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Fixing China - 12/30/2021 8:39:27 PM

hansondavid4

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Joined: 11/10/2019
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The Problem with China:
Once you are playing a competent Axis opponent the understand supplies and logistics, China seem doomed to collapse against the Japanese onslaught. Japan has most of the units they need at start or on the production spiral for free. They receive all the units they need for the initial Pacific campaign so you need not divery resources to building naval landing units and such. You will only need to hold back some MMP�s at the correct time to load them up in their transfers. The crush China, there are just a few keys to success:
1 you will only need to buy a few units, such as artillery;
2 you need to research INF-2 and Artillary-1 ASAP; then improve your ground support when practical.
3 Make sure you are keeping your spear point well supplied and in command.
4 Shift the Armies and Corps from Manchuria, replacing them with Garrisons.

You will have no trouble getting positive attrition while steadily increasing your unit experience and destroying key Chinese positions. Once the artillery arrives things get easier; once they are upgraded, it is plain easy.
China can only keep up with the attrition war initially but by 1940 you will knock out some Industrial centers and resources and they will fall way behind. This are pretty desperate for China in 1941 and are sliding fast.
This is very ahistorical. Japan captured Nanning at the end of 1939; but that was about the extent of strategic action for much of the early war. They were repulse three times going after Changsha and did not take it until 1944.

Below is a picture of the last grind down of China (I was China and thought I did pretty well). I am a couple turns from completely shattering.

Some ideas for changes to slow down the Japanese advance.

Create Supply problem: If Japan does not have primary supply and is limited to level 5 supply via ports, this could make the long interior advances more difficult. An HQ on a city would throw level 8 supply. This will be quickly reduced in the mountains.

Create a Partisan problem: Add a lot more partisans behind the initial starting boundaries. If they need to garrision every hex on their supply line, this would make long interior attacks more challenging.
Add economic aid from USSR: The initial 200 in helpful but does not continue. Have a �convoy� option of 50 mmp a turn from USSR to flow through some of their lend lease might create an interesting dilemma for the Allies. Both are in desperate need of MMP�s. Who gets them?

Create a 3 hex US mobilization buffer around Kweichow: The US mobilization barrier seems to help in the north but Japan has a free hand to undercut China in the South. I think this might give a place to retreat and regroup in 1940 after Japan overruns Changsha.

Add US entry impact for Changsha and Chengchow: The loss of there is very impactful on China. US mobilization for these may help offset or delay how soon Japan wants to take these.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by hansondavid4 -- 12/30/2021 9:03:42 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 12:45:54 AM

DavidDailey

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These are all excellent points. Unfortunately, since most players are trying to create a more equitable situation in the European theater Axis players are getting away with murder in China and the Pacific. You don't see many posts about the Pacific theater, which reflects the Eurocentric background of most players. The developers respond based on the volume of discussion about a situation. This neglected theater must be addressed.

(in reply to hansondavid4)

Post #: 2

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 1:49:56 AM

Elessar2

Posts: 883
Joined: 11/30/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hansondavid4

The Problem with China:

Create a Partisan problem: Add a lot more partisans behind the initial starting boundaries. If they need to garrision every hex on their supply line, this would make long interior attacks more challenging.

I've suggested this before; the number of anti-partisan garrisons needed is miniscule in comparison to the territory held, and for the supply partisans can be laissez-faire for garrisoning towns not on his axis of advance. The Japanese simply didn't have the manpower to police the entire countryside of a nation as huge as China, which became the domain of various warlords & roving bands of irregulars; the IJA typically only garrisoned cities and major towns and railheads.

They'll need those garrisons in the Pacific; force the Japanese player to make some tough choices as to where to commit his relatively meager manpower.

(in reply to hansondavid4)

Post #: 3

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 1:55:24 AM

havoc1371

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As the Chinese, be aggressive early; any opportunity to destroy an overextended Japanese unit with low readiness. Often Chinese units can slip right past a Japanese corps and into a city. If you can take a couple Japanese held NM cities, this brings down their national morale, which in turn lessens their combat potential. This is a difficult balance, if you overdue it, you lose too many units. Rotate out Chinese units that are getting beat up with a fresh unit. Fortifications work well with this, because even if you move in without swapping hexes, they start at 2/4 fortification level.

Build AA's and Artillery. Get your infantry weapons levels and Infantry warfare. Rebuild the * corps and armies, as they are cheaper and return faster, but if you are not desperate for another unit, invest for that weapons, command, AA, upgrade.

Do not pull back and give up cities, thinking you are buying time. This ends up damaging your national morale and is a down hill slide to surrender, as you lose key cities that your outside aid comes through. If you lose a key city, many of them will spawn Chinese units as "survivors" regrouping; I use some of these as reserve, or to guard the routes to the alternate capitals. Don't give up the Communist capital if you still have their units, as they'll just surrender when it falls. If you do have an aggressive Axis opponent who tends to press their units too far, then pull back a hex or two where you can and see if they pursue. But have an fresh army waiting behind to jump forward and trash them. Low supply, worn down Japanese units can be easy kills.

Above all, do damage to Japanese units; this attrition wears their force down and is mpp's not spent on research and upgrades for the coming fight with the U.S. China is not done till the final alternate capital falls; make sure your engineer is busy fortifying key cities and roadways. Make the Axis player fight for each hex.

(in reply to DavidDailey)

Post #: 4

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 2:32:38 AM

ThunderLizard11

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Pacific is a side show. Best to hold Axis off with a few well places forts and AA units. At some point, too much MPP spent against China deflates Japs push elsewhere like India and Burma.

(in reply to havoc1371)

Post #: 5

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 2:43:55 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

Posts: 1108
Joined: 7/2/2020
From: Republic of Cascadia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: havoc1371

As the Chinese, be aggressive early; any opportunity to destroy an overextended Japanese unit with low readiness. Often Chinese units can slip right past a Japanese corps and into a city. If you can take a couple Japanese held NM cities, this brings down their national morale, which in turn lessens their combat potential. This is a difficult balance, if you overdue it, you lose too many units. Rotate out Chinese units that are getting beat up with a fresh unit. Fortifications work well with this, because even if you move in without swapping hexes, they start at 2/4 fortification level.

Build AA's and Artillery. Get your infantry weapons levels and Infantry warfare. Rebuild the * corps and armies, as they are cheaper and return faster, but if you are not desperate for another unit, invest for that weapons, command, AA, upgrade.

Do not pull back and give up cities, thinking you are buying time. This ends up damaging your national morale and is a down hill slide to surrender, as you lose key cities that your outside aid comes through. If you lose a key city, many of them will spawn Chinese units as "survivors" regrouping; I use some of these as reserve, or to guard the routes to the alternate capitals. Don't give up the Communist capital if you still have their units, as they'll just surrender when it falls. If you do have an aggressive Axis opponent who tends to press their units too far, then pull back a hex or two where you can and see if they pursue. But have an fresh army waiting behind to jump forward and trash them. Low supply, worn down Japanese units can be easy kills.

Above all, do damage to Japanese units; this attrition wears their force down and is mpp's not spent on research and upgrades for the coming fight with the U.S. China is not done till the final alternate capital falls; make sure your engineer is busy fortifying key cities and roadways. Make the Axis player fight for each hex.

With the existing version...all of the above is great advice. I found CC maxed early essential for China also. Elessar's points concerning more partisans also a great idea.
When I finally moved over to play WaW last year..one of the first things I noticed was how weak China was..and how easy it was for Japan to sweep the south in particular.

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(in reply to havoc1371)

Post #: 6

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 3:03:24 AM

hansondavid4

Posts: 44
Joined: 11/10/2019
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: havoc1371

As the Chinese, be aggressive early; any opportunity to destroy an overextended Japanese unit with low readiness. Often Chinese units can slip right past a Japanese corps and into a city. If you can take a couple Japanese held NM cities, this brings down their national morale, which in turn lessens their combat potential. This is a difficult balance, if you overdue it, you lose too many units. Rotate out Chinese units that are getting beat up with a fresh unit. Fortifications work well with this, because even if you move in without swapping hexes, they start at 2/4 fortification level.

Build AA's and Artillery. Get your infantry weapons levels and Infantry warfare. Rebuild the * corps and armies, as they are cheaper and return faster, but if you are not desperate for another unit, invest for that weapons, command, AA, upgrade.

Do not pull back and give up cities, thinking you are buying time. This ends up damaging your national morale and is a down hill slide to surrender, as you lose key cities that your outside aid comes through. If you lose a key city, many of them will spawn Chinese units as "survivors" regrouping; I use some of these as reserve, or to guard the routes to the alternate capitals. Don't give up the Communist capital if you still have their units, as they'll just surrender when it falls. If you do have an aggressive Axis opponent who tends to press their units too far, then pull back a hex or two where you can and see if they pursue. But have an fresh army waiting behind to jump forward and trash them. Low supply, worn down Japanese units can be easy kills.

Above all, do damage to Japanese units; this attrition wears their force down and is mpp's not spent on research and upgrades for the coming fight with the U.S. China is not done till the final alternate capital falls; make sure your engineer is busy fortifying key cities and roadways. Make the Axis player fight for each hex.

Most of what you say is good advice (AA gun, rotating units, fortifying axis of advance) that were used. I caution too aggressive is counter productive to China unless the Japanese really leave an opening. If you try to force things your units will be cut off and killed rather than shattered. My opponent tried this tactic in an early game and did not work well. A good Japanese player is not going to leave these sort of openings. It is not hard to rail a couple of armies from Manchuria to plug up the soft spots that can lead to a city loss. When I see China try this I just smile. Adding to negative attrition will just hasten the end of China.

The attrition you speak of is generally in Japans favor. China is one step behind in quality and experience to the Japanese units. If you are fighting a axis player when understand the supple and logistics, the Japanese army is never in less than 6 supply. Usually higher on the main line of advance. You can usually feel like you are doing pretty well in the beginning. I usually feel pretty good about 1940. The basic problem is that it is a war of attrition and when China drops to 130 MMP production a turn, after they lose a few key areas and then they just slide down hill. They are losing twice as much as they are producing turn in and turn out. Meanwhile, Japan can make good all the loses. By 1942, they are pretty much dead and Japan has a large, very experience (3 dots) armies with nothing better to do then roll into the USSR, India or wherever ease they want to go after Japan establishes its initial parameter. Yes is cost you 2 years of war production... but you have a great army to throw at the US, UK or USSR.

< Message edited by hansondavid4 -- 12/31/2021 3:10:29 AM >

(in reply to havoc1371)

Post #: 7

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 3:20:10 AM

hansondavid4

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Joined: 11/10/2019
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThunderLizard2

Pacific is a side show. Best to hold Axis off with a few well places forts and AA units. At some point, too much MPP spent against China deflates Japs push elsewhere like India and Burma.

Unless the investment causes China to largely collapse by the end of 1942 and Japan can unleash a very powerful army on India and Burma... That is the basic issue. For Japan, grinding China into a rump power is an investment to freeing up this very same army. Push them back far enough you can then hold them back with minimal forces.

I agree that Killing China does not win the war. If Europe goes south for the axis, Japan cannot hold out against the world. But I think it deserve some attention.

(in reply to ThunderLizard11)

Post #: 8

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 5:53:13 AM

Marcinos1985

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Joined: 1/22/2020
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quote:

Most of what you say is good advice (AA gun, rotating units, fortifying axis of advance) that were used. I caution too aggressive is counter productive to China unless the Japanese really leave an opening. If you try to force things your units will be cut off and killed rather than shattered. My opponent tried this tactic in an early game and did not work well. A good Japanese player is not going to leave these sort of openings. It is not hard to rail a couple of armies from Manchuria to plug up the soft spots that can lead to a city loss. When I see China try this I just smile. Adding to negative attrition will just hasten the end of China.

The attrition you speak of is generally in Japans favor. China is one step behind in quality and experience to the Japanese units. If you are fighting a axis player when understand the supple and logistics, the Japanese army is never in less than 6 supply. Usually higher on the main line of advance. You can usually feel like you are doing pretty well in the beginning. I usually feel pretty good about 1940. The basic problem is that it is a war of attrition and when China drops to 130 MMP production a turn, after they lose a few key areas and then they just slide down hill. They are losing twice as much as they are producing turn in and turn out. Meanwhile, Japan can make good all the loses. By 1942, they are pretty much dead and Japan has a large, very experience (3 dots) armies with nothing better to do then roll into the USSR, India or wherever ease they want to go after Japan establishes its initial parameter. Yes is cost you 2 years of war production... but you have a great army to throw at the US, UK or USSR.

Excellent write-up, couldn't agree more.
No experienced Axis player will allow penetration from Chinese troops, bar alone capturing any NM city. JAP troops are so superior they will stop aggression swiftly and kill stragglers. Then China is toast even faster.
At the same time, buying artillery, and even C&C tech is usually a luxury for China, coming from slow JAP play. If IJA plays in an optmized way and puts pressure on from turn 1, spending around 500-600 on auxillary things will only make JAP move faster. Before patch, very good players were able to take Chonqing in middle of 1941, that's how fast you can be.
Much was already done to help CHN. But core issues still remain. These are:
1) Changsha precarious position. For some reason the city which fell in 1944, in WaW falls usually early 1940. Reason is really easy. Forward defenses of CHN around of city consist of corps, which are attacked by armies. What is more, these armies are experienced, and XP is very noteworthy in SC games. Central Expedition Army starts with 2 dots of XP, making it the best unit in the game in the beginning (and for a long time). Combine it with good HQ, medium bomber, and those forward corps evaporate in first 3 turns of the game, and then city is on its own. Question is - were CHN really that outnumbered there? Why JAP units are experienced, and CHN aren't? Was JAP army that much in position to attack the city in 1939/40? Compare it to Chengchow - armies entrenched there are way more resilient and require some effort to remove.
When (not if) Changsha is gone, MPP's are lost and rail to Nanning is cut, so supply drops there - you must bring an HQ there quickly? How? Shift-clicking through mountains of course with a fighter - most people despise it, but it's the fastest route, and time is of essence.
2) Kweichow not on US radar. In recent patch there was addition, that causes US mob to grow if JAP comes 2 hexes from Chonqing. Guess what - Kweichow is 3 hexes away. JAP can take it and proceed to Kunming, sutting down all help for CHN. Why ot was made like this, when activation for Yunnan is 3 hexes, I can't tell.
3) No help from US for 1,5 years. This one puzzles me, but my history knowledge is very modest here. Was China reaaly without help from US for that long? In the game, taking Haiphong port away causes no influx of supplies from US. They will be back as soon as Burma in in action, so around end of 1941. At this time CHN will pump out around 120-130 MPP, so will not be able to rebuild its armies in one turn, leaving its defence awkward. But was this really the case? Did this occur historically? Or did Burma road fuction earlier? Maybe CHN shouldn't be denied US aid so easily, this would help greatly.

These are problems I see, and I believe 2&3 may be adressed relatively easily. First point is a tricky one.
One must remember this front is not in a vacuum. China shouldn't be able to seriously challenge Japan, as in reality, because this would shut down Pacific game entirely. Just make them strong enough not to fall that early, without super serious commitment aka abandoning Pacific. I am personally afraid that nerfing JAP in China will lead them to go for USSR even more, even at the cost of other gains, contrary to what happened IRL. But that's just me.

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(in reply to hansondavid4)

Post #: 9

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 7:21:38 AM

Platoonist

Posts: 1342
Joined: 5/11/2003
From: Kila Hana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marcinos1985

1) Changsha precarious position. For some reason the city which fell in 1944, in WaW falls usually early 1940. Reason is really easy. Forward defenses of CHN around of city consist of corps, which are attacked by armies. What is more, these armies are experienced, and XP is very noteworthy in SC games. Central Expedition Army starts with 2 dots of XP, making it the best unit in the game in the beginning (and for a long time). Combine it with good HQ, medium bomber, and those forward corps evaporate in first 3 turns of the game, and then city is on its own. Question is - were CHN really that outnumbered there? Why JAP units are experienced, and CHN aren't? Was JAP army that much in position to attack the city in 1939/40? Compare it to Chengchow - armies entrenched there are way more resilient and require some effort to remove.

During the course of World War Two the Japanese were defeated three times between 1939 and 1942 in offensives directed towards Changsa, usually retreating back towards Wuhan with heavy losses. A scenario that seems almost impossible in the game. Ultimately, the city didn't fall until the Ichi-go offensive of 1944 and then it fell easily.

The limited offensive capacity of all the parties in the China conflict (including the communists and warlords) is what led to the observation of a de facto truce for months a time between the Japanese and each of the Chinese factions where the front lines didn't budge an inch.

The Japanese Army was heavily dependent on the rail system, which was still quite limited in China and tended to dictate the avenues of advance. With Japanese operations thus canalized, the Chinese had numerous opportunities for surprise attacks and harassment, though these were seldom exploited very effectively

Nationalist acquiescence in the Japanese occupation of much of China was primarily the result of Chiang's calculation that Japan's ultimate defeat was assured. So better to hoard your strength for the future battle with Mao's Communist faction.

American liaison teams coming to China after the outbreak of the Pacific War were shocked to find that this de facto truce prevailed in so much of the country that a flourishing trade existed across no-mans land. Indeed, it was the one standing American grievance that throughout the war the Japanese consistently outbid the United States for Nationalist-supplied tungsten which was routinely traded across the front line between China and Japan.

There are so many weird, complex and multifarious factors that color the war in China that I don't know if any game can completely simulate them.

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Post #: 10

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 12:31:44 PM

firsteds

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Joined: 3/24/2021
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quote:

3) No help from US for 1,5 years. This one puzzles me, but my history knowledge is very modest here. Was China reaaly without help from US for that long? In the game, taking Haiphong port away causes no influx of supplies from US. They will be back as soon as Burma in in action, so around end of 1941. At this time CHN will pump out around 120-130 MPP, so will not be able to rebuild its armies in one turn, leaving its defence awkward. But was this really the case? Did this occur historically? Or did Burma road fuction earlier? Maybe CHN shouldn't be denied US aid so easily, this would help greatly.

In a recent patch (maybe a few patches ago) Burma's starting mobilisation was increased to 65% so that the Allies only need a few diplo hits to get them to join. It is easy to get them onside before (or soon after) the Haiphong event and then the Burma Road kicks in straight away. Plenty of supplies for China just when they are really needed plus a morale boost (I think). Also, with Burma in the war, Indian units can start moving closer to the frontline to help China save key cities just after Pearl Harbour. You also get a weak corps in Rangoon, plus a decent strategic port and an oil well.

I am always trying to find ways for shifting money from UK/US/India to USSR/China for the Allies. This one is easier than some other options.

On the overall balance issue I think the current version is about right, The US diplo hit has been a great help - either because it fires or because it acts as a disincentive to Japan in the North, leaving the Allies to focus on defending the South.

My only suggested change is for the devs to place one research chit in Chinese Infantry Warfare at the start. This would reflect history (they have been at war for years!) and will take some pressure off those early MPP decisions.

Good book on the subject: 'Forgotten Ally' by Rana Mitter.

(in reply to Platoonist)

Post #: 11

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 8:17:03 PM

Jackmck

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One has to be careful about fixing China as it could quickly become an existential challenge for Japan. Japan really has to conquer most of China just to defend against the Allies later in the war. Once the Allies are able to move a HQ and airpower into southern China, Japan will not be able to hold its positions.

Its hard from a game design perspective to fix this. I like the new changes that provide some trade offs for a quick conquest of China, namely increased US tensions. Maybe looking at supply limitations is a good idea- but has to apply to both sides. Infrastructure in interior China was quite poor anyway so maybe reducing the ability of units to be in full supply except in cities would perhaps favor defense enough for both. But for now, its worth waiting to see how play goes with the recent changes.

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Post #: 12

RE: Fixing China - 12/31/2021 11:57:18 PM

Elessar2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OldCrowBalthazor

With the existing version...all of the above is great advice. I found CC maxed early essential for China also. Elessar's points concerning more partisans also a great idea.
When I finally moved over to play WaW last year..one of the first things I noticed was how weak China was..and how easy it was for Japan to sweep the south in particular.

As OCB himself can attest, if you can save up and buy the two Chinese tank units, and (once attached to a good HQ like Stilwell) use them to snipe at overextended Japanese units which just moved forward and thus have just L1 Entrenchment, that can help as well. [As he also successfully argued, these units were likely ahistorical, but vanilla still allows you to spring for them]

< Message edited by Elessar2 -- 1/7/2022 12:55:13 AM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Fixing China - 1/1/2022 5:07:51 AM

redrum68

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jackmck
One has to be careful about fixing China as it could quickly become an existential challenge for Japan. Japan really has to conquer most of China just to defend against the Allies later in the war. Once the Allies are able to move a HQ and airpower into southern China, Japan will not be able to hold its positions.

Its hard from a game design perspective to fix this. I like the new changes that provide some trade offs for a quick conquest of China, namely increased US tensions. Maybe looking at supply limitations is a good idea- but has to apply to both sides. Infrastructure in interior China was quite poor anyway so maybe reducing the ability of units to be in full supply except in cities would perhaps favor defense enough for both. But for now, its worth waiting to see how play goes with the recent changes.

Its pretty easy to avoid the US mobilization hit for quite a while as there are no trigger cities in the south. So you can avoid it until you are ready to take their capital.

IMO, the issue is not so much how fast Japan expands in 1939-1940 but how weak China becomes after they lose some of the initial cities. If more production was shifted further back in China that would potentially allow them to put up a better defense in 1941+.

(in reply to Jackmck)

Post #: 14

RE: Fixing China - 1/2/2022 2:27:17 AM

hansondavid4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redrum68

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jackmck
One has to be careful about fixing China as it could quickly become an existential challenge for Japan. Japan really has to conquer most of China just to defend against the Allies later in the war. Once the Allies are able to move a HQ and airpower into southern China, Japan will not be able to hold its positions.

Its hard from a game design perspective to fix this. I like the new changes that provide some trade offs for a quick conquest of China, namely increased US tensions. Maybe looking at supply limitations is a good idea- but has to apply to both sides. Infrastructure in interior China was quite poor anyway so maybe reducing the ability of units to be in full supply except in cities would perhaps favor defense enough for both. But for now, its worth waiting to see how play goes with the recent changes.

Its pretty easy to avoid the US mobilization hit for quite a while as there are no trigger cities in the south. So you can avoid it until you are ready to take their capital.

IMO, the issue is not so much how fast Japan expands in 1939-1940 but how weak China becomes after they lose some of the initial cities. If more production was shifted further back in China that would potentially allow them to put up a better defense in 1941+.

I agree. It ends up a positive feedback loop as the Japan gains ground. Japanese production goes and and China's goes down. China quickly hits a tipping point when they cannot replace the loses and things go down hill pretty quickly. This seems to happen in 1941. If there were more aid once the USSR is in the war would help or do a similar thing with the Soviet lend lease and double the value to China for flying over the Hump (60 rather than 30). Having them pass some through to China can be an interesting Allied dilemma.

(in reply to redrum68)

Post #: 15

RE: Fixing China - 1/2/2022 5:40:32 PM

Jackmck

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Here are a couple of ideas to try as an Allied player to defend China before making game design changes:

1. Diplomacy for Burma- if successful, will help China's resources in the attrition war. (A little frustrating if not successful though)

2. Double up research for Infantry Warfare- China's army is mostly infantry- big difference when China has infantry warfare and Japan does not. If both countries start their research for this from the beginning, they might not get this until late 1940. I think it's a worth it for China to go double for this so that it reaches this by mid 1940- it will get 62 points back and mid 1940 is a critical time for China's defense.

3. Double up on Command and Control Research- China has enough surplus to pursue this early. Doubling up on this in 1939 will ensure level 1 by mid 1940- This will help a lot.

4. Use of AA units for defense. A fortifed/entrenched AA unit does a pretty good job resisting attacks- and they are inexpensive to reinforce/replace. Later on they are good to inflict more damage on Japan air units- at least inflicting more costs on Japan before China falls.

5. Artillery- quite necessary for defense- try to procure two soon.

To afford the above, China really has to minimize losses. I would be very reluctant to attack - even an even exchange will be more than China can afford for the first year or so.

In the end though, Japan air power will prevail against China unless there is other intervention. If Japan invests in Heavy Bombers there is little China can do except trying to maximize the damage before surrender. There are trade offs for this though since bombers are expensive leaving less resources for Japan's offensive against the West.

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Post #: 16

RE: Fixing China - 1/6/2022 3:03:11 PM

Chernobyl

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The way I was personally envisioning improving the China situation:

-China starts with higher NM
-China begins with a chit being researched in infantry weapons
-China gets +1 production tech to start
-Changsha gets some forts in the neighboring hexes
-A couple Japanese army units in Manchuria don't appear until 1941
-A couple Japanese units in Japan don't appear until 1941
-Japan's strategic bomber in the production queue is changed to a couple naval bombers

(in reply to Jackmck)

Post #: 17

RE: Fixing China - 1/9/2022 1:31:17 AM

OldCrowBalthazor

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chernobyl

The way I was personally envisioning improving the China situation:

-China starts with higher NM
-China begins with a chit being researched in infantry weapons
-China gets +1 production tech to start
-Changsha gets some forts in the neighboring hexes
-A couple Japanese army units in Manchuria don't appear until 1941
-A couple Japanese units in Japan don't appear until 1941
-Japan's strategic bomber in the production queue is changed to a couple naval bombers

Pretty interesting ideas here Chernobyl. Yeah...I like them. The idea of the maritime bombers instead of the strategic bomber might finally steer the Japanese to Pacific ambitions..which is their achilles heel anyway if ignored.

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(in reply to Chernobyl)

Post #: 18

RE: Fixing China - 1/9/2022 3:10:57 AM

ThunderLizard11

Posts: 573
Joined: 2/28/2018
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China's fine the way it is. Stenghten more than a slight amount and Japan will be doomed.

(in reply to OldCrowBalthazor)

Post #: 19

RE: Fixing China - 1/9/2022 12:42:46 PM

Laurenz

Posts: 38
Joined: 5/29/2021
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Disclaimer: Everything that follows is my perspective from playing mostly PBME+ matches and being at best moderately competent at it.

I think, historically and from a gameplay perspective the role of the China Japan conflict should be:

a) The theater that makes the rounds before Barbarossa interesting
b) A location that binds considerable Japanese resources
c) Unless Japan invests into China to a degree that delays/ weakens their actions in the pacific early on (later they should have more resources, long-term payoffs is what makes strategy games fun)

That means the state the conflict in China should be in is:

a) There should not be a stalemate from the beginning, so Japan should have initial goals, and the means to achieve them
b) The Chinese should not roll over and die to quickly, and require continuous reinvestment from the Japanese to not cross a tipping point and get into a losing/stalemate position, so there needs to be obvious breakpoints, that could allow China to stabilize/ require even more investment from the Jap.
c) To unbind the local resources and overcome the money drain on their economy, the Japanese should be able to effectively deal with China, if (and only if) they make a considerable investment into the theater (considerable here means that in other theatres their presence would eb weaker)

The situation in China how I perceive it:

a) The moving arrival points of American support, the major cities close to the boarder, and later the capital are great goals for the Japanese, and the lvl 2 exp army is the tool to get there.
b) Here is the biggest problem in my opinion. A competent Axis player gets a lvl 3 army, attached to a lvl 3 HQ, and does 0:5 against a Chinese army in a fortification in the mountains (after some de-trenchment of course). This involves 0 risk. There will never be 3 points of HP lost on that army, so it never loses EXP. That means Japan just grinds through China with little investment, and worst of all no counterplay.
c) While investing considerable into China (buying heavy artillery or bombers) certainly makes them fall earlier, it is just not required. The starting units alone (with some infantry research you want to do anyhow) will reduce the Chinese issue to a barely noticeable minimum by the time you attack the US.

Looking at those points the critical ingredient missing is a tipping point for China to work towards, where they can stabilize the front and therefore perpetuate the current level off MPP losses for the Japanese (unless major investments are made).

There should be a chain of tipping points (and counter measures the Japanese can invest in), but the first one clearly should be a way to deal with the lvl 3 army. That means the Chinese need a way to get enough concentrated force to deal 4-6 points of dmg to a lvl 3 army 1-2 infantry techs ahead, at 1-2 entrenchment in the mountains.

I am not quite sure what this tipping point could be (maybe it is artillery, and I am just too inexperienced to get that working in time), but I think fixing this issue alone, could likely let the other pieces fall into place. Something closer to my �ideal� situation has come about in some of my games where this experienced army was not used to its full potential (left in very bad supply, or just not reinforced to full elite strength after unlucky HP losses, so this chipping dmg could accumulate).

I likely said a few stupid things so let me know & sorry for the long post!

(in reply to ThunderLizard11)

Post #: 20

RE: Fixing China - 1/9/2022 10:10:03 PM

Chernobyl

Posts: 444
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Other possible tweaks:

-Japan could lose 1 level of Infantry Weapons tech (change to 1 chit currently being researched) but gain Infantry Warfare to start. Not sure if this makes Japan overall stronger or weaker initially in China and I'd have to test it, but Japanese troops having a morale advantage feels more historical to me than giving them top tier infantry weapons (which they never actually had). Japan begins with 10 upgraded land units and 12 unupgraded land units (corps, army, SF). Any upgraded land unit the Chinese manage to destroy early in the war would be a slightly bigger win for China (no upgrade available on buyback). Assuming this does make Japan weaker overall on offense, it feels right to me.

-As Laurenz suggests, perhaps the super high experience Japanese armies should be toned down a bit

-Kind of off topic but I would also boost Japan's navy to start. Particularly Heavy Cruisers are low compared to what they actually had (seriously they had 20 CA historically but only get one CA unit in this game). Kongo should really be two BC and not one BB. I could be wrong (wouldn't want to unbalance things for the worse) but I feel the Allies have relatively easy naval supremacy and the Japanese fleet is a bit puny. I think it could be fun to make their surface navy more scary (while at the same time making China tougher to break and leaving Japan just as vulnerable to subs). I see in some MP games the allies wind up able to rule the Pacific (crowd DEI convoy route with surface vessels) pretty early which wasn't close to what happened historically.

< Message edited by Chernobyl -- 1/9/2022 10:13:36 PM >

(in reply to Laurenz)

Post #: 21