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Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 4:50:23 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		I played WITE and WITP, for a while. I realized that WITP requires hours and days to make work because of a pretty bad UI that really doesn't manage bulk at all. Way too time consuming. I'm hoping at some point, the WITP UI is improved. I'd buy that game again.

WITE1 was fun. Air war was too abstracted, but otherwise fun and relatively fast. I read through exciting AARs from players. Solid game.

I feel WITE2 is overly complex. It's for the 10% of the power gamers who post constantly on this site. The supply depot system is insane to manage directly, the UI also doesn't make it easy. The air war also way too complicated, too many clicks. Transferring Air Units should be as simple as drag and drop onto an airfield, but that's not the case. I'm guessing that's too easy. Depot management should NOT be based on priority basis, that has to be constantly adjusted, but a more simple drag and drop approach, where you set you supply lines every certain number of hexes. Want to prioritize, sure...set a depot to priority, but get rid of this 1-4 priority approach. Silly level of complexity. Or provide a decent UI to manage it.

All of this feels like the new version has to be more complex in order to be the new version, much like Paradox Interactive, fetishizing complexity for their core base. You've missed the 90% of the people out there who might play it (and give you money) for the 10% who want this insane, time consuming, very complex logistics game. Not a solid business choice.

I have liked Matrix Games for a long time and bought many. But if the direction continues to be on the few people who post here all the time and the AI "Assists" don't really do the job, again a nod to those who want to spend days on their turns, then these games aren't for me.

< Message edited by vicberg -- 12/17/2021 5:02:44 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 5:49:35 AM   
overkill01

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 12/31/2015
Status: offline 		If it's not you're thing, then it's not you're thing, get over it.


In the end WitE aim's to be a realistic, history correct strategy game.

That will make it a complex game.

Being a complex game, it is to be expected that the game isn't perfect for everybody who is playing.

And they are still working to iron out problems with the game.


I think you just got you're expectations wrong.

< Message edited by overkill01 -- 12/17/2021 5:51:57 AM >

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 2
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 5:56:36 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		If the game forces an insane amount of work in order to achieve "historical accuracy" then you are confusing UI design with accuracy. Historical accuracy can be achieved with a solid UI. If the UI requires too much work to achieve that "accuracy", then you have software that is trying to achieve "accuracy" via complexity. Your appealing to the power gamers.

< Message edited by vicberg -- 12/17/2021 6:03:52 AM >

(in reply to overkill01)
Post #: 3
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:08:08 AM   
overkill01

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 12/31/2015
Status: offline 		Because it's a complex game (witch is intended), there is so much information to be displayed, so many functions to toggle and set.
Obviously, because of this, the UI wont be perfect, it never will.
And there certainly will always be people who dislike this or that, neither do I like the airplane transfer for example, much better in WitW.
I'm sure the dev's will still be working on it too.

You can't expect to have 1 thing and not having to deal with the negatives.
Every big strategy game has the same problem, John tiller's games for example.
You just learn to use it, it's just a thing you deal with if you want to play games like this.

They try to achieve historical accuracy while giving the player controll over it all, wich make it a complex game.

I think, overall, they did a great job with the UI .


< Message edited by overkill01 -- 12/17/2021 6:14:37 AM >

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 4
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:12:16 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		Seriously? You think transferring air units is easy? I've tried it. They did a great job with UI? How do you transfer air units easily? You're actually making my case. Appeal to the fanbois who want the historical "accuracy" over those who want to play the game.

< Message edited by vicberg -- 12/17/2021 6:19:33 AM >

(in reply to overkill01)
Post #: 5
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:20:22 AM   
overkill01

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 12/31/2015
Status: offline 		I literally said I don't like the air transfer, or maybe my english is worse then I thought.

But actually, it isn't hard at all, in the end you just select you're planes, drag a box and click transfer.
But yes I don't like it either.

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 6
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:21:28 AM   
Dreamslayer

 

Posts: 452
Joined: 10/31/2015
From: St.Petersburg
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Seriously? You think transferring air units is easy? I've tried it. They did a great job with UI? How do you transfer air units easily?

Try to look on 5-AOG Manual Ops.jpg in Manual folder.

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 7
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:22:56 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		That's my point. Why couldn't they create a simple UI, drag and drop. Why the complexity? That's appealing to the 10% of folks that post here. Sad. They really missed the boat.

(in reply to overkill01)
Post #: 8
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:23:49 AM   
overkill01

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 12/31/2015
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Appeal to the fanbois who want the historical "accuracy" over those who want to play the game.


Isn't that what a dev should do in the first place, appeal to the fan's (fanbois, are we gonna start insulting now ?) who actually liked and supported the previous games ?
even if it's only 10% ? 10% of what actually ? gamers ? that's a lot of people, 10%.

< Message edited by overkill01 -- 12/17/2021 6:25:50 AM >

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 9
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:24:53 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		I don't want to look and should look on 50 posts that tell me what I need to do? Geez. Don't you get it? Doesn't Matrix get it?

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 10
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:27:18 AM   
DeletedUser44

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/27/2021
Status: offline 		OMG Guys,

Are you fanbois on paid retainer? Maybe you have Matrix shares in your portfolio?

What a way dog-pile just because he is struggling. Hell, that was the title of his post!

The game is complex. There are some aspects of the UI that are very good. But some portions are in desperate need of some love. Dare say, some of the UI completely sucks.

WiTE2 is improving and getting better.

One area that vicberg addressed was the AI Assist. He is correct. It is currently completely sub-standard.

There is certainly room for improvements. I sincerely believe they are working to address some of the things vicberg identified. Give it another 3 months or so and it may be to the point of being easier for novice players.

Don't give up on it just yet.

(in reply to overkill01)
Post #: 11
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:28:23 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		Actually, no. Matrix should be going after market. Not sure if they are up on that yet. They are going after those who post on this site, meaning they are limiting their market. Significantly limiting their market. I'm not buying anymore Matrix Games after my experience with WITE2. Why? Spend days doing a turn? Tons of clicks? Not interested. I'm trying to help this company understand their broader market and it isn't the power gamers. Sure way to failure.

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 12
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:30:54 AM   
overkill01

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 12/31/2015
Status: offline 		In the end this is a neverending discussion within the wargaming community, both board and computer games.

How much historical accuracy should a dev sacrifice to make a game playable.

IMO WitE2 did just great.

If you don't like it that is fine, just get over it and find something else you like.

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 13
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:31:33 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		Yep

(in reply to overkill01)
Post #: 14
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:32:15 AM   
vicberg

 

Posts: 1176
Joined: 4/19/2008
Status: offline 		This isn't my game. And I'm good with that

< Message edited by vicberg -- 12/17/2021 6:33:28 AM >

(in reply to overkill01)
Post #: 15
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:34:54 AM   
Gunner Garidel

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 10/21/2021
Status: offline 		Without trying to get too deep into the weeds, I definitely classify as a 'noob' -- not as a gamer, but on computer games. The smartest thing I have done was to follow the YT Series WITE2 by Strategy Gaming Dojo. I did what he explained in the Air War part of the series, and, honestly, I did not find transferring air units to be at all difficult.

As to the game being complex, yes, I agree it is complex; however, there is a difference between being complex as to opposed to being 'complicated'. War, in and of itself, is a VERY complex endeavor, but, when push comes to shove, it is not at all complicated. Considering WITE2 is attempting to replicate the greatest conflict in the history of the WORLD, I would say the game is not overly 'complicated', all things considered.

_____________________________

Dudley 'Gunner' Garidel
CWO4 USMCR [Ret]
17 February 1969 - 1 August 2004
Semper Fidelis!
Non Sibi Sed Patriae!
Si Vis Pacem Parabellum!

(in reply to Dreamslayer)
Post #: 16
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 8:25:05 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sauron_II

..

One area that vicberg addressed was the AI Assist. He is correct. It is currently completely sub-standard.

....


like any AI routine, could it be better? In theory yes, though trying to make it behave differently can also make it behave worse - AI development is rarely linear

is it "completely sub-standard", well Gunulf is using it in his AAR with ATAtack and its not exactly hindering him, so, as happens a few times, there may just be a bit of over-claiming there?

As to the OP, not every game is for everyone. If I understand it right, Matrix/Slitherine seem to have a rough and ready division of more detailed games under the Matrix lable and more accessible games under Slitherine.

The core to any GG game is the underlying detail, that does tend to reduce the feasible player base but then its also what makes his games so good in the eyes of some players?

_____________________________


(in reply to DeletedUser44)
Post #: 17
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 9:51:03 AM   
xhoel


Posts: 3219
Joined: 6/24/2017
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

Seriously? You think transferring air units is easy?


Yes it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
Appeal to the fanbois who want the historical "accuracy" over those who want to play the game.


Yes, how terrible of a company to appeal to the people that enjoy a complex game. The horrors. Dont lash out on other players simply because the game is not what you wanted. The players who enjoy the complexity of the game also do so because of how accurate it is.

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
How do you transfer air units easily?


How do you say this and then when pointed to a single picture that explains air transfers you reply with this:

quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

I don't want to look and should look on 50 posts that tell me what I need to do? Geez. Don't you get it?


No, I dont get it. Can you explain why when pointed to the thing that answers your question, instead of opening a single, very simple picture file you would rather throw a tantrum like a child?

If you dont like the game, make productive arguments about what needs to be changed instead of going on a rant about players that actually enjoy the game. Or simply move on.





< Message edited by xhoel -- 12/17/2021 9:52:20 AM >

_____________________________

AAR WITW: Gotterdammerung 43-45
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4490035
AAR WITE: A Clash of Titans 41-45
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4488465
WitE 2 Tester and Test Coordinator

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 18
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 10:42:43 AM   
Khanti

 

Posts: 317
Joined: 8/28/2007
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg

(...)

I feel WITE2 is overly complex. It's for the 10% of the power gamers who post constantly on this site. The supply depot system is insane to manage directly, the UI also doesn't make it easy. The air war also way too complicated, too many clicks. Transferring Air Units should be as simple as drag and drop onto an airfield, but that's not the case. I'm guessing that's too easy. Depot management should NOT be based on priority basis, that has to be constantly adjusted, but a more simple drag and drop approach, where you set you supply lines every certain number of hexes. Want to prioritize, sure...set a depot to priority, but get rid of this 1-4 priority approach. Silly level of complexity. Or provide a decent UI to manage it.

(...)


Yes. Transferring Air Units should be as simple as drag and drop onto an airfield.
Yes. Depot management should NOT be based on priority basis, but easy to manage feature.
Yes. Air war is complex - still learning it without much success.

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 19
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 11:09:17 AM   
altipueri

 

Posts: 869
Joined: 11/14/2009
Status: offline 		I've been very generous in purchasing huge games that I will never play:

WITP-AE - War In The Pacific
PON - Pride of Nations
WON - Wars Of Napoleon

and now

WITE2

At least the WITE2 manual is heavy enough to keep the fire door open !

(in reply to Khanti)
Post #: 20
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 1:08:57 PM   
actrade

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		FWIW, when I started computer gaming back in the 1980s, the first game I fell in love with was Panzer General. Over time, I began to appreciate more complex games like WiTE, WiTP, WiTE2 and found my interests heading in that direction. Oh, I bought Panzer Corps 2 when it came out, but it didn't hold my interest for very long, not that it's a bad game, but I've changed. Think of it like women. When I was younger, looks were everything, but as I've grown and gotten older, I'd rather have a wife who is complex, is a great cook and mother. Point being, not everything is for everyone and certainly not for all time. For the OP, I understand where you are coming from and there are TONS of games out there that aren't as complex, but why come on these forums and complain about one of the few truly complex games that some of us love?

(in reply to altipueri)
Post #: 21
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 2:15:22 PM   
vinnysix

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 8/28/2021
From: UK
Status: offline 		Well put mate.. ;) BTW SDG Dojo is recreating a 4 part intro vid section again very good overview so far...

< Message edited by vinnysix -- 12/17/2021 2:16:39 PM >

(in reply to actrade)
Post #: 22
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 2:48:41 PM   
king171717


Posts: 294
Joined: 5/14/2016
Status: offline 		Just because you are struggling with how a game works, doesn't mean it should change for you. Once you learn how to play the game, its really straight forward. I recommend watching some youtube videos to learn how the game functions. Read some AAR's to get insight into what other players do. The Game is well worth learning, and is my all time favorite game! And I have played a lot of other games.

< Message edited by king171717 -- 12/17/2021 2:51:28 PM >

(in reply to vinnysix)
Post #: 23
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 2:53:53 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		"If you don't like the game, make productive arguments about what needs to be changed instead of going on a rant about players that actually enjoy the game. Or simply move on."

~ xhoel +1... You cut through the nonsense and illuminate the battle ground we find ourselves operating in exceptionally well.

~ This game is not for everyone. It is not perfect. It requires commitment and a will to learn not only how something works but the reasoning it was done that way. The joy comes from mastering something. The frustration comes from learning that what you spent hours perfecting (1st Turn air war) only to discover it means little or nothing on the grand scheme of things. Then you find out Axis doctrine was to focus on the destruction of enemy airpower, when perhaps it should have planned for the destruction of infrastructure or ground support. They could not do it all. You are stuck with that decision.

~ The Strategy Gaming Dojo tutorials are useful but should be not taken as gospel. He is not an expert at this game, far from it. He is a likable Noob who is committed to learning and sharing.

_____________________________

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

(in reply to vinnysix)
Post #: 24
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 3:29:11 PM   
actrade

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		Now Pete, I see no need for calling SGD a Noob. He is very entertaining and loves the games we love. Calling him a noob merely helps prove the OP's thinly veiled point that this game is just for grognards and dinosaurs of a dying breed. I am FAR from an expert and have little inclination to invest the time/energy that some on the forums do in understanding the nuts and bolts of this game, although I do lurk and learn what I can and appreciate the passion these individuals display. That doesn't make them superior or inferior. As far as SGD is concerned, he has been a great ambassador for this game and others of this genre and has probably done more to help continue Matrix publishing these kinds of games than most if not everyone on these forums. Let's give credit where credit is due and leave the belittling comments out.

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 25
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 4:18:47 PM   
Zovs


Posts: 6668
Joined: 2/23/2009
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
I played WITE and WITP, for a while. I realized that WITP requires hours and days to make work because of a pretty bad UI that really doesn't manage bulk at all. Way too time consuming. I'm hoping at some point, the WITP UI is improved. I'd buy that game again.


I find WITP-AE to be very awesome and the UI is not bad at all, in fact its quite intuitive. On the plus side Matrix is updating the beta .26 beta patch to a standard 26 exe and doing some minor improvements to address a few bugs and data issues. I think time consuming is in the eyes of the beholder. One persons idea of 'wasting time' is another persons splendor of micro managing the game system to thoroughly enjoy the emersion factor. So its just a perception thing, you perceive it one way and I (and a lot of folks) another way. Just look at all the traffic in the WITP-AE threads.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
WITE1 was fun. Air war was too abstracted, but otherwise fun and relatively fast. I read through exciting AARs from players. Solid game.


It was fun when it first came out but I am so glad that the air system was thrown away, talk about a click fest, no thanks.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
I feel WITE2 is overly complex. It's for the 10% of the power gamers who post constantly on this site. The supply depot system is insane to manage directly, the UI also doesn't make it easy. The air war also way too complicated, too many clicks. Transferring Air Units should be as simple as drag and drop onto an airfield, but that's not the case. I'm guessing that's too easy. Depot management should NOT be based on priority basis, that has to be constantly adjusted, but a more simple drag and drop approach, where you set you supply lines every certain number of hexes. Want to prioritize, sure...set a depot to priority, but get rid of this 1-4 priority approach. Silly level of complexity. Or provide a decent UI to manage it.


I disagree, its only as complex as you want it to be. I also disagree its for '10% of the power gamers on this site' that is just nonsense. Its for any true war gaming affection-ado that loves detailed monster war gamers. The supply system is very easy to manage manually and the UI is very intuitive and elegant. The air war is not too complicated and has way less clicks then WITE, you just setup your AD and let them fly each turn easy peasy. Transferring air units to other bases is very simple, I use the right click method and poof your done. Depot management and Supply Priority have to be understood in context and its very easy to understand and grasp and use and the UI for it is just fine. Again just more perceptions and misunderstandings.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
All of this feels like the new version has to be more complex in order to be the new version, much like Paradox Interactive, fetishizing complexity for their core base. You've missed the 90% of the people out there who might play it (and give you money) for the 10% who want this insane, time consuming, very complex logistics game. Not a solid business choice.


Not true and I don't agree with your assumption. I have no experience with nor interest in Paradox. Again, this is just your opinion and we all have opinions.


quote:

ORIGINAL: vicberg
I have liked Matrix Games for a long time and bought many. But if the direction continues to be on the few people who post here all the time and the AI "Assists" don't really do the job, again a nod to those who want to spend days on their turns, then these games aren't for me.


The AI assist's work just fine. It does not take 'days' to do a turn. For turn 1 as the Axis I spend about 45 minutes to an hour to setup my AD and then about 3-5 hours to do my first Axis turn, from then on its about 2-4 hours per turn. Great fun and a great way to spend my time.



_____________________________


Beta Tester for:
Flashpoint Campaigns: Sudden Storm
War in the East 1 & 2
WarPlan & WarPlan Pacific
Valor & Victory
DG CWIE 2
SPWW2 & SPMBT scenario creator

(in reply to vicberg)
Post #: 26
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 6:33:24 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		actrade;
You are right. Sorry about that. SGD is not a NOOB. It is just watching his 41-campaign video (first playthrough) and yelling at some of the tragic errors he made was a bit frustrating. Remember the forgotten Mountain division or the unrepaired rail in the Crimea or his merging of divisions during the winter of 41. Still, he is a persistent SOB who refuses to admit defeat and I admire that. His newest tutorials are just what is needed for the new batch of recruits.

_____________________________

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

(in reply to Zovs)
Post #: 27
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 7:05:22 PM   
actrade

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		He is persistent. I couldn't imagine still playing my first playthrough with the release version of the game. Nor could I imagine public scrutiny of my own boneheaded moves lol.

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 28
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/17/2021 8:04:23 PM   
vinnysix

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 8/28/2021
From: UK
Status: offline 		SGD is a lawyer by trade - hence his ability to communicate and teach. He has certainly helped me get into the game for which i am grateful... I will add though i am now moving past SGD and starting to really ingratiate the content on those forums from you guys to take to next level... Zovs GibsonPete Xhowl Sauran JubJub loki and the list goes on awesome stuff - i was i bit concerned about STeam chat to begin with taking away from these forums - however i now see it as a stepping stone into this forum... Once they know where the real truth is//// ;)

< Message edited by vinnysix -- 12/17/2021 8:47:10 PM >

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 29
RE: Struggling with this Game - 12/18/2021 5:48:38 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		I am no Jedi. I simply pass on what I have learned. To compare me to Zovs, Loki100, HILYA, jubjub or SauronII is like comparing a high school team to a super bowl team. High praise for something I have not earned. They have knowledge, skills and abilities that are beyond mere mortals. I predict you are now a simple learner but given time you will become the master.

_____________________________

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

(in reply to vinnysix)
Post #: 30
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