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Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentage high

 
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Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentage high - 12/18/2021 10:54:02 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		I know that tanks, especially in this time period, were complex machines and prone to breakdowns.

So I am fine with tanks getting damaged just for moving through hexes. But I have to ask, is there anything you have to do as a player to increase the chance that they will be repaired? Like maybe resting the division for a week? It's getting a bit funny to see certain divisions going below 70 in the undamaged percentage just from flipping hexes for 3 turns without seeing any combat.
Post #: 1
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/18/2021 11:19:50 PM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		In another topic where was a discussion and a link to a source describing how many tanks were ready/damaged after a simple march. And looks like game is modeling it pretty well.
But the problem in game is that it is almost impossible to get replacements for the panzers on front, unless you will use super depot to bring insane amount of supply.
In my game i am in the same situation on turn 5-6 with some of the panzer division close to a 50-60 TOE.
I would be happy to swap all of them to motorized divisions.
And the problem is that even if you refit your panzers on the 2nd/3rd line depot and bring to an action and encounter enemy tanks - most likely it will be a huge loss in the battle. So its a funny (not) situation where you do not want to fight with them. Only attack some infantry divisions where you know that there will be no reserve activation.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 12/18/2021 11:20:54 PM >

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 2
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/19/2021 4:25:50 AM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		Replacing lost AFVs in 1941 being a hurdle is fine from a historical point of view. But I'm really curious if there is anything you can do as a player to increase the repair chance during each logistics phase.


If there isn't one, then I guess I'll have to accept that the Panzer divisions will permanently have damaged AFVs just from flipping hexes.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 3
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/19/2021 9:10:40 AM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		There will be always damaged elements, unless division is static for multiple turns.
For the AFVs - do not go through a swap, heavy wood and probably rough.
Can not imagine what else can you do.

< Message edited by Stamb -- 12/19/2021 9:11:08 AM >

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 4
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/19/2021 9:45:35 AM   
Rosencrantus

 

Posts: 318
Joined: 1/9/2021
From: Canada
Status: offline 		Moving along higher quality roads also reduce the amount of damaged elements in your divisions as they move. So during the first few turns of Barbarossa you should try to do as much admin movement along average or good roads and clear terrain.

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 5
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/19/2021 9:54:40 AM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		These sort of confirm my fears that once you have damaged AFVs, it's up to pure RNG whether they get fixed in the next logistics phase or not and that the only thing you can try doing is avoiding damaged elements in the first place. Oh well. So much for those Panzer repair workshops integrated in the divisions, eh?

(in reply to Rosencrantus)
Post #: 6
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/19/2021 10:12:10 AM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		I am also wondering if damaged elements are repaired (in place) at all or waiting in a queue to be sent back to a closest depot? As often i can see that division replacements are negative.

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 7
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/19/2021 11:34:45 AM   
actrade

 

Posts: 283
Joined: 11/3/2006
Status: offline 		I very, very rarely use my panzers for actual combat (just for encirclements) and when they get under 80% I put them on depots to repair. I don't seem to have an issue keeping them up, albeit later in the game when you don't have that luxury it is a different story.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 8
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/19/2021 1:29:24 PM   
jubjub

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 5/2/2021
Status: offline 		Wow that’s an aggressive repair strategy. I usually wait until they get below 50% TOE to refit.

It seems like a single battle puts them below 80% TOE.

(in reply to actrade)
Post #: 9
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/19/2021 1:57:54 PM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		Below 50% TOE for total elements or just without the damaged elements? If the latter, do you have any idea if they get repaired or replaced by new ones?

(in reply to jubjub)
Post #: 10
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/19/2021 4:38:14 PM   
dudefan

 

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/26/2021
Status: offline 		Maybe @loki100 can help us out.
He wrote in his AAR:

quote:



ORIGINAL: loki100

I've basically been using these turns to refit weakened formations. A steady stream of Pzr divisions have gone to the reserve to both dump obsolete tanks and refit.

Despite some claims to the contrary, by bringing them back one by one and using different NSS over time, they all arrive with 40+ MP and plenty of trucks."



Does this.mean it is better to bring them to reserve than to a depot near the front (what I do atm). Or should I bring them back to an nss? Can you shed light on advantages and disadvantages of your strategy?



< Message edited by dudefan -- 12/19/2021 4:39:55 PM >

(in reply to Jango32)
Post #: 11
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/20/2021 2:25:36 AM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Going to the reserve may create a truck issue when they are brought back.

_____________________________

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

(in reply to dudefan)
Post #: 12
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/20/2021 6:49:57 AM   
Jango32

 

Posts: 307
Joined: 3/15/2021
Status: offline 		Getting them back to the front line in 1941 is a more problematic issue than getting the trucks back, because you need to use the rail to do so. And because you have the freight penalties in 1941 and are still converting the main line, it's probably not ideal...

(in reply to GibsonPete)
Post #: 13
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/20/2021 11:18:46 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dudefan

Maybe @loki100 can help us out.
He wrote in his AAR:

quote:



ORIGINAL: loki100

I've basically been using these turns to refit weakened formations. A steady stream of Pzr divisions have gone to the reserve to both dump obsolete tanks and refit.

Despite some claims to the contrary, by bringing them back one by one and using different NSS over time, they all arrive with 40+ MP and plenty of trucks."



Does this.mean it is better to bring them to reserve than to a depot near the front (what I do atm). Or should I bring them back to an nss? Can you shed light on advantages and disadvantages of your strategy?




clearly this is a trade off but I think it works for several reasons.

a) hidden in the manual (so hidden even I can't easily find it back) is the information that when you replace an existing AFV there is both a freight cost to deliver the shiny new bit of kit and to take away the old rubbish. Now at the end of a stressed supply line that dual cost may well be enough to undermine something else. So what you get is that pre-war Czech stuff being retained even when more modern tanks are in the pool (as the replacement costs - in terms of freight) are hard to pay. In the reserve, a Pzr division will both fill out gaps and dump the older stuff - in the main you don't want to be relying on the Czech tanks too much in 1942

b) I think the interaction with the truck stock seems to be situational. I have no idea where the cross over line is but I am careful with my logistics across 1941 and (less in my favour) have tended to get stopped well to the west of the historical point. This I think simply reflects the patches that I played 1941 under. But of course its relevant in that I have a better truck/need ratio than maybe someone who is hanging out around Kalinin-Tula-Rostov.

c) But what I find is if I pull a Pzr division to the reserve one turn, when it comes back a few turns later it has a decent (mid-30s, usually 40s) MP on return. I'm careful to only return one each game turn and rotate between the NSS (no idea if this helps but it certainly doesn't hinder)

d) So my view is if your truck/need ratio is ok (and I can't define ok in a more precise manner) then the reserve seems to to work out better than on map. In part for filling out gaps but also for removing older stuff. Usually come March-May 42 you can cope with missing Pzr divisions, most Soviet players (& the AI) will not be pushing and you are likely to be redeploying to match up to your summer plans. Also, that period you don't get many fresh units so there are not that many unit moves on your rail net

Roger

_____________________________


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Post #: 14
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/20/2021 11:27:27 AM   
Stamb

 

Posts: 1030
Joined: 10/26/2021
Status: offline 		What i noticed during my game vs AI is that NSS have very low truck even if there are panzer divisions assigned to OKH with priority 4 on top of them, so i was trying to get trucks while in reserve and sometimes near front, as trucks are typically concentrated there.

Probably there was some changes in logistics, as all of the trucks stayed in a division while it was in a reserve (or maybe i was just lucky).

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 15
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/20/2021 2:07:06 PM   
jubjub

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 5/2/2021
Status: offline 		I haven't been able to test it fully, but it seems like units transferring from western europe always arrive with their full complements of trucks. May be worth it to transfer to WE first, then to the map.

(in reply to Stamb)
Post #: 16
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/20/2021 9:56:19 PM   
dudefan

 

Posts: 139
Joined: 2/26/2021
Status: offline 		Thank you all for the insights

(in reply to jubjub)
Post #: 17
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/21/2021 6:45:31 AM   
loki100


Posts: 10920
Joined: 10/20/2012
From: Utlima Thule
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jubjub

I haven't been able to test it fully, but it seems like units transferring from western europe always arrive with their full complements of trucks. May be worth it to transfer to WE first, then to the map.


not sure about this but worth an experiment

the scripted transfers will bring their own truck allocation, I'm not sure about voluntary ones as I never play with Full Theatre control. So the status of the scripted reinforcements is a poor guide to what happens when a transfer is done by choice

Also watch out also for the refit rules in non-reserve theatres. Units are flipped automatically to/from refit according to their TOE, so a reasonably strong unit that you want to bring up near full strength will be very slow to improve its TOE, its probably going to be far faster in an on-map depot. Bear in mind here that TOE is a blunt tool, a Pzr division low on tanks but otherwise well off will have a decent TOE %

_____________________________


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Post #: 18
RE: Maintaining Panzer division undamaged TOE percentag... - 12/21/2021 3:13:02 PM   
GibsonPete


Posts: 308
Joined: 11/5/2014
Status: offline 		Jubjub your proposal has merit. I imagine there are a lot of advantages to it.

_____________________________

“Reader, suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself.”

(in reply to loki100)
Post #: 19
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