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Stacking?? - 12/30/2021 6:34:15 PM

abulbulian

Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline

So how is stacking coded in the game? It must be associated to the map data as I don't see it in the editor. If making a custom scenario how can you adjust stacking for locations? is there a way to just turn it off in the game options. Don't see it unless I'm missing something.

Thanks

_____________________________

- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2

"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu

Post #: 1

RE: Stacking?? - 12/30/2021 6:55:47 PM

rockmedic109

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline

Islands will have a max number of troops it can hold. Going over this will cause an increase in supply usage. Some islands are limited to 6,000 or 30,000 men. Full land hexes are unlimited. This is listed in Troop Capacity in the middle column of the base screen.

OOPS. I did not read your question right. Sorry.

I think you are right and it is done by the map. I am not aware of any way to change it in the editor, but my knowledge of the editor is limited.

< Message edited by rockmedic109 -- 12/30/2021 6:57:58 PM >

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 2

RE: Stacking?? - 12/30/2021 7:30:47 PM

abulbulian

Posts: 1047
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline

Yeah, saw the rules on it. So have to be careful on stacking

8.9 ISLAND AND ATOLL STACKING
Islands and Atolls fall into several categories. Each category has a maximum limit of men that
can be stationed on the island:
�� Very small (1) = 6,000
�� Small (2) = 30,000
�� Medium (3)= 60,000
�� Large (4)= Unlimited
�� Very large (0) = Unlimited
The stacking limit is visible on the base information screen. For example, a very small atoll can
have a maximum of 6,000 men before it starts to suffer penalties.
Penalties include:
�� 1 - 5 Fatigue and Disruption to ALL units if base is overstacked
�� Supply usage increases for every 10% over the stacking limit; supply
usage increases by an additional 20% UNCAPPED for both sides (e.g.
if an atoll has a 6,000 man limit and has 12,000 man garrison, supply
usage will increase from 100% to 300% i.e. the base supply for 10,000
men plus a special wastage allowance of 200% of normal supply.)
Over the long term, overstacking an atoll with a 6,000 man limit with 9,000 men will hurt the
defender badly. However, an attacker can successfully assault that atoll with 7,500 men if he
lands quickly, keeps control of the sea lanes and continuously offloads supplies. Once the base
is captured, the attacker should relieve the overstacking quickly.
Typically the defender will have a mix of combat and service units

< Message edited by abulbulian -- 12/30/2021 7:31:32 PM >

_____________________________

- Beta Tester WitE and ATG
- Alpha/Beta Tester WitW and WitE2

"Invincibility lies in the defence; the possibility of victory in the attack." - Sun Tzu

(in reply to rockmedic109)

Post #: 3

RE: Stacking?? - 12/30/2021 7:51:30 PM

Nomad

Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline

The map editor is still available from here

This thread is where dwbradley give the loctation https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=3560562&mpage=1&key=map%2Ceditor%26%2365533%3B

< Message edited by Nomad -- 12/30/2021 7:52:35 PM >

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 4

RE: Stacking?? - 12/30/2021 9:37:31 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

So how is stacking coded in the game? It must be associated to the map data as I don't see it in the editor. If making a custom scenario how can you adjust stacking for locations? is there a way to just turn it off in the game options. Don't see it unless I'm missing something.

Thanks

Some user-created scenarios use a modified map that has a stacking limit for every land hex. The Da Big Babes site ( https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/dabigbabes ) has this map on its last page and another version called the Extended Map that has a few places where more land and bases have been added. So those four map types are:
- stock map that comes with the game and stacking limits only on smaller islands
- stock map with stacking limits everywhere on land
- extended map with stacking limits everywhere
- extended map with same stacking limits as the stock map

Recently there have been efforts described in this forum to fix some minor map data errors and to create an extended map that can be had from the forum, rather than the DBB site. I am unclear whether those efforts are officially sanctioned or more user-provided mods.

One thing you must understand before swapping maps: the artwork you see when you look at the map is eye candy for you. The computer uses a set of data files that describe the features of every hex (e.g. press the "R" key to see the roads the computer uses, note that the road segments all go from center of hex to a hex side).
If you change maps you must get the right files in the right directory for it to work. And of course, save the original map files in a safe location before bringing in replacements!.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to abulbulian)

Post #: 5

RE: Stacking?? - 12/31/2021 10:54:17 AM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

So how is stacking coded in the game? It must be associated to the map data as I don't see it in the editor. If making a custom scenario how can you adjust stacking for locations? is there a way to just turn it off in the game options. Don't see it unless I'm missing something.

Thanks

Some user-created scenarios use a modified map that has a stacking limit for every land hex. The Da Big Babes site ( https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/dabigbabes ) has this map on its last page and another version called the Extended Map that has a few places where more land and bases have been added. So those four map types are:
- stock map that comes with the game and stacking limits only on smaller islands
- stock map with stacking limits everywhere on land
- extended map with stacking limits everywhere
- extended map with same stacking limits as the stock map

Recently there have been efforts described in this forum to fix some minor map data errors and to create an extended map that can be had from the forum, rather than the DBB site. I am unclear whether those efforts are officially sanctioned or more user-provided mods.

One thing you must understand before swapping maps: the artwork you see when you look at the map is eye candy for you. The computer uses a set of data files that describe the features of every hex (e.g. press the "R" key to see the roads the computer uses, note that the road segments all go from center of hex to a hex side).
If you change maps you must get the right files in the right directory for it to work. And of course, save the original map files in a safe location before bringing in replacements!.

Stacking limits everywhere has a HUGE impact on large scale siege battles.

Some of us are so addicted to stacking limits everywhere that we will never go back to playing with limits only for small islands.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to BBfanboy)

Post #: 6

RE: Stacking?? - 12/31/2021 4:57:22 PM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

So how is stacking coded in the game? It must be associated to the map data as I don't see it in the editor. If making a custom scenario how can you adjust stacking for locations? is there a way to just turn it off in the game options. Don't see it unless I'm missing something.

Thanks

Some user-created scenarios use a modified map that has a stacking limit for every land hex. The Da Big Babes site ( https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/dabigbabes ) has this map on its last page and another version called the Extended Map that has a few places where more land and bases have been added. So those four map types are:
- stock map that comes with the game and stacking limits only on smaller islands
- stock map with stacking limits everywhere on land
- extended map with stacking limits everywhere
- extended map with same stacking limits as the stock map

Recently there have been efforts described in this forum to fix some minor map data errors and to create an extended map that can be had from the forum, rather than the DBB site. I am unclear whether those efforts are officially sanctioned or more user-provided mods.

One thing you must understand before swapping maps: the artwork you see when you look at the map is eye candy for you. The computer uses a set of data files that describe the features of every hex (e.g. press the "R" key to see the roads the computer uses, note that the road segments all go from center of hex to a hex side).
If you change maps you must get the right files in the right directory for it to work. And of course, save the original map files in a safe location before bringing in replacements!.

Nice write up. Andrew Brown did make these new stacking limits for his newly updated maps. I believe that is what you are referring to?

https://sites.google.com/view/witp-ae-maps-and-scenarios/home/updated-extended-map

Seeing as most of the old vets prefer the stacking everywhere I will probably be dumping my favorite Kamikaze Bellum map next game and switching to Andrew Brown's newest updated maps with stacking limits everywhere. Harder to see in my opinion (all of the yellows in China) but the map data is much improved!

The problem with Dababes is it is outdated. I don't think it was updated with the latest patches...

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/2/2022 5:59:51 PM >

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Post #: 7

RE: Stacking?? - 1/2/2022 8:58:23 AM

Jellicoe

Posts: 157
Joined: 9/26/2012
From: Kent, UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: abulbulian

So how is stacking coded in the game? It must be associated to the map data as I don't see it in the editor. If making a custom scenario how can you adjust stacking for locations? is there a way to just turn it off in the game options. Don't see it unless I'm missing something.

Thanks

Some user-created scenarios use a modified map that has a stacking limit for every land hex. The Da Big Babes site ( https://sites.google.com/site/dababeswitpae/dabigbabes ) has this map on its last page and another version called the Extended Map that has a few places where more land and bases have been added. So those four map types are:
- stock map that comes with the game and stacking limits only on smaller islands
- stock map with stacking limits everywhere on land
- extended map with stacking limits everywhere
- extended map with same stacking limits as the stock map

Recently there have been efforts described in this forum to fix some minor map data errors and to create an extended map that can be had from the forum, rather than the DBB site. I am unclear whether those efforts are officially sanctioned or more user-provided mods.

One thing you must understand before swapping maps: the artwork you see when you look at the map is eye candy for you. The computer uses a set of data files that describe the features of every hex (e.g. press the "R" key to see the roads the computer uses, note that the road segments all go from center of hex to a hex side).
If you change maps you must get the right files in the right directory for it to work. And of course, save the original map files in a safe location before bringing in replacements!.

Stacking limits everywhere has a HUGE impact on large scale siege battles.

Some of us are so addicted to stacking limits everywhere that we will never go back to playing with limits only for small islands.

quote:

Stacking limits everywhere has a HUGE impact on large scale siege battles.

Some of us are so addicted to stacking limits everywhere that we will never go back to playing with limits only for small islands.

+1 !!!!!

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 8

RE: Stacking?? - 1/2/2022 9:06:05 AM

LowesyPC

Posts: 28
Joined: 1/1/2022
Status: offline

Thank you for all this! I would have messed up and committed far too many troops to an island battle and wondered why the hell it all went wrong.

(in reply to Jellicoe)

Post #: 9

RE: Stacking?? - 1/2/2022 10:48:19 AM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LowesyPC

Thank you for all this! I would have messed up and committed far too many troops to an island battle and wondered why the hell it all went wrong.

Hold the boats there -

If you are attacking an atoll, take a sledgehammer, not a tack hammer, and then take some pure tank units as an added extra.

You can overstack to your heart's content AS LONG AS YOU POUR IN ENOUGH SUPPLY. Then you can pick your marine division(s) right back up and take them back to Waikiki to prepare for the next target.

Overstacking land units directly causes increases supply consumption; everything else is indirect and relates to insufficient supply, so there is your out. There is a very good post on this by Alfred, you should search it up.

Example:

There are some bases in the Marshalls that can be built to a "5" airbase. By locating an Air HQ on or nearby them, you can create an ersatz level 9 airbase, meaning no air unit stacking limits penalties on air ops. However, you may well have to overstack ground units to get enough AV etc in there to support a big 4E base. No problem, if you pour enough supply in there you'll be fine.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 1/2/2022 10:50:07 AM >

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to LowesyPC)

Post #: 10

RE: Stacking?? - 1/2/2022 1:08:56 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

Atoll combat is very bloody and consists of shock attack.

As said above, bring tank battalions, preferably 2-3 plus marines. I sometimes even bring floating reserve of regiment or 2 if 1 USMC div seems to have difficulties.

Good axiom of atoll/island combat is: There are 2 kind of places, those who are worth attacking with a lot (big hammer) and those that are not worth attacking. There is no real middle ground.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 1/2/2022 1:10:30 PM >

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(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 11

RE: Stacking?? - 1/2/2022 7:37:23 PM

BBfanboy

Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Atoll combat is very bloody and consists of shock attack.

As said above, bring tank battalions, preferably 2-3 plus marines. I sometimes even bring floating reserve of regiment or 2 if 1 USMC div seems to have difficulties.

Good axiom of atoll/island combat is: There are 2 kind of places, those who are worth attacking with a lot (big hammer) and those that are not worth attacking. There is no real middle ground.

And the supply issue for the overstack is best solved with a 'supply only' Amphib TF that can unload supply while the troops are landing. Otherwise, the supply on the troop ships is the last thing unloaded - days later in some cases.
After it has been loaded at origin port, the 'supply only' ships can be merged with the troop ships if you don't want another TF to escort and give orders to.

_____________________________

No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 12

RE: Stacking?? - 1/4/2022 3:57:57 AM

LargeSlowTarget

Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
The problem with Dababes is it is outdated. I don't think it was updated with the latest patches...

No it is not outdated.

DaBabes is a family of data sets which can be used with any patch version.

Patches are changes in the executable file (game engine). There are no patches which contain changes made specifically for the DaBabes mod - this would render the game engine incompatible with stock scenarios [Well, there is an enhanced but strictly private exe version used by an AE Dev and DaBabes author that adds some nice features, but unfortunately we mortals won't ever get our hands on this version].

The stacking limits are not part of the game engine, they are stored in map data files which - like the scenario files and the AI files - are data sets used by but seperate from the executable file.

Finally there are the art files, like the map graphics, which are .bmp files (the map graphics should match the map data, which is not always the case).

In other words, adding stacking limits or other modifications to map data (like more bases) and map graphics (like matching the terrain displayed with the terrain data) has nothing to do with the patch version of the game engine.

There a several DaBabes variants, having in common that the "A" variants being compatible with stock map data, art and AI files, while the "B" and "C" versions require specific map data and specific map art files ("extended map").

The "stacking limits" are part of the map data set. There are always stacking limits on atolls and small islands in both stock and all DaBabes scenarios, but the "extended map" scenarios have been designed with additional stacking limits in every land hex.

However, in order to please everybody's preferences, the DaBabes Team also provides map data sets that apply the additional stacking limits on the stock map and the stock stacking limits on the extended map.

_____________________________

AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022

(in reply to Tanaka)

Post #: 13

RE: Stacking?? - 1/4/2022 8:46:53 AM

Ian R

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline

Some chat forums have a feature, where, if someone posts things that are misleading/silly/wrong, the other forumites can contribute "thumbs down" to it - and when a sufficient quantity thereof accumulate, the poster gets blocked from posting for a month.

Does the forum software here support such a feature?

_____________________________

"I am Alfred"

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)

Post #: 14

RE: Stacking?? - 1/4/2022 2:06:08 PM

HansBolter

Posts: 7704
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Some chat forums have a feature, where, if someone posts things that are misleading/silly/wrong, the other forumites can contribute "thumbs down" to it - and when a sufficient quantity thereof accumulate, the poster gets blocked from posting for a month.

Does the forum software here support such a feature?

Damn. That sounds about as ripe for abuse as it gets.

So once a clique forms they can manage who is and isn't allowed to post.

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

_____________________________

Hans

(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 15

RE: Stacking?? - 1/4/2022 2:18:50 PM

rockmedic109

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Some chat forums have a feature, where, if someone posts things that are misleading/silly/wrong, the other forumites can contribute "thumbs down" to it - and when a sufficient quantity thereof accumulate, the poster gets blocked from posting for a month.

Does the forum software here support such a feature?

The problem with this is that sometimes the post is wrong because the rules have changed from what the poster knew to be fact from reading the manual or an earlier update readme. Also with the many changes from the various updates, it is sometimes difficult to keep them straight or you miss reading a line in the vast sea of lines in the update.

(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 16

RE: Stacking?? - 1/4/2022 6:05:13 PM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LargeSlowTarget

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka
The problem with Dababes is it is outdated. I don't think it was updated with the latest patches...

No it is not outdated.

DaBabes is a family of data sets which can be used with any patch version.

Patches are changes in the executable file (game engine). There are no patches which contain changes made specifically for the DaBabes mod - this would render the game engine incompatible with stock scenarios [Well, there is an enhanced but strictly private exe version used by an AE Dev and DaBabes author that adds some nice features, but unfortunately we mortals won't ever get our hands on this version].

The stacking limits are not part of the game engine, they are stored in map data files which - like the scenario files and the AI files - are data sets used by but seperate from the executable file.

Finally there are the art files, like the map graphics, which are .bmp files (the map graphics should match the map data, which is not always the case).

In other words, adding stacking limits or other modifications to map data (like more bases) and map graphics (like matching the terrain displayed with the terrain data) has nothing to do with the patch version of the game engine.

There a several DaBabes variants, having in common that the "A" variants being compatible with stock map data, art and AI files, while the "B" and "C" versions require specific map data and specific map art files ("extended map").

The "stacking limits" are part of the map data set. There are always stacking limits on atolls and small islands in both stock and all DaBabes scenarios, but the "extended map" scenarios have been designed with additional stacking limits in every land hex.

However, in order to please everybody's preferences, the DaBabes Team also provides map data sets that apply the additional stacking limits on the stock map and the stock stacking limits on the extended map.

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I had seen others posted it was outdated from more recent patches and wondered why. Then I checked the date of the last beta was 2016 and the last DaBabes scenario update was 2015. I knew that about stacking limits and art but was was more referring to patch/beta scenario fixes not being applied to Dababes. I figured any official or beta scenario fixes did not make it into Dababes? Or maybe by 2015 there were no more scenario fixes? Thanks for the clarification without the insults.

< Message edited by Tanaka -- 1/4/2022 6:23:39 PM >

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Post #: 17

RE: Stacking?? - 1/4/2022 6:38:40 PM

Tanaka

Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Some chat forums have a feature, where, if someone posts things that are misleading/silly/wrong, the other forumites can contribute "thumbs down" to it - and when a sufficient quantity thereof accumulate, the poster gets blocked from posting for a month.

Does the forum software here support such a feature?

Damn. That sounds about as ripe for abuse as it gets.

So once a clique forms they can manage who is and isn't allowed to post.

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

Yep it's called being a forum Nazi. Human stupidity at it's finest. This is pretty much what Alfred, Ian R, and Mind-Messing were attempting to do for a very long time by taking over the forum with their insults and intimidation and chest beating of superiority. Since Erik Rutkins came in and put a stop to it the ones left are still having a hissy fit about it with each insult they continue to slyly post. Sometimes I wonder if the other two are really just Alfred in disguise because they act exactly the same with no originality. Whoever they are they are apparently NEVER going to stop with this kindergarten I rule the forum and am superior BS...GROW UP

_____________________________

(in reply to HansBolter)

Post #: 18

RE: Stacking?? - 1/4/2022 7:12:06 PM

RangerJoe

Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Some chat forums have a feature, where, if someone posts things that are misleading/silly/wrong, the other forumites can contribute "thumbs down" to it - and when a sufficient quantity thereof accumulate, the poster gets blocked from posting for a month.

Does the forum software here support such a feature?

I don't know about blocking the person from posting but pointing out the errors with citations for the correct information does help except when the person considers that the correction is a personal insult simply because that individual was

INCORRECT!

That said, I give less value to certain comments from certain people . . .

_____________________________

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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(in reply to Ian R)

Post #: 19

RE: Stacking?? - 1/4/2022 7:36:28 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tanaka

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansBolter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Some chat forums have a feature, where, if someone posts things that are misleading/silly/wrong, the other forumites can contribute "thumbs down" to it - and when a sufficient quantity thereof accumulate, the poster gets blocked from posting for a month.

Does the forum software here support such a feature?

Damn. That sounds about as ripe for abuse as it gets.

So once a clique forms they can manage who is and isn't allowed to post.

Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

Yep it's called being a forum Nazi. Human stupidity at it's finest. This is pretty much what Alfred, Ian R, and Mind-Messing were attempting to do for a very long time by taking over the forum with their insults and intimidation and chest beating of superiority. Since Erik Rutkins came in and put a stop to it the ones left are still having a hissy fit about it with each insult they continue to slyly post. Sometimes I wonder if the other two are really just Alfred in disguise because they act exactly the same with no originality. Whoever they are they are apparently NEVER going to stop with this kindergarten I rule the forum and am superior BS...GROW UP

Ok, this was reported for moderation and it's pretty clear. I gave you an official warning last time to set the personal attacks aside. Calling out people personally on the forum is against the rules and this post is trolling, which is against the forum rules. If there are issues going on that I'm missing, the way to deal with that is to let me know, not to make posts like this.

Given that you were already warned to knock it off, you now have a one week ban from the forum to think things over.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC