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Finland border bug - 12/19/2021 4:33:52 AM

BRedgie

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We are playing a multiplayer 1939 campaign. The Russo-Finish war resulted in Russia gaining hexes in Finland. Russian Corps have occupied hexes 185,78 187,80 188,81 and 189,82 on the Leningrad front. It is Jun 6, 1941 and Russia is still neutral and Finland has entered the war but are neutral to Russia like Germany. Finnish units can enter all hexes in the ceded territory except for those hexes occupied by Russian Corps even though they are still neutral and being neutral the Finnish Corps do not pay for any ZOC's. We have instituted a house rule that the Finns will not take advantage of this bug but we need to know if the Finnish hexes shown as Russian in the 1941 single player scenario are always the same in the 1939 campaign.

The 1941 single player scenario with AI or hot seat does not show this problem.

Post #: 1

RE: Finland border bug - 12/19/2021 7:17:41 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Thanks I will look into it. I have in the past. Due to how I made the control systems of the game I might not be able to fix this one. 1st game I made.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to BRedgie)

Post #: 2

RE: Finland border bug - 12/19/2021 8:46:58 PM

Nirosi

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Hi Alvaro,

Could it not be possible to simply create another minor called Karelia that switches from Finish to Soviet control in Spring 1940? This way it could not be entered by Fins before Barbarossa and also could be devoid of partisans like the Baltics (which is what you whish I think)? For aesthetic reasons you could hide it "under" the map? I know nothing about coding, so no idea if my idea makes sense or if it is possible, but just in case it does, I tough I would share it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 3

RE: Finland border bug - 12/26/2021 8:36:29 AM

ncc1701e

Posts: 7380
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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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This is a good idea. Also, I wonder if we could not have a "real" winter war between USSR and Finland in the game. Today, this is just an event.

Perhaps, we could have an event saying that Finland refuses the demands of USSR end of November 1939.
Then, player may choose to declare war against Finland or not.

If USSR declares war against Finland and if USSR are able to reach Vyborg, then a separate peace will change the borders.
If USSR do not declare war against Finland, then, the borders are untouched.

The problem is that the consequences of the winter war was the direct root cause for Finland association with Germany.
So perhaps, what is better is to have an automated declaration of war end of November 1939.

The winter war lasts three months from 30 November 1939 to 13 March 1940. An occasion for Russian troops to increase their based land/air experience and to train a little bit few units by taking losses.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Nirosi)

Post #: 4

RE: Finland border bug - 12/26/2021 8:41:19 AM

ncc1701e

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There are plenty of good sources on the net to recreate the winter war:

Attachment (1)

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Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

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Post #: 5

RE: Finland border bug - 12/26/2021 10:57:50 AM

stjeand

Posts: 1508
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From: Aurora, NC
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I have been thinking about making the winter war real...but Some Russian units would have to be removed from the map for this.

The problem is Russia would send every plane, every mech, every armor and the Fins could not hold them back, especially if they build 2 or 3 armored corps.

That is not what happened in Finland. If I remember the Russians sent maybe a 100 tanks...but they could not do much most of the time due to the cold.
This would be nearly impossible to control.

Making it so that the Russians could not build any tanks or mech to start...and had only a few...would seems unfair.

Will have to think some more on it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 6

RE: Finland border bug - 12/26/2021 2:01:34 PM

ncc1701e

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I disagree everything will need to be changed. With a based land experience of 20% or 30%, the mechanized or armored corps will have a challenge to break the Finns defense. Also, if the Mannerheim Line is added on the map, Finns will be able to defend a little bit more with their existing units. The goal is not to annoy the Red Army in Finland at the end.

Odds must be there to achieve a separate peace between February and May 1940 with a start end of November 1939. Maybe this will oblige the Russian player to give few Winterized specialities...

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 7

RE: Finland border bug - 12/26/2021 6:17:50 PM

stjeand

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5-7 Russian armored corps will be the issue...no matter the experience paired with over 50 corps vs 15 divisions at best with no ZOC...or 6 small corps???
They will force Fin Divisions to retreat over and over and really won't have to.
The Fins will not be able to cover their lines which they could not in real life but the Russians did not attack with their entire army either but can in this game and would. Heck I would, why not? All the German troops are over by France so no threats loom.

Would have to test it but sadly the Russians would have too much to bare on the Finns when in reality they had to "man" their border.

What would the minus be not manning the border?

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 8

RE: Finland border bug - 12/26/2021 8:08:42 PM

ncc1701e

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USSR don't have 5-7 Russian armored corps in November 1939. Only three and one at full strength. And the offensive will be done in winter with the associated penalties.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 9

RE: Finland border bug - 12/26/2021 8:51:26 PM

stjeand

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Sorry I was off by a year.

Sadly I think it would require a lot of scripting...though possible.

When Russia goes to war it activates the reserves...so they show up. Have to remove them all from the pool then add them to the pool after...Not sure you can script adding reserves. I know you can script adding units...I suppose they could be hard coded as to arrive on specific dates but then that messes with attacks that are delayed due to weather and such.
When Russia goes to war, Finland joins Germany automatically since there is no such thing as a true neutral. So that creates an issue with German units flooding into Finland.
Russia was ill prepared for the war in Finland and actually should not be "winterized" during that war. Their forces were decimated with frostbite. I do not know a way to switch their winterization off and on...I know where you can change it permanently.

IF there is some way to make Finland be actually neutral...and for Russia to be at war I could script it.
The only way I could think of it was to have a house rule that Germany can not "help" Finland.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 10

RE: Finland border bug - 12/26/2021 9:20:16 PM

ncc1701e

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Thanks for the insights. Yes, Russia was not prepared in 1939 but, with the reform of 1940, they were better equipped for winter. But again, this is a player choice to add winterization speciality. There is nothing to script here.
If there is no way for Germany to be neutral while Finland and USSR are at war, then this brings an end to the winter war.

Perhaps Alvaro can comment if this is feasible or not in the editor.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 11

RE: Finland border bug - 12/26/2021 11:01:35 PM

stjeand

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Regarding winterization...not the specialty...but Russia as a whole is a "winterized" nation. So they do not lose efficiency in the winter like Germany.

BUT in the Winter war they were ill prepared and were like the Germans in 1941...

I could set up a winter war and see what occurs...

But sadly Germany would join...and I believe the Reserves would activate...though not 100% sure.
Also not sure if you can change from war to peace in the editor...never tried that...

I was getting decent at it but Al made very different changes in WPP so I stopped bothering to modify things heavily.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 12

RE: Finland border bug - 12/27/2021 9:09:37 AM

ncc1701e

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Out of curiosity, do you know if the border lines (the red dots line on the map) can be moved by an event script?

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to stjeand)

Post #: 13

RE: Finland border bug - 12/27/2021 3:15:55 PM

AlvaroSousa

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They can but then it creates partisans for the Soviets. But I have some ideas now thinking about it.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 14

RE: Finland border bug - 12/27/2021 3:25:07 PM

ncc1701e

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About the Finland border bug, I think the border is not well placed. In Poland, the border is already placed where USSR will be after the invasion of Poland in 1939 and in 1944.

The same thing has to be done in Finland. The red dot border must be moved to where it will be at the end of the winter war in 1939 and in 1944. So after Lake Ladoga, Petsamo, ...

And then it shall resolve the border bug since the Finns units won't be able to change the ownership of the hexes by crossing the border.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 15

RE: Finland border bug - 12/27/2021 3:27:56 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

They can but then it creates partisans for the Soviets. But I have some ideas now thinking about it.

Great! Do you think a winter war is feasible? The question of Finland and USSR at war without Germany and USSR to be at war.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 16

RE: Finland border bug - 12/29/2021 1:17:53 PM

ncc1701e

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Honestly, it would be so cool to have a real winter war for USSR. This will allow some corps at 20% experience to train themselves with losses to be in better shape for 1941 and Barbarossa. I really hope it will be feasible.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 17

RE: Finland border bug - 12/29/2021 4:25:14 PM

AlvaroSousa

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No winter war. It will be an event only.

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Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 18

RE: Finland border bug - 12/29/2021 5:19:03 PM

ncc1701e

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

No winter war. It will be an event only.

Okay so only the border bug to solve then. I hope you will consider adding the winter war in Warplan 2.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 19

RE: Finland border bug - 12/29/2021 6:02:42 PM

Nikel

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There must be something "wrong" with the Ruso-Finish front, not only the Winter War.

In WitE 1 and 2, was it not added that part of the war because it was impossible to reproduce?

< Message edited by Nikel -- 12/29/2021 6:04:29 PM >

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 20

RE: Finland border bug - 12/30/2021 8:50:48 AM

ncc1701e

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WITE1 and WITE2 are starting in June 1941 so no Winter War. The Continuation War was partialy in WITE1 since the map was not big enough. And, in WITE2, this is just a theater box if I have read correctly despite the map is there to do it.

But I agree with you, there is a kind of malediction on the Winter War like if game designers are considering it as a none event.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to Nikel)

Post #: 21

RE: Finland border bug - 12/30/2021 5:19:34 PM

AlvaroSousa

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Fighting the Winter War in a strategic level game is kind of pointless. What will it accomplish?

If the Russian player has an option I would NEVER fight the Winter War and NEVER bring Finland on the Axis side. I now have a bunch of free troops and Leningrad is better protected.

So say I fight it. Why won't I just kill the entire country and take them over?

So what is left is a player fighting for the border. Which is time consuming and unbalancing. So I made it an event.

_____________________________

Creator Kraken Studios
- WarPlan
- WarPlan Pacific

Designer Strategic Command
- Brute Force (mod) SC2
- Assault on Communism SC2
- Assault on Democracy SC2
- Map Image Importer SC3

(in reply to ncc1701e)

Post #: 22

RE: Finland border bug - 12/30/2021 6:42:14 PM

Nirosi

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What could be interesting would be an eventual small scenario like the Africa or Husky one

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 23

RE: Finland border bug - 12/30/2021 7:44:57 PM

ncc1701e

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From: Utopia Planitia Fleet Yards
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AlvaroSousa

Fighting the Winter War in a strategic level game is kind of pointless. What will it accomplish?

If the Russian player has an option I would NEVER fight the Winter War and NEVER bring Finland on the Axis side. I now have a bunch of free troops and Leningrad is better protected.

So say I fight it. Why won't I just kill the entire country and take them over?

So what is left is a player fighting for the border. Which is time consuming and unbalancing. So I made it an event.

You have a fantastic system of training. With battles you are learning experience. The Winter War last three months. This is not nothing. My idea is that Soviet corps may train a little with this.

As I said above in the thread, don't give the choice to attack or not. Russia will attack period.

The problem pointed out by stjeand is that then USSR and Germany will be at war together. Is it something you are confirming? Or, is it something that the current editor can handle i.e. Finland and USSR at war whereas Germany and USSR are still at peace? In other words, USSR neutral, Finland neutral but USSR and Finland fighting each other.

_____________________________

Chancellor Gorkon to Captain James T. Kirk:
You don't trust me, do you? I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it.

(in reply to AlvaroSousa)

Post #: 24