: 11/15/2018
Status: offline
quote:

The AI was doing that firing.

Yeah I know, but does it matter that you do it vs the machine. The machine just see's (simplifying) clearance to fire + targetable + cleared dlz check + fire at target - directed where I last found an interception point. The calcs are I think going to be the same no matter if it's an auto-fire, or manual-fire. As for concerns over breaking things I hear you, it also way not even be with the firing part of the equation. It could for instance have to do with guidance updates and how that data is being applied, like maybe speed updates don't happen in this instance for some specific reason(idk btw...just speculating on other areas that might produce similar behavior).

I would say for the ai-side though what you mentioned might work, also you might be able to get around it in a less than ideal way by restricting wra for targeting (so long as the shooters will always be a decent amount more then the selection away, and there isn't a hit-b4-mirv issue complicating it).

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 4
RE: RIM 161 E (long distance) - 12/19/2021 12:55:21 PM   
BDukes

 

Posts: 1695
Joined: 12/27/2017
Status: offline
If the player/editor needs to set the WRA correctly, they need to have the info to know to do that. How are they currently getting that with Doug's example above? Missing the first salvo?

How do you evaluate what's a low percentage or worthless shot that can physically be made? particularly how can the UI express that

Very hard people-UI problem to solve. Devs have my sympathies on this one

Mike

< Message edited by BDukes -- 12/19/2021 1:42:30 PM >


_____________________________

Don't call it a comeback...

(in reply to KnightHawk75)
Post #: 5
RE: RIM 161 E (long distance) - 12/19/2021 5:29:47 PM   
alphali

 

Posts: 82
Joined: 2/12/2016
Status: offline
The undershooting issue seems similar to a post you submitted several months back regarding SM3's. The thread in that message wasn't "fixed" so I don't know if this is the same issue still not resolved.

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 6
RE: RIM 161 E (long distance) - 12/21/2021 6:51:38 AM   
jannas34

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 1/9/2020
Status: offline
Not likely anything will get done about this

(in reply to DWReese)
Post #: 7
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Command: Modern Operations series >> Tech Support >> RIM 161 E (long distance) Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

0.734