Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Tcao

TF 18's order

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ORIGINAL: dcpollay

It looks like TF 18 is set to follow TF 14. Who is TF 14? Is that the AO group? Perhaps they did not complete refueling, and so remained with the AO group to finish?

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ORIGINAL: Nomad

Tcao, I assume that English is not your mother tongue. I am having some trouble following what you did and what is the problem.

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ORIGINAL: ishtarin

I've also encountered this bug twice, though unfortunately I did not keep a save file around. The first time was a naval resupply of India with two troop transport task forces, an air transport group and three carrier task forces. There were no oilers involved but the group would stall north of Singapore for multiple days. I eventually fixed it by setting Chittagong as their home port and telling them all to return. The second time involved a resupply force of one troop and one supply task force with three carrier divisions and an oiler TF. I sent the supply force on its own mission as it was too slow to keep up with the other task forces, but it ended up being the only one moving. I had to resort to sending all of the forces on their own paths instead of following each other. The convoluted orders I sent may have been the issue, but the orders were quite clear. Two carrier divisions followed a third which was in turn followed by the replenishment. The carrier division being followed would follow the amphibious forces, while in the first scenario two of the transports followed the air transport.

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

There is another possibility here - the Carrier React feature.

Regardless of the react setting in the lower right side of the TF screen, Air Combat TFs (ACTF) with an aggressive leader can decide to move toward detected enemy ships. In your case, since one TF moved toward the AOs and the other did not, the difference could have been in the leader, or even their fuel state (TFs will retire when low on fuel or ammunition).

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ORIGINAL: Nomad

I downloaded the file and yes it does not seem to be working right. I ran it a few times changing things and it worked as you wanted.
I had the SCTF follow the ACTF and gave the ACTF orders to go to the hex the AO was in and they moved properly.

I also set both TFs to move independently to the AO and they both moved.

I do not understand why they did not move properly. I will look at the situation again a bit later.

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

I'm not convinced it's a bug. If by "normal" settings, you mean threat tolerance normal, is it possible the lacklustre Admiral Crace is failing a die roll or something?

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Test 1 :
TF 4 (2 destroyers from the Yorktown group)in the Yorktown hex with TF 27 (air combat, Yorktown). TF 4 was following TF 27.
TF 14 (australian cruiser group) and TF 16 (air combat, Lexington). TF 14 was following TF 16.

Result : All ships in all TF's were a safe distance away.

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Test 2 the other way around:
TF 14 (air combat Lexington) and TF 18 (australian cruiser group) TF 18 following TF 14
TF 4 (air combat Yorktown) and TF 16 (2 destroyers from the Yorktown group. TF 16 following TF 4.

Result : In the Lexington hex, nothing moved. A lot of damage. In the Yorktown Hex, everything moved 3 hexes and all ships were attacked. Yorktown left in sinking condition.

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ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

I did some testing as well and came across a weird result, indicating a possible bug. I am using the true WITPAE TF Numbering, not the TF-names created by the OP. *edit: In all cases the SCTF will be following the Air combat TF.

Notice that the Australian cruiser TF 18 has a higher number than the Lexington TF 14. Rerunning the turn without changing anything will result in the Lexington TF not moving.

If you delete TF 18 (the Australian cruiser group) and replace it with the newly created TF 4 (the first available TF number, lower than the air combat TF number) with the same orders as the previous TF 18 -> follow TF 14, (the Lexington group), everything will turn out fine. All TF's will be safe.

If, however, you delete TF 18 and replace it with a number higher than TF 14. (again TF 18, or TF 27, the first available number after TF 18), both groups will not move and will get attacked.

The same trick goes for the Yorktown group! TF 16 is the air combat TF from the Yorktown, if you create a SCTF in this hex with a number lower than 16 (TF 4 for instance) and set it to follow the Yorktown group, than all ships are fine. If, however, the SCTF you created in the Yorktown hex has a higher number than 16. The Yorktown group will barely move and be attacked.

The last tests I did were (After some fiddling and creating of TF's):

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Test 1 :
TF 4 (2 destroyers from the Yorktown group)in the Yorktown hex with TF 27 (air combat, Yorktown). TF 4 was following TF 27.
TF 14 (australian cruiser group) and TF 16 (air combat, Lexington). TF 14 was following TF 16.

Result : All ships in all TF's were a safe distance away.

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Test 2 the other way around:
TF 14 (air combat Lexington) and TF 18 (australian cruiser group) TF 18 following TF 14
TF 4 (air combat Yorktown) and TF 16 (2 destroyers from the Yorktown group. TF 16 following TF 4.

Result : In the Lexington hex, nothing moved. A lot of damage. In the Yorktown Hex, everything moved 3 hexes and all ships were attacked. Yorktown left in sinking condition.

On the surface of it, in this small setting with a lot of unknown parameters :
If the higher numbered TF is following the lower numbered TF, problems result on the same day that the orders were given (that's all I tested, I never tested a day later).
If, everything else being equal, the lower numbered TF is following the higher numbered TF, things will go as expected.

It seems that TF orders inside the code are being processed starting from TF 1 and going up.
When the TF, that is being followed, check's if it's being followed it apparently needs some info or a setting from the TF that is following it, before it can process it's own actions appropriately. A setting or piece of info that the following TF hasn't processed or set yet, because of it's higher number.

Anyway, I might be wrong, but it is a testable theory.





edit: added that in all cases the SCTF is following the air combat TF.

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ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

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ORIGINAL: Miller

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ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

I've read that you need to have the transports follow the surface fleets. Or, you have to try and create a surface fleet with a low task force number. One of those two options help to have the surface fleet engage first, instead of the transport task force.

Surely there is a way of programming the game so that the TF number is not the deciding factor And it still does not explain why neither SCTF even got a shot at the Allied ships

Unless the player gives some other instruction, the TFs do indeed move in the order created. Follow allows the player to control the order of move and the spacing between the TFs.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2530951&mpage=1&key=don%2CBowen%2Cfollow%2Corders�

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ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


The options here are pretty straight forward and, I think, very logical.

Remain On Station, No Reaction.
Orders the TF to stay somewhere, with no options. TF will remain "on station" until forced to retire by low fuel/ammo, accumulated damage, defeat by enemy, or orders by player. This was the only option in original WITP.

Remain On Station, Reaction ordered
Orders are generally contradictory but might be useful in some circumstances. TF will remain on station until something causes it to react (or any of the things above). Once it reacts it will retire. Sort of like a picket.

Patrol Zone(s), No Reaction
TF will patrol the specified hexes until forced to retire (damage, fuel, etc. - as above).

Patrol Zone(s), Reaction ordered
TF will patrol as above, will react to enemy as required. After reaction will either retire or resume patrol, depending on (you guessed it) fuel, ammo, damage.


A separate item is Reaction and follow. Follow is mutually exclusive with Patrol so there is no interaction there.

Follow with no Reaction
Just Follows, ignores enemy if possible and just tags along.

Follow with Reaction Ordered
Follows but will react to enemy when conditions are met. After reaction will return to follow.


Glad to know I'm a Guru. I'll bring that up next cocktail party.


https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3445936&mpage=1&key=follow%2Corders�

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

....


Yes, the AI handles the movement in order of TF#. This is not a new discovery - I've advocated it for years as part of the discussion of follow failures from daisy-chained TFs. When someone mentioned daisy-chained follow near the start of this thread I assumed everyone knew about the TF# being part of the explanation so I did not rehash that. But I forget that this issue hasn't come up in a while and newer players may not know those discussions from a couple of years ago. Sorry for not posting on that detail which led to your testing for the same result!

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ORIGINAL: tolsdorff

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ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

....


Yes, the AI handles the movement in order of TF#. This is not a new discovery - I've advocated it for years as part of the discussion of follow failures from daisy-chained TFs. When someone mentioned daisy-chained follow near the start of this thread I assumed everyone knew about the TF# being part of the explanation so I did not rehash that. But I forget that this issue hasn't come up in a while and newer players may not know those discussions from a couple of years ago. Sorry for not posting on that detail which led to your testing for the same result!

Ah, ok, makes sense you already knew that! Don't worry about it. I don't mind wasting time testing things myself. It's how I learn best.

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ORIGINAL: Ian R

The answer here, may as BBFB said, to do with TF reactions canceling your best laid plans
....
The answer to Tcao's initial question: I think there is a distinct possibility this is WAD, and WAD is complicated. The IJN CVTF is TF1 in this scenario. So, according to Mr Bowen it moves first, and comes sniffing around your guys. If you rerun the turn, and Aubrey Fitch, sniffing the IJN CVTF, passed the reaction die roll that pulled him back towards them. Crace just followed orders.