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Vichy France - 12/18/2021 9:51:00 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline 		Apparently North Africa (NA) Vichy France (VF), i.e. not Syria, can be invaded by either side, British/Axis without causing mainland VF to become involved. This is a little absurd.

If the Axis attacks VF anywhere but Syria, then all of VF should become Allied. If just the British attack VF NA, then all of VF should become German.

The only time mainland VF should remain neutral is if the US + anyone else attacks NA VF.

Also why does capturing Algeria cause Morocco to surrender (or Tunisa for that matter)? You should have to capture Rabat to cause Morocco to surrender since that is the capital of Morocco.

The reason for these questions is the Axis caused all of VF NA to surrender by capturing Algeris and then they sailed troops from France in TRANSPORTS (no German warships involved) to the Atlantic side of Morocco and landed them without any interference from the British fleets stationed at Gibraltar.

So British scout craft, small vessels + aircraft, are somehow missing a transport fleet big enough to carry several corps sail from French ports, down Spain's coast, and disembark troops a few hundred miles away from a major British base and fleet stationed there? And nothing happens?

We barely had the lift capacity to get three divisions across the English Channel, Yet Germany has enough lift to transport corps to Morocco from France in 1940?

This is NOT an invasion since the Atlantic ports turned German when Algeria is captured some 600 miles away. Really?

As far as I can tell the ONLY way the Allies could have stopped this in the game is if they had a fleet at sea 4 hexes away from these ports. Which is really a stupid mechanic.

A fleet should have the ability to intercept ANY moving fleet within a one dot move of a hex the opposing fleet is moving into. One dot to move, one dot to attack. Hell even half a one dot would be better than what we have now.



Post #: 1
RE: Vichy France - 12/18/2021 10:29:10 PM   
Nirosi

 

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Status: offline 		I understand the logistical problem with transports, fleet etc. However for the political side, I think it would be unrealistic and unhistorical to force all Vichy into the war if a colony is invaded.

The British not only attacked the French fleet in 1940, they also took Syria in 1941 (and attacked Dakar) with only minor reactions from Vichy France. Certainly did not become a German ally in "game terms". Australia even maintained relations with Vichy until... 1944! And when the Allies landed in North Africa, it was actually the Germans that decided to invade the rest mainland France been afraid of what could happen if they did not, such as Vichy actually join the Allies [was a real even if probably unrealistic worry at that stage] (which could not be reproduced if Vichy would join the Germans obviously). So I think that political and historial speaking, the actually rule is quite ok and relatively similar to what can been seen in some other wargames (certainly not rare rule).

For Algiers, I can only assume it is to represent how fast the tide turned with many Vichy solfier and officers laying down weapons and actually joining the Allies. The landing in North Africa was about as much a political switch as a military conquest.

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 12/18/2021 10:47:53 PM >

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RE: Vichy France - 12/18/2021 11:00:11 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		You could be correct about mainland VF as it was the Germans that invaded due to Torch.

But still all of NA VF should not surrender just because Algiers was captured. Each capital for each area should have to be captured. Unless the US lands

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RE: Vichy France - 12/18/2021 11:11:11 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

Unless the US lands


That could make some sense. Not sure how easy it is to code however (to differentiate the "invader"), but I can only guess it should be possible. Vichy North Africa resisting the Axis more than the US would probably make historical sense...

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 12/18/2021 11:39:23 PM >

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RE: Vichy France - 12/19/2021 3:28:57 AM   
heliodorus04


Posts: 1647
Joined: 11/1/2008
From: Nashville TN
Status: offline 		Why? What do you know about French cooperation and capitulation to the Nazi tyranny?

The Vichy French Government was the authority over these French territories. If Petain said "I'll allow it," then it was allowed (like say, the deportation of French Jews to the concentration camps!). France's government took the position that it was modestly pro-Tripartite. When Japan demanded French Indo-China, they got it without a fight and nothing changed elsewhere. The allies continued to fear that Japan might force secession of Madagascar, threatening the entirety of the Indian Ocean. When the British fired on the French Fleet and invaded Syria, France did not retaliate nor send its Navy to be manned by the Germans or start raiding British commerce lanes.

MANY games of this type treat the Vichy territories exactly like this.

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RE: Vichy France - 12/19/2021 6:02:34 AM   
sveint


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From: Glorious Europe
Status: offline 		The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.

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Post #: 6
RE: Vichy France - 12/19/2021 12:32:58 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		The issue is that the Axis can send major forces to the Atlantic coast of NA without any interference from the Allies. And keep all of them supplied. All due to the way the naval system works and how NA VF is coded.

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RE: Vichy France - 12/19/2021 1:10:34 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.


That would be nice, but I would not make it 100% automatic. There should be a random roll with the biggest chances by far been scuttling a very small chance for capture and and a smaller one for escaping. Not dissimilar as in some games (ETO and AETO that I remember). I would not make it all or none, but a roll per ship.

The whole thing was a mess with many "rebondissements". Some ships (but not all) were technically ready to sail (most had enough fuel in despite armistice rules prohibiting it) but with not enough sailors aboard and hesitant or divided officers. At one point Laval (pro German prime minister) and the French admiral Le Luc sent orders to cancel the scuttling, but the order did not reach in time (would probably have not been obeyed by then, but who knows)...

So I would make it random to show for the randomness of war in General and ambiguity and hesitations of both Vichy Government and even more so Vichy sailors : Germans might have been a day or a few hours late and ships could leave, maybe orders from Laval arrived in time (and be obeyed; very small chance but still), maybe German were swift and did capture some ships (it was their goal after all, even bringing pioneers to disarm charges, so a small chance should be there for their operation to succeed).

Would also add some... spice...

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RE: Vichy France - 12/22/2021 6:03:15 PM   
Numdydar

 

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Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline 		In addition to the nonsense going on I have posted above, the entire German fleet sailed from Germany, around Britian, and are now based in NA ports on the Atlantic. All without a single naval battle with the Allies. And are now raiding the So. Africia convoy route. This is just madness.

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Post #: 9
RE: Vichy France - 12/22/2021 8:45:20 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		Where are the Allied Carriers?
The can smash the German fleet in port since they have to go there at some point.
Also LBA might have a shot.

There is good and bad with the Germans occupying NA...

1) The Germans have to place units there that will not be in the USSR...so now you have perhaps 4 corps no longer there.
2) The Allies can now invade with no worries that they fail to take Algiers and the Axis get more units, less in USSR.
3) The Germans have to base air here to keep the British from just bombing them for free experience from Gibraltar.

The bad.

1) German fleet can be based there...though not all in one port since none of the ports are big enough to keep all the ships fueled. The Axis better put a lot of AA or they will be smashed by carrier attacks on the port.
2) German troops now guard the ports so a bit harder for the Allies to land, though rarely impossible.

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RE: Vichy France - 12/23/2021 4:20:18 AM   
Numdydar

 

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Status: offline 		Really? My CVs are pretty much useless. I can't find the ships. When I do, they miss most of the time. So what am I missing?

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Post #: 11
RE: Vichy France - 12/23/2021 8:11:43 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Numdydar

Really? My CVs are pretty much useless. I can't find the ships. When I do, they miss most of the time. So what am I missing?


Carrier Operations 1942 is the key advancement to reach.

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Post #: 12
RE: Vichy France - 12/23/2021 10:52:22 AM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
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Status: offline 		In port they are easier to find...at least from what I have seen.

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RE: Vichy France - 12/23/2021 11:57:12 AM   
aoffen

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


Carrier Operations 1942 is the key advancement to reach.



I am not sure I see it. Why 1942? 1 extra naval attack factor is all I see. Its a big effort to get there for seemingly limited reward.

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Post #: 14
RE: Vichy France - 12/23/2021 6:03:20 PM   
stjeand


Posts: 1508
Joined: 1/10/2021
From: Aurora, NC
Status: offline 		I never update my Carriers...

I still can take out the German Navy fairly easily if they keep to sea and you keep chasing.


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Post #: 15
RE: Vichy France - 12/24/2021 7:58:03 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aoffen

quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

Carrier Operations 1942 is the key advancement to reach.


I am not sure I see it. Why 1942? 1 extra naval attack factor is all I see. Its a big effort to get there for seemingly limited reward.


A little more than this compared to leave your CVs with Carrier Operations 1939.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to aoffen)
Post #: 16
RE: Vichy France - 12/24/2021 8:55:37 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.


If there is not the fleet, what is preventing the Germans to invade Vichy France in 1940 just after accepting the surrender of France?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 17
RE: Vichy France - 12/24/2021 10:01:16 AM   
sveint


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From: Glorious Europe
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.


If there is not the fleet, what is preventing the Germans to invade Vichy France in 1940 just after accepting the surrender of France?


Nothing, but we could have the colonies join the Allies if mainland attacked.

Anything but one side getting the entire fleet.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 18
RE: Vichy France - 12/24/2021 10:38:51 AM   
ncc1701e


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e


quote:

ORIGINAL: sveint

The biggest problem is the Vichy fleet which should be scuttled.


If there is not the fleet, what is preventing the Germans to invade Vichy France in 1940 just after accepting the surrender of France?


Nothing, but we could have the colonies join the Allies if mainland attacked.

Anything but one side getting the entire fleet.


I agree with you on the fleet. Just want to balance things. But, there is something strange. Looks like this mechanism is already existing in the game rules in Europe 1941 scenario.

If Vichy France is attacked, the colonies are joining the Allies.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to sveint)
Post #: 19
RE: Vichy France - 12/24/2021 10:40:48 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		And it works.




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 20
RE: Vichy France - 12/24/2021 10:41:56 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		But, strangely enough, I see nothing about this in Europe 1939 game rules. What is the behaviour in this scenario?




Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 21
RE: Vichy France - 12/24/2021 3:17:04 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
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Status: offline 		I'll add it to the notes for the next patch.

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Post #: 22
RE: Vichy France - 12/24/2021 3:40:50 PM   
Nirosi

 

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quote:

Nothing, but we could have the colonies join the Allies if mainland attacked.


It is there already.

Edit : Oups, sorry. Did not see it was answered already.

< Message edited by Nirosi -- 12/24/2021 3:41:34 PM >

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RE: Vichy France - 12/24/2021 4:46:55 PM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

I'll add it to the notes for the next patch.


So what I am hoping you mean is that each Vichy Colony has the be attacked AND conquered separately from each other. So, no more just taking Algeria and all of VF NA becoming German or Allied. This would help a LOT in stopping some of the weird stuff going that I mention above.

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RE: Vichy France - 12/26/2021 8:57:50 AM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		So, you would like to split Vichy NA in three parts? Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia, correct?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 25
RE: Vichy France - 12/26/2021 2:05:11 PM   
Numdydar

 

Posts: 3211
Joined: 2/13/2004
Status: offline 		Yes that would be ideal. As it seems strange that Morocco would give up just because Algeria over 600 miles away was captured. Syria is already considered a separate colony so why should not the rest be treated the same way?

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RE: Vichy France - 12/26/2021 4:58:50 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		As an alternative, we may also consider that Vichy NA surrenders only if Alger, Oran and Rabat all fall in Axis or in Allies hands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch

As such, perhaps add one Vichy unit in Rabat in addition to the one in Alger.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by ncc1701e -- 12/26/2021 5:00:47 PM >

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Numdydar)
Post #: 27
RE: Vichy France - 12/27/2021 3:14:23 PM   
AlvaroSousa


Posts: 9927
Joined: 7/29/2013
Status: offline 		That is an easy solution NCC

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

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Post #: 28
RE: Vichy France - 12/27/2021 4:16:31 PM   
ncc1701e


Posts: 7380
Joined: 10/29/2013
From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
Status: offline 		Thinking of it, about the Vichy fleet, why not split it in two? Some groups at Mers el-Kébir i.e. in the port of Oran and some others still in Toulon.

This way, when Vichy NA is attacked, the Vichy fleet may counter attack with few chances but still...
And, as suggested by sveint, if Vichy mainland is attacked, the remains of the Vichy fleet in Toulon will be scuttled.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)
Post #: 29
RE: Vichy France - 12/28/2021 5:53:45 AM   
Numdydar

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ncc1701e

As an alternative, we may also consider that Vichy NA surrenders only if Alger, Oran and Rabat all fall in Axis or in Allies hands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Torch

As such, perhaps add one Vichy unit in Rabat in addition to the one in Alger.



I'd be good with this solution

(in reply to ncc1701e)
Post #: 30
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