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Question on AI force composition - 5/18/2000 8:02:00 PM   
Moonpie

 

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I am currently playing the WWII campaign. To cut down on the length of playing time, I dropped the number of points down to 400. Since then, I have not seen a single enemy tank! I have played 6 or 7 scenarios in the campaign (in all the available theatres) with advances and delays. What is the minimum number of points I can select so that the enemy will buy tanks? I am getting tired of getting flawless decisive victories and my tankers are starting to complain that they feel underutilized.

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- 5/18/2000 8:33:00 PM   
Charles22

 

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In my opinion. if you gave me only 400 points to defend myself with, I would be hard-pressed to come up with more than a couple of tanks. You have to realize, that your enemy is trying to guard an entire front, or at least several objective areas. Also, consider that when you are on the attack, it is YOU who have 400 points, while the fellow on the defensive is restricted to a still smaller force than that.

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- 5/18/2000 9:22:00 PM   
Wild Bill

 

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Good analysis, Charles. That is precisely the problem. I would guess that 1,000 points would allow the AI to buy at least a platoon of tanks...WB ------------------ Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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- 5/18/2000 9:28:00 PM   
Moonpie

 

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quote:

In my opinion. if you gave me only 400 points to defend myself with, I would be hard-pressed to come up with more than a couple of tanks.
That is my point. They NEVER fielded ANY tanks. They have the points to pick them. But I had 400 points and I was able to buy a Medium tank section along with a mech Plt. I guess I don't see the distinction. I have the same points as the computer. If this is just an AI oversight, I can live with that, but the explaination given, doesn't make sense to me. [This message has been edited by Moonpie (edited 05-18-2000).]

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- 5/18/2000 10:12:00 PM   
Charles22

 

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Moonpie: Think of it this way, the computer is doing the right thing. Let's say the computer is the Russians, just to exaggerate the situation a bit. Lets' say it picks three KV1's and leaves fifty points to perhaps another heavy (if you could be this selective in picking) like the T28. Well, how do you cover the vast front with just four tanks? Tanks, at least ones that last past the first volley, aren't cheap enough to have any hope of covering such a vast area. The game isn't designed to work with small forces gaurding four or five areas, The only way such a small force could very feasibly defend against your attacks, and have a decent tank or two, would be if there were only one or two objective areas. Hence, the only hope the computer has for defending all that territory with such a reduced point acquisition, is to resort to cheap units, and any AT capability is pretty much reduced to AT guns, not tanks. In other words, the AI is not inclined to show flashy units, though it may often have them, it's main concern is with defeating you. Three KV1's and one T28 isn't going to defeat even a sloppily put together 400 point opponent.

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- 5/18/2000 10:28:00 PM   
Charles22

 

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I'm sorry, I grossly miscounted in comprising my imaginary Russian force there. Actually the computer could have selected five KV1's (75x5=375) and maybe a cheap unit somewhere. Most decent tanks are 30+ points, which leaves you with maybe 12 tanks with nothing else. 12 tanks still aren't enough to hold four or five objective areas. To exaggerate the situation further, you can see how reducing the force composition still further to just one hundred points would reduce you to one KV1 and basically nothing else. The AI is obviously designed around trying to make do with however a puny force you give it, so that that the lower the number the less tanks you should see, this of course would be even more necessary if the computer is the one being attacked.

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- 5/18/2000 10:50:00 PM   
Moonpie

 

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Well, okay. I can accept that. I don't like it, but I accept it. I believe in mechanized infantry so it gets a little old (actually pretty damn old ) when they rush me in mass lines of infantry only (like the russians do) and I sit back with my half tracks and shoot them up. I think my tankers are about to go AWOL for lack of firing a shot. I guess I will have to experiment some more or just give the AI a point advantage. I guess I have been spoiled with small unit action in Close Combat too long. It is good to have Steel Panthers back though. I have played this damn game everyday for hours since it was released. I haven't played a game to death like this in over 10 years! Gawd...my hand is shaking.....I gotta get back to my SP habit. Think I will quit work.

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- 5/19/2000 12:44:00 AM   
Mike Wood


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Hello... I wrote the artificial intelligence code and know why the computer is not purchasing tanks. In general, the computer opponent first buys some infantry, queen of the battle. It then looks at how many points it has and based on that, buys some tanks or artillery. It then also looks at the kind of battle it is in and may choose forts or engineers. If it has points left, it then tries to buy some armored recon or cavalry. This order differs some, from country to country and most countries have some special purchase routines, based on the fetish of that army. If the computer opponent only has 400 points to spend, it may feel it has to few points to buy an effective armor force. If you wish to computer opponent to buy armor, you have three options. One is to increase the number of points for the computer opponent from 400 to 800 or so. The second is to turn on the computer purchase advantage, which will give the computer opponent a free platoon or company of tanks. The third is to increase the number of points for both sides and buy more expensive tanks, yourself. You could also turn the purchase points to "XXXX", which would allow the computer purchase points as a factor of what you take. In this case, it will have the same number of points as you in meeting engagements, about 1/3 to 1/2 on the defense and about 1 2/3 to 2 times what you have, when attacking. As a final note, the computer opponent will sometimes get substantial "surprize reinforcements". You will not be informed of this, as they would then not be "surprize". If it recieves these or no will depend on the reserves of that country at that time in the war. Hope this helps. Bye... Michael Wood

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- 5/19/2000 12:59:00 AM   
Larry Holt

 

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I've played several campaign battles where the AI bought its forces. When the battle was over, I could review the force list of both sides. Reviewing the AI's force list showed, from the top down, a pattern of inf, armor, arty, inf, armor, arty, etc. This shows me what the AI's purchase routine is and how it weighs its decisions. In addition to being interesting from a game design perspective, its a good intelligence indicator as to what kind of force I can expect next time. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one.

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Post #: 9
- 5/19/2000 1:09:00 AM   
Charles22

 

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Moonpie: Goodness, if you're willing to put all that time into it, then why not go for the gusto? Would you rather fight with five Panthers or 10-15 (as the campaign progresses)? All that extra time a large force requires is quality time, time which otherwise would have been spent on racing around with smaller units. I know one problem you might have with larger forces, and that is that it takes so long to give all units the orders and then if you're wanting to save the game and do something, then you hate that the next time you get to playing you may have forgotten which unit you were last issuing orders to, given that a save goes back to the A0 unit. My little semi-solution to that problem, is generally, I will run through my units in reverse order using the P key. For one reason because in that way I'm more apt to expose the support, rather than the core, to drawing fire or doing the more bold stuff. In any case if you can pretty much go through your units in continual order, you can reliably write down the name of the last unit which you gave orders to, and then returning from the save to go right to that unit. Going through one unit after the other, in order, seems to speed things up, but one has to balance that with different formations concentrating on the same area and the selecting the ones that you want to take the heat first. For example, it's kind of dumb to expose spotted infantry to gun fire, by moving them first, if you know that the same gunfire won't put a dent in your Tiger, though there could be argument for not unnecessarily adding more suppression to the Tiger that way. Here's a question folks. Why not give us the ability to tweak the organizational structure of the force? What I mean by that, is why not have the core force with all the self-propelled weapons as the first formations, and the foot troops as the last ones, with of course the same thing working in the support forces? I haven't played it enough, but I THINK this may be actually happening to some degree with SPWAW (seems the SP series placed a formation as you picked it). Often I find that my third platoon picked, shows up as the 'D', but as I get deeper into picking the force, that 'D' formation may have changed to 'H'. I could see advantages to being able to also wanting formations laid out just as you pick it (sorry to be so self-defeating). For instance, perhaps I always want one formation of engineers to tag along with a certain tank formation, so that having them in order more easily accomodates me placing them together. In my case, anyway, I think I prefer self-propelled as the early units, while foot as last. If you want to execute tank orders first, you use the "N" key, and if you want to do the foot units first you use the "P" key.

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Post #: 10
- 5/19/2000 1:32:00 AM   
Pack Rat

 

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Moonpie,if you want to do small battles and make sure the AI has armor, buy it for it. Just keep the AI controls set to computer run except the buying part. ------------------ Hell On Wheels

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Post #: 11
- 5/19/2000 1:35:00 AM   
Moonpie

 

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Thank you Mike Wood! Those were the answers I was looking for! I figured it was an AI routine issue. I will definitely try your suggestions tonight. You guys should be ashamed of yourself for distributing this "computer crack".

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Post #: 12
- 5/19/2000 1:39:00 AM   
Moonpie

 

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Pack Rat, I have heard you like small unit action. Any other way? I would feel like I was cheating if I bought the computer's equipment for it, but I guess it is the only way. Any other small unit action advice?

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Post #: 13
- 5/19/2000 6:26:00 AM   
Dave R

 

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One trick that I often pulled with the earlier SP games, though not got around to trying it with WAW, so I'm not sure that it will work. When putting the core force together. I'd buy cheep 1 -2 point equipment in the first dozen or so slots, then I'd buy my proper core units. Once I'd finished, I'd delete the cheep stuff before moving onto the next stage of the set up. That way when you by the auxillary troops reccy units, or just plane cannon fodder would be forced into the vacant slots, an would be there for first move during the battle

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Post #: 14
- 5/19/2000 7:50:00 AM   
Pack Rat

 

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I like them all Moonpie. I can't think of anyother options for your type of battle. I wouldn't shed any tears for knowing what you're up againest, buy some King Tigers and have a go at them, you'll need the tears for your lost units. Think of it in terms of combat intel, thats what I do when I set up and see some of the AI's units. I do it on purpose, the AI is set up with enough battle points that I can use the information and not unbalance the battle. Good hunting !! ------------------ Hell On Wheels

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