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Why there are no more players? - 12/10/2021 12:47:36 PM

Nikel

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline

Just wondering. Is WPP a failure?

With all the activity in WitP-AE forum so many years after release, full of mods, AARs, quarrels between antagonic forum members

, and now even new patches by the original team members!?

WPP was supposed to be the solution to the pacific theatre lovers that just cannot handle WitP-AE complexities.

So what happened: not historical, not realistic, too simple,...?

I would like to know the opinion of other forum members.

< Message edited by Nikel -- 12/10/2021 1:26:29 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/10/2021 1:23:55 PM

Matto

Posts: 1138
Joined: 11/24/2000
From: Czech Republic
Status: offline

I bought it last Sunday, tried some small scenarios and started full campaign yesterday ... my first impression is really positive. No to complex like WitP, but still enough to have good feeling from detailed play ... and it is really quicker, I like it

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My MatrixGames: WitP, WitP AE, WPO, JTCS, P&S, CoGEE, ATG, GoA, B.Academy, C-GW, OoB all DLCs, all SC, FoG2/E, most AGEOD games ...

(in reply to Nikel)

Post #: 2

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/10/2021 1:32:09 PM

Nikel

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline

Good to know Matto. I remember you from Ageod forum.

(in reply to Matto)

Post #: 3

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/10/2021 1:48:48 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

We haven't hit Steam yet. That will be in early 2022. There will be a new influx of players.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to Nikel)

Post #: 4

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/10/2021 10:45:26 PM

generalfdog

Posts: 214
Joined: 12/18/2020
Status: offline

Nikel Not sure why you say that I don't have any issues finding opponents and it is a great game. If you need an opponent I would gladly play you

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 5

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/10/2021 10:58:16 PM

Remington700

Posts: 1057
Joined: 5/16/2021
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel

Just wondering. Is WPP a failure?

For me WPP is a major success! Although the game may not be for everyone. And I play differently than the majority, using hotseat without a human opponent. So please know I do not speak for the group.

I think the game does hit the mark between what I would call "complex/time consuming" and "blow and go". I have spent hours playing Ageod releases and TOAW. I consider all to be much the same in complexity, while being different at the same time. It depends upon how deep you get into it. There are things I miss from those games such as the treatment of leaders. And the age old argument of should a river be in the middle of a hex or on the border.

It has been very hard to find the middle ground between WitP-AE and less detailed Pacific Theater of Operations games. WPP hits the middle very well and as such, works well with my work/family schedule. I know we lost some dedicated PTO players early after the release due to the ease of invading India and Australia. It just does not sit well with those that want historical relevance, including myself. I believe this has been adjusted, however I cannot say for sure as I have house ruled away from it since the start.

The War Plan community seems to be mostly focused in the ETO which may be driven more by interest in history than in just game play. However, I think in general, any PTO games or simulations will have less dynamic outcomes than what happens on the other side of the world. Unless player skill level is uneven, generally you start with Japanese dominance, have a period of equality and then Allied dominance. Dominance swings quickly with a few key Naval battles. Compared to the ETO where dominance is gained slower, but more steadily though large scale land combat.

For me the success in WPP lies in the little skirmishes that set up the big naval confrontations. Once the invasion of West India is taken out of the equation, as the allies you hold on by doing little things like night supply runs to key bases. And use air power to offset the naval imbalance. All to just survive. Playing Japan, you have to hit hard and fast, capturing all that you can before the momentum swings. And do everything possible to cut supply to India to keep the fight in Burma. However overextension can be a disaster so you have to know when to dig in. There is a lot of thought that can go into this game. And while the path to an Allied victory may differ from history, it does seem reasonable to me. I follow either the MacArthur or Nimitz plan based on the enemies defense. A Japanese win by points does reasonably replicate a conditional peace; although the historical likelihood is still a great debate.

So to finally answer your question, I think more are playing WPP than who post on the forum - which is the norm for most successful games. Since WPP has not yet been released to Steam, sales must still be strong. And if this is not the case, I cannot understand why. WWP is an outstanding game in my opinion.

(in reply to Nikel)

Post #: 6

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/11/2021 10:34:38 AM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

The game engine is the same than WPE. As such, there are less posting about potential bugs. I don't think it mean less players.

Regarding China, I am still puzzled by the supply situation in the south. Did not find out yet where does it come from.

Regarding Australia, with the latest patch, its invasion is now extremely difficult for Japan.

Regarding India, defending Ceylon is still problematic when all the Japanese navy is there to do naval blockades. As I said before, the Royal Navy lacks some historical ships to protect Ceylon against an invasion.
I have send a complete list of OOB changes for the Royal Navy in Pacific to Alvaro for consideration.

I also find that the Royal Air Force is not enough represented in Ceylon or India. For me, the Royal Air Force should be represented in Singapore at turn one, understrengthed but represented. I have a perfect location for it so that it could be overrunned turn one by the Japanese army. The goal is to find this air unit back in India quickly so that an invasion of Ceylon can be harder.

As an enhancement, I think that the scale of the game must be changed for CA groups. There are not enough CA group represented on the map. I would propose that a CA group is two heavy cruisers instead of four.

Other than that, the game is fun especially with the nice addition of invisible fleets.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Remington700)

Post #: 7

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/11/2021 1:56:33 PM

Nikel

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: generalfdog

Nikel Not sure why you say that I don't have any issues finding opponents and it is a great game. If you need an opponent I would gladly play you

Thanks generalfdog, you are very kind.

But was not referring to that.

It was more the lack of forum activity as a measure of the game failure or not.

< Message edited by Nikel -- 12/11/2021 2:55:02 PM >

(in reply to generalfdog)

Post #: 8

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/11/2021 2:19:36 PM

Nikel

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Remington700

For me WPP is a major success! Although the game may not be for everyone. And I play differently than the majority, using hotseat without a human opponent. So please know I do not speak for the group.

I think the game does hit the mark between what I would call "complex/time consuming" and "blow and go". I have spent hours playing Ageod releases and TOAW. I consider all to be much the same in complexity, while being different at the same time. It depends upon how deep you get into it. There are things I miss from those games such as the treatment of leaders. And the age old argument of should a river be in the middle of a hex or on the border.

It has been very hard to find the middle ground between WitP-AE and less detailed Pacific Theater of Operations games. WPP hits the middle very well and as such, works well with my work/family schedule. I know we lost some dedicated PTO players early after the release due to the ease of invading India and Australia. It just does not sit well with those that want historical relevance, including myself. I believe this has been adjusted, however I cannot say for sure as I have house ruled away from it since the start.

The War Plan community seems to be mostly focused in the ETO which may be driven more by interest in history than in just game play. However, I think in general, any PTO games or simulations will have less dynamic outcomes than what happens on the other side of the world. Unless player skill level is uneven, generally you start with Japanese dominance, have a period of equality and then Allied dominance. Dominance swings quickly with a few key Naval battles. Compared to the ETO where dominance is gained slower, but more steadily though large scale land combat.

For me the success in WPP lies in the little skirmishes that set up the big naval confrontations. Once the invasion of West India is taken out of the equation, as the allies you hold on by doing little things like night supply runs to key bases. And use air power to offset the naval imbalance. All to just survive. Playing Japan, you have to hit hard and fast, capturing all that you can before the momentum swings. And do everything possible to cut supply to India to keep the fight in Burma. However overextension can be a disaster so you have to know when to dig in. There is a lot of thought that can go into this game. And while the path to an Allied victory may differ from history, it does seem reasonable to me. I follow either the MacArthur or Nimitz plan based on the enemies defense. A Japanese win by points does reasonably replicate a conditional peace; although the historical likelihood is still a great debate.

So to finally answer your question, I think more are playing WPP than who post on the forum - which is the norm for most successful games. Since WPP has not yet been released to Steam, sales must still be strong. And if this is not the case, I cannot understand why. WWP is an outstanding game in my opinion.

Thanks for your detailed answer.

The leaders is one of the factors, you will see Nimitz and Yamamoto in the splash screen, but never more in the game.

So historic simulation is THE FACTOR, in my opinion. Not only the internal game mechanics have to work and be as bug-free as possible, there is something more, just my feelings.

The middle place should be the most common, so why so much activity in WitP-AE, a monster game, after so many years? Because the game is a success, and I doubt it is becase the PTO gamers are specially grognards.

The same we can say with Ageod, the most successful were the ACW games, and so is reflected in the forum activity. I do not think good games generate less forum activity because the players are playing. When you enjoy a game, you post in the forum bugs to improve it, post historical comments or doubts and search for other players, even create AARs (a badly remunerated job

). And this in turn generates even more.

< Message edited by Nikel -- 12/11/2021 2:29:55 PM >

(in reply to Remington700)

Post #: 9

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/11/2021 2:52:33 PM

Nikel

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

The game engine is the same than WPE. As such, there are less posting about potential bugs. I don't think it mean less players.

Regarding China, I am still puzzled by the supply situation in the south. Did not find out yet where does it come from.

Regarding Australia, with the latest patch, its invasion is now extremely difficult for Japan.

Regarding India, defending Ceylon is still problematic when all the Japanese navy is there to do naval blockades. As I said before, the Royal Navy lacks some historical ships to protect Ceylon against an invasion.
I have send a complete list of OOB changes for the Royal Navy in Pacific to Alvaro for consideration.

I also find that the Royal Air Force is not enough represented in Ceylon or India. For me, the Royal Air Force should be represented in Singapore at turn one, understrengthed but represented. I have a perfect location for it so that it could be overrunned turn one by the Japanese army. The goal is to find this air unit back in India quickly so that an invasion of Ceylon can be harder.

As an enhancement, I think that the scale of the game must be changed for CA groups. There are not enough CA group represented on the map. I would propose that a CA group is two heavy cruisers instead of four.

Other than that, the game is fun especially with the nice addition of invisible fleets.

Probably you are right with the engine and the bugs posting.

And then you comment the OOB, which is another historic simulation factor that is required for a wargame success.

And the scale, I'd say this is number three?

< Message edited by Nikel -- 12/11/2021 3:08:07 PM >

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 10

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/12/2021 6:36:12 AM

Meteor2

Posts: 429
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

Interessting points. I am finding the absense of more AAR a little bit disapointing, too and came to a similar conclusion (hopefully wrong).
I played WitP-AE year ago and never finished a complete game, but nevertheless it was absolutely bringing me into �involvement� into the time frame.
When I saw subs approaching my convoy and firing torps (the small battle �film�), I was really involved.
So, despite the game being a monster, the accurate OOB and ships and units on the map, gave me the impression, that this is the ultimate game, worth spending my time.
WPP is still in the phase of adjustments and corrections. The OOB has to be correct and basic historical facts have to be incorporated.
The balance argument is valid for a game (WitP victories possible for both sides), but the historical approach is key for me. And little details, that makes the involvement.
WPP is absolutely a good game, but now I am waiting, how things settle with new patches.

(in reply to Nikel)

Post #: 11

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/12/2021 2:47:54 PM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e
Regarding China, I am still puzzled by the supply situation in the south. Did not find out yet where does it come from.

This is a bit of a game killer for me.

This large dead zone appears, which neither side can pass and the Japanese begin attacking from the North.

If this is intended, then hexes should have "0" supply, not dark shading with nothing in it.

This appears independent of the weather, though I am not sure it is independent of the season.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 12

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/12/2021 4:00:31 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

The patch has updated the area with an extra port for the Allies. Consider this Pacific is 4x the size of Europe so each hex is 4 Europe hexes. There were tons of jungle, hills, and a lack of infrastructure.

It should be a see saw where the Japanese player pushes to a point then has to start falling back due to the weight of the Commonwealth forces. But not putting enough troops there means being overrun.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to *Lava*)

Post #: 13

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/12/2021 4:12:46 PM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline

No, mate.

This problem happens in Southern China.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 14

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/12/2021 6:45:54 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

So what is the problem in the south?

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to *Lava*)

Post #: 15

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/13/2021 5:38:04 AM

GiveWarAchance

Posts: 389
Joined: 2/11/2015
Status: offline

I just bought this game. I really like the Pacific war including China so this game is perfect.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 16

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/13/2021 6:33:30 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikel

Probably you are right with the engine and the bugs posting.

And then you comment the OOB, which is another historic simulation factor that is required for a wargame success.

And the scale, I'd say this is number three?

Point number 4 for a Pacific game is also carrier operations.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Nikel)

Post #: 17

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/13/2021 6:34:30 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

WPP is absolutely a good game, but now I am waiting, how things settle with new patches.

What are you waiting for? New features?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Meteor2)

Post #: 18

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/13/2021 7:22:31 PM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

So what is the problem in the south?

A black hole in supply. How? I don't have the answer. Where? Here:

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 19

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/13/2021 9:07:56 PM

*Lava*

Posts: 1924
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline

Yep, that is the area.

I don't have any saves to illustrate it, but it becomes a pit of darkness, which neither side can move into.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 20

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/13/2021 10:00:37 PM

Remington700

Posts: 1057
Joined: 5/16/2021
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Are we talking about the 1941 scenario? I do not have a problem with supply. I did have to bring in a Chinese leader for one hex. Otherwise supply exists, and is strong in some places.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 21

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/13/2021 10:01:38 PM

Remington700

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Status: offline

Adding a leader

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Remington700)

Post #: 22

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/13/2021 10:05:09 PM

Remington700

Posts: 1057
Joined: 5/16/2021
Status: offline

Sorry I should have posted this first.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Remington700 -- 12/13/2021 10:09:46 PM >

(in reply to Remington700)

Post #: 23

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/14/2021 8:21:04 AM

Meteor2

Posts: 429
Joined: 7/20/2009
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

quote:

ORIGINAL: Meteor2

WPP is absolutely a good game, but now I am waiting, how things settle with new patches.

What are you waiting for? New features?

No, it is not about features. I have the Impression, that the correcting and tuning phase is not finished yet. And I am not talking about finetuning.
The strategies regarding India, Australia or the carrier mechanics were debated for a long time, so I decided for myself to follow the discussion and wait, how things settled in the end.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 24

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/14/2021 10:03:09 AM

MarechalJoffre

Posts: 84
Joined: 12/18/2014
Status: offline

I grabbed it during this sale and have been enjoying it so far. I'd argue it needs a few more smaller scenarios, or a later campaign start date.

(in reply to Meteor2)

Post #: 25

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/14/2021 2:22:13 PM

AlvaroSousa

Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline

@Meteor2 - this last patch there was a lot of balancing to slow the game down. I played 2 games of which both Australia and India were invaded and defended by the Allies successfully. I also added the important of major ports and port upgrades.

@MarechalJorrre - Most played don't play the small scenarios or beta test them. So when I make a small scenario it is often not balanced properly and untested. Luckily the China one was tested enough in Beta to pass the sniff test.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to MarechalJoffre)

Post #: 26

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/18/2021 5:27:55 PM

Thorgrimm

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/18/2021
Status: offline

I just purchased WP & WPP last Monday, and I must say that I am having a blast. However, to answer your question I as an example, personally ever if at all, post on forums. I lurk far more than I will ever post.

Moreover, I believe that most of the posts on a forum are by a minority if all players. I suspect that if you took a count that you would find that the vast majority of the posts are by a small percentage of the game's actual number of players.

As an aside, I am like Remington700 and prefer hot-seat by myself.

As a question for Alvaro, What is the reasoning behind the consumption of LCs in an invasion? At the end of the war the USN had over 6000 ships, and 85% of those were Landing Craft. Without an actual air strike or naval damage, it it hard to justify taking out an LST or APA.

Cheers, Thor

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 27

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/18/2021 6:15:26 PM

Nikel

Posts: 355
Joined: 3/24/2009
Status: offline

Enjoy your games Thor

Probably you are right. But I was comparing with respect to WitP-AE. If only a minority of the players post in the forum, how many people play that monster game?!

Regarding one of the problems, the admirals or the lack of them. This is a pic from Ageod last Napoleonic game (Nelson and his Mediterranean Fleet hunting the French Fleet

).

You see Nelson commanding it but in the map, the counter is ship. Nice solution.

Can this be done In WPP?

Besides some top admirals commanded from land. Nimitz in Pearl Harbor (Pacific Fleet HQ) and Yamamoto from Kure or Truk (Combined Fleet HQ).

< Message edited by Nikel -- 12/18/2021 6:23:18 PM >

(in reply to Thorgrimm)

Post #: 28

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/18/2021 7:21:24 PM

Thorgrimm

Posts: 20
Joined: 12/18/2021
Status: offline

On the lack of leaders, I wholeheartedly agree. I firmly believe that leadership is a larger force modifier than most game designers give it credit for.

Cases in point. For poor leadership affect on a campaign we have to look no further than Singapore and Percival. He totally screwed the pooch for the Brits. For a good leadership example, and as a US Marine Vet, we can look at Col. Edson on Guadalcanal. His outnumbered forces held Bloody Ridge against overwhelming odds. He knew what to do, and when to do it.

These examples are just two of so many that exist in military history.

So, IMHO, I think that a military simulation without leadership is removing one of the most important force modifiers to ever exist. In brief, I would hope that the developer would consider adding leaders to the Global version of the Warplan series. Otherwise it just boils down to a numbers game...

Cheers, Thor

< Message edited by Thorgrimm -- 12/18/2021 7:23:50 PM >

(in reply to Nikel)

Post #: 29

RE: Why there are no more players? - 12/18/2021 10:12:42 PM

Remington700

Posts: 1057
Joined: 5/16/2021
Status: offline

Welcome to the forums Thor.

Nikel you are killing me. First CW2 and now this. The screenshot of Wars of Napoleon brings back such good memories and disappoint. Thank you for posting it! And I agree with both of you about leadership.

(in reply to Thorgrimm)

Post #: 30