When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade

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All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade

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When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade - 12/29/2021 6:26:12 PM

Q-Ball

Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
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Question: Is it always worth it to upgrade Japanese DDs in the early game? Seems like it is not, and you have to check upgrades carefully. What do you think?

In real life, alot of the Special-Type DDs lost their X-Turret because of stability problems, something that IN GAME doesn't matter. The higher elevation DD guns were also removed; IRL the utility of the 120 mm or 127mm guns in this role was very dubious, but IN GAME they are DP guns and more useful it seems.

IN game, the DP guns can provide AREA AA defense, while 25mm can really only provide POINT defense, i.e. they only really defend the ship they are on in the final DB or TB run. They can't do much to defend other ships.

Given this, it seems a dubious choice to remove main armament, particularly DP guns, in favor of more 25mm AA. Is this true in-game? Can more experienced players comment?

Some of the "upgrades" that I am thinking of:

KAMIKAZE class loses 1 x DP gun and 2 x Torpedo Tubes for 8 x 25mm AA
MUTSUKI loses 1 x 12cm DP gun in exchange for 9 x 25mm AA
Many of the SPECIAL TYPES lose the X-Turret and pick up 6 x 25mm AA

Later upgrades that include a Radar or the Type-2 DC might be worth the tradeoff, but seems like these early upgrades they are not

Thoughts?

I also observe that Allies really don't make these choices.....Allied upgrades are nearly always just more/better AA guns without removing anything else (except the useless 8in guns on LEXINGTONS)

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Post #: 1

RE: When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade - 12/29/2021 7:19:00 PM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

I also observe that Allies really don't make these choices.....Allied upgrades are nearly always just more/better AA guns without removing anything else (except the useless 8in guns on LEXINGTONS)

That is not entirely correct. Allied ships lose TT, sometimes a main armament turret, and many cruisers lose both TT and float plane facilities to increase AAA. Some ships downgrade all main armament, TT, and lose a boiler room to gain some range and ASW weapons. While it is true that the standard USN classes - Fletcher/Cleveland/Baltimore etc simply get more light AAA (and later swap out 20mm for 40mm), there are choices for many classes.

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"I am Alfred"

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 2

RE: When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade - 12/29/2021 8:38:10 PM

jdsrae

Posts: 2716
Joined: 3/1/2010
From: Gandangara Country
Status: offline

I agree to check upgrades carefully and only do them if the timing is right for what is happening in the game.
It depends a bit on how early you mean by early war, and what you use those classes of DD for.
I don�t rely on those old DDs for their AA capabilities.
You could triple the number of DP guns and they still wouldn�t last much longer against dive bombers, or Fletchers.
Type 2 depth charges and radars are a must for me as soon as they are available, even if that means losing a main gun.

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Currently playing my first PBEM, no house rules Scenario 1 as IJ.
AAR link (no SolInvictus): https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4684655

(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 3

RE: When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade - 12/29/2021 9:33:16 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

With planes...sad Allied example is "upgrade" from P-40K -> P-40N5. (DaBabesLite).

Gaining 1 point of durability, losing 21 mph top speed and lots of rate of climb...

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to jdsrae)

Post #: 4

RE: When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade - 12/29/2021 10:13:43 PM

Maallon

Posts: 196
Joined: 12/27/2020
From: Germany
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

With planes...sad Allied example is "upgrade" from P-40K -> P-40N5. (DaBabesLite).

Gaining 1 point of durability, losing 21 mph top speed and lots of rate of climb...

I noticed that one just yesterday, the difference between them is actually not only the durability but the range, all ranges increase by +1 with the P-40N5 Model.
But otherwise the P-40N5 is actually slightly worse than the P-40E. It's only better in high-altitude performance, but still not that good, that it could compete with IJ fighters.
The P-40K is definitely the best model in the series.

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 5

RE: When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade - 12/29/2021 11:51:50 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

With planes...sad Allied example is "upgrade" from P-40K -> P-40N5. (DaBabesLite).

Gaining 1 point of durability, losing 21 mph top speed and lots of rate of climb...

I noticed that one just yesterday, the difference between them is actually not only the durability but the range, all ranges increase by +1 with the P-40N5 Model.
But otherwise the P-40N5 is actually slightly worse than the P-40E. It's only better in high-altitude performance, but still not that good, that it could compete with IJ fighters.
The P-40K is definitely the best model in the series.

Pity that (at least in DaBabes) one better version than P-40K is produced only 7/43 and only one month, P-40N1. It is as fast as K, 1 point more durable, climbs lot better but has one hex shorter range. P-40N5 and P-40N25 are just...anemic. Good thing is that they start to be replaced by P-51B in March 1944.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to Maallon)

Post #: 6

RE: When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade - 12/30/2021 9:30:31 AM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

With planes...sad Allied example is "upgrade" from P-40K -> P-40N5. (DaBabesLite).

Gaining 1 point of durability, losing 21 mph top speed and lots of rate of climb...

I noticed that one just yesterday, the difference between them is actually not only the durability but the range, all ranges increase by +1 with the P-40N5 Model.
But otherwise the P-40N5 is actually slightly worse than the P-40E. It's only better in high-altitude performance, but still not that good, that it could compete with IJ fighters.
The P-40K is definitely the best model in the series.

Pity that (at least in DaBabes) one better version than P-40K is produced only 7/43 and only one month, P-40N1. It is as fast as K, 1 point more durable, climbs lot better but has one hex shorter range. P-40N5 and P-40N25 are just...anemic. Good thing is that they start to be replaced by P-51B in March 1944.

The N5 is the FB version without having a true FB designation.

Look at the bomb load it carries.

Replace the Ks with N1s where needed for air combat.

Replace the Ks with N5s where you need to start transitioning some fighters to the ground attack role.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 7

RE: When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade - 12/30/2021 10:40:52 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maallon

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

With planes...sad Allied example is "upgrade" from P-40K -> P-40N5. (DaBabesLite).

Gaining 1 point of durability, losing 21 mph top speed and lots of rate of climb...

I noticed that one just yesterday, the difference between them is actually not only the durability but the range, all ranges increase by +1 with the P-40N5 Model.
But otherwise the P-40N5 is actually slightly worse than the P-40E. It's only better in high-altitude performance, but still not that good, that it could compete with IJ fighters.
The P-40K is definitely the best model in the series.

Pity that (at least in DaBabes) one better version than P-40K is produced only 7/43 and only one month, P-40N1. It is as fast as K, 1 point more durable, climbs lot better but has one hex shorter range. P-40N5 and P-40N25 are just...anemic. Good thing is that they start to be replaced by P-51B in March 1944.

The N5 is the FB version without having a true FB designation.

Look at the bomb load it carries.

Replace the Ks with N1s where needed for air combat.

Replace the Ks with N5s where you need to start transitioning some fighters to the ground attack role.

K production has stopped for me in 7/43. But I can still use them where combat is high intensity, having 443 in pool.

Plus losses have been really low.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 8

RE: When an Upgrade is not an Upgrade - 12/30/2021 3:28:49 PM

Yaab

Posts: 4552
Joined: 11/8/2011
From: Poland
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Question: Is it always worth it to upgrade Japanese DDs in the early game? Seems like it is not, and you have to check upgrades carefully. What do you think?

In real life, alot of the Special-Type DDs lost their X-Turret because of stability problems, something that IN GAME doesn't matter. The higher elevation DD guns were also removed; IRL the utility of the 120 mm or 127mm guns in this role was very dubious, but IN GAME they are DP guns and more useful it seems.

IN game, the DP guns can provide AREA AA defense, while 25mm can really only provide POINT defense, i.e. they only really defend the ship they are on in the final DB or TB run. They can't do much to defend other ships.

Given this, it seems a dubious choice to remove main armament, particularly DP guns, in favor of more 25mm AA. Is this true in-game? Can more experienced players comment?

Some of the "upgrades" that I am thinking of:

KAMIKAZE class loses 1 x DP gun and 2 x Torpedo Tubes for 8 x 25mm AA
MUTSUKI loses 1 x 12cm DP gun in exchange for 9 x 25mm AA
Many of the SPECIAL TYPES lose the X-Turret and pick up 6 x 25mm AA

Later upgrades that include a Radar or the Type-2 DC might be worth the tradeoff, but seems like these early upgrades they are not

Thoughts?

I also observe that Allies really don't make these choices.....Allied upgrades are nearly always just more/better AA guns without removing anything else (except the useless 8in guns on LEXINGTONS)

There is another dilemma here.

CL/CA/BB ships have mostly zero AA in F(forward) and A(aft) positions. Thye only get a few small AA guns very late in the war. However, DDs on both sides have F and A positions covered by their DP guns from the game's start. Thus, when you lose a DP gun on a DD, not only does your TF lose one gun of their AREA defense, the DD sacrfices their F or A gun for more RS or LS POINT guns.

< Message edited by Yaab -- 12/30/2021 3:30:08 PM >

(in reply to Q-Ball)

Post #: 9